Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[JeanClt]

I’ll say a one last thing
My crystal ball says if you’re happy with Legacy Union, you’ll be happy Gateway Station. 

We have not seen any details yet from the designer…if you have insight that others here don’t, please let us know. I’m not sure what you’re basing your opinions on? Is it speculation and pure pessimism or something you know that we do not?

At least say why you think what you think.

[AirNostrumMAD]

1 hour ago, JeanClt said:

We have not seen any details yet from the designer…if you have insight that others here don’t, please let us know. I’m not sure what you’re basing your opinions on? Is it speculation and pure pessimism or something you know that we do not?

At least say why you think what you think.

No inside information. And I don’t like that you call it “pessimism”. I’m not being pessimistic. Really, I just think it’s odd to poo poo RUS a little and praise Gateway because I just think. RUS ya know. Has it going on. 
 

I think it will be a lovely train Amtrak station for a station with the ridership Charlotte will have (especially compared to the current Amshack). Seriously, I wouldn’t be surprised if ridership 2019 between 6am & 9pm was 500/day. I know service will increase but it’ll still be a fraction of say Wilmington Delaware.

But I don’t think it will do much to contribute to a stroll district or create a meaningful area in the way that for example RUS will be.  They have breweries, food halls, urban outfitters, the new tallest in Raleigh will accompany the new Phase II, commuter rail is very likely and possibly by 2030. Lots of bars and great areas and again,  it’s no farther From the center of downtown Raleigh as Gateway is to trade/tryon (and besides, most Amtrak stations have terrible locations worse such as Philadelphia, Baltimore, etc) 
 

 

Charlotte can’t just Build what the warehouse district is. It has been shown several times. When Charlotte does mega projects, it ultimately turns out to be as exciting as Legacy Union. Maybe this will be different, but I’m not holding my breathe again for another mega project to create a vibrant area. 
 

So I do think the station will be nice. I do think it will lead to development. I just think the development will feel as soulful as Legacy Union. Grand. Great at what it’s supposed to do. But office towers aren’t going to make a neighborhood. FNB tower will still suck. The back of the baseball stadium is still there, several other developments are not redeemable for pedestrians on Graham, I think Gateway Village has more potential to feel vibrant but I just think too many errors have been made along Graham.
 

I think what will be transformative is developers being held to higher standards. More facade saves. I think a long time ago, it was said a developer wanted to get rid of these buildings on Trade https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/402-W-Trade-St-Charlotte-NC/21643840/https://www.loopnet.com/Listing/402-W-Trade-St-Charlotte-NC/21643840/ luckily it seems like that’s not the plan anymore? SouthEnd is losing too many buildings. Luckilyyyy, there’s still plenty of SouthEnd that hasn’t been bulldozed that leads to a sense of community and the large developments have followed that lead. But uptown…

Maybe the city could do more to subsidize local restaurant folk in these new developments. 
 

 

 

Edited December 28, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[JeanClt]

I have utilized RUS a few times so trust I myself am not “poo poo” talking it down. It’s a great station and has transformed and will continue to do so the area that surrounds it. The difference between RUS and CGS is that one is built and one isn’t respectively. We can talk about RUS and it what it does a great job in and what needs work. CGS doesn’t exist yet that is why I was confused by your remarks.

Truly would love closer connections between the two cities by rail since I have traveled up to Raleigh quite a few times this year. Rail is an option I’m willing to take over a car despite it being nearly an hour longer. I think these two stations is a step in the right direction for sustainability in intercity travel in NC especially between the two great populations centers. I’m sure and hopeful both areas will thrive as intended. If either do not it would be a shame. Raleigh has a head start but I wouldn’t count out Charlotte so quickly.

[davidclt]

4 hours ago, TheRealClayton said:

This is being designed by one of the top architecture firms in the world Skidmore, Owings & Merrill. It has an incredible amount of public activation. 

Now we just have to keep the Accountants and "Value" Engineers away from it and let it be fully realized as envisioned.

[blopp1234]

On 12/26/2021 at 6:41 PM, AirNostrumMAD said:

Probably not a lot. And those taking the intercity bus from Charlotte probably aren’t going to be able to leisurely afford to stroll around uptown or enjoy surrounding amenities. 

The current CTC bus station has wayyy more foot traffic. 
 

Raleigh Union Station is really nice. It will probably always have more trains than Charlotte. But I personally don’t foresee Charlotte’s Gateway being nearly as vibrant as Raleigh Union Station - particularly the surrounding area.

I highly disagree, both with the surrounding area vibrancy comments and with the level of train service that will be offered. 
 

there are so many parking lots surrounding the site. That large parking garage across from Bank of America field seems primed for redevelopment, especially if the panthers decide to build a new stadium in the city, which seems like it will be likely as they have one of the older stadiums in the league where the life cycle of stadiums is much shorter than it used to be. That plus the surrounding gateway parcels, the remaining parking lots to the east and all that land to the west of the tracks could lead to thousands, if not tens of thousands of housing units. 
 

And as far as Raleigh always having more trains than Charlotte, I wholeheartedly disagree. Raleigh is limited by the amount of intercity routes branching out from the city. They really can only have service to Richmond via the S-line, Greensboro via the NCRR, Columbia via the S-line and eastern North Carolina, most of which are smaller cities, not exceeding 300,000 in metro population. Charlotte has the planned HSR to Atlanta, service to Raleigh, as well as DC and the Virginia piedmont via the old southern route, Wilmington via the old s-line via hamlet and pembroke and Columbia via NS, which also gives access to Savannah, Charleston and Augusta. With a city the size of Charlotte with a high growth rate, that’s a lot of midsized and large cities that could have direct access to Charlotte via rail. Charlotte also has multiple regional lines that could run at high frequencies to places like kannapolis, Monroe, Davidson, rock hill and Gastonia. That’s a lot of potential train service if NC and it’s neighboring states get very serious about passenger rail over the next few decades.

 

[Blue_Devil]

In all honesty, I feel like Redline should be a priority one way or another to make this station truly work. I know NS is not budging, but everyone has a number. I am hopeful with Winston Salem starting to want to use NS track it will help push them in the right direction. But having the Redline come in would be huge. 

[ajfunder]

11 hours ago, Blue_Devil said:

In all honesty, I feel like Redline should be a priority one way or another to make this station truly work. I know NS is not budging, but everyone has a number. I am hopeful with Winston Salem starting to want to use NS track it will help push them in the right direction. But having the Redline come in would be huge. 

Red Line would be big. Silver Line would be bigger as by nature it will run far more often. That being said, I do believe CATS has prioritized the Red Line above the Silver Line in their build out proposal, assuming a deal can be struck with NS.

[B Randy]

1 hour ago, ajfunder said:

Red Line would be big. Silver Line would be bigger as by nature it will run far more often. That being said, I do believe CATS has prioritized the Red Line above the Silver Line in their build out proposal, assuming a deal can be struck with NS.

Don’t sleep on the mode nobody’s talking about in this thread. If silver comes in - potential for epic rail trail interactivity that stitches a bunch of uptown/ adjacent networks together. 

[JeanClt]

Commuter rail would help relieve a lot of the strain on Charlottes interstates and commuter arteries. Redline would be a great start, but I think there could be moree

[Blue_Devil]

12 hours ago, ajfunder said:

Red Line would be big. Silver Line would be bigger as by nature it will run far more often. That being said, I do believe CATS has prioritized the Red Line above the Silver Line in their build out proposal, assuming a deal can be struck with NS.

I am assuming its because if they can get Redline started there will be more political favor from the northern section of the county. 

[ajfunder]

14 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Commuter rail would help relieve a lot of the strain on Charlottes interstates and commuter arteries. Redline would be a great start, but I think there could be moree

I see no reason why we couldn't have peak commuter rail on the NCRR to Salisbury. A pipe dream of mine would have it terminate on the NC Transportation Museum property with a final stop in Spencer. Lots of state owned land and existing rail infrastructure for equipment layover and storage.

I get the need for NS to maintain the NCRR corridor from a cost perspective, but I do wish the state would flex its muscles a bit. Taking over dispatching from NS which is notoriously poor at dispatching passenger rail would be a huge improvement on the NCRR. This would not improve O Line negotiations though.

CATS must be careful with the North Line. They cannot promise the Red Line without an agreement in place prior to the vote, otherwise this will very likely blow-up in their face.

 

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by ajfunder

[kermit]

6 hours ago, ajfunder said:

I see no reason why we couldn't have peak commuter rail on the NCRR to Salisbury. A pipe dream of mine would have it terminate on the NC Transportation Museum property with a final stop in Spencer. Lots of state owned land and existing rail infrastructure for equipment layover and storage.

I get the need for NS to maintain the NCRR corridor from a cost perspective, but I do wish the state would flex its muscles a bit. Taking over dispatching from NS which is notoriously poor at dispatching passenger rail would be a huge improvement on the NCRR. This would not improve O Line negotiations though.

CATS must be careful with the North Line. They cannot promise the Red Line without an agreement in place prior to the vote, otherwise this will very likely blow-up in their face.

I think this post gets at the core of the Red Line issues. NS is NEVER gonna give permission to CATS / Mecklenburg county to use the O-Line tracks (Mecklenburg and CATS has zero leverage). But, NS might be willing to listen to the state and entertain some tradeoffs on their use of the NCRR  in return for access to the O-Line. I get the feeling that NS is a bit unnerved about the prospect of lots of passenger rail expansion on the NCRR so I don't think we will see any movement on the Red Line until the state gets involved as is able to negotiate freight rights and access on the NCRR and the O-Line simultaneously. 

 

 

Edited December 30, 2021 by kermit

[JeanClt]

Mecklenburg County should threaten Eminent Domain for the sake of more efficient and sustainable mobility over the greedy Oligarchical freight companies who want to prioritize their slow snail trains over fast efficient passenger trains.

[Windsurfer]

4 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

Mecklenburg County should threaten Eminent Domain for the sake of more efficient and sustainable mobility over the greedy Oligarchical freight companies who want to prioritize their slow snail trains over fast efficient passenger trains.

The railroad companies would argue freight is a LOT more "efficient" and sustainable.  Lower cost to maintain rails,  fewer time constraints, fewer lawsuits (from people twisting their ankles climbing aboard to actual deaths by accidents)  more fuel efficient than trucking, etc. etc. 

 

[JeanClt]

The railroad companies would argue freight is a LOT more "efficient" and sustainable.  Lower cost to maintain rails,  fewer time constraints, fewer lawsuits (from people twisting their ankles climbing aboard to actual deaths by accidents)  more fuel efficient than trucking, etc. etc. 
 

It was in blue font (a joke) for a reason… Trains are in fact the most efficient mode of transportation on land of goods (freight) or people (passenger). Like any company the freight companies have their best interest in mind. (Though I never mentioned anything about them not being efficient…Cargo ships are actually much more efficient and are pretty slow themselves). When I mentioned them being slow, I was referring to their speed relative to passenger rail which are typically a lot higher.

[kermit]

3 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Mecklenburg County should threaten Eminent Domain for the sake of more efficient and sustainable mobility over the greedy Oligarchical freight companies who want to prioritize their slow snail trains over fast efficient passenger trains.

It’s blue text so I apologize for taking this literally. Railroads are exempt from eminent domain — their land cannot be repurposed that way. Congress sensibly gave RRs this exemption since it would be impossible to maintain their networks if towns were acquiring their land without consent.

Edited December 29, 2021 by kermit

[ajfunder]

5 hours ago, kermit said:

I think this post gets at the core of the Red Line issues. NS is NEVER gonna give permission to CATS / Mecklenburg county to use the O-Line tracks (Mecklenburg and CATS has zero leverage). But, NS might be willing to listen to the state and entertain some tradeoffs on their use of the NCRR  in return for access to the O-Line. I get the feeling that NS is a bit unnerved about the prospect of lots of passenger rail expansion on the NCRR so I don't think we will see any movement on the Red Line until the state gets involved as is able to negotiate freight rights and access on the NCRR as well as the O-Line. 

 

 

Agreed that is NS's perspective. I work for a Class 1 Railroad and it is very true we do have our interest in mind for obvious reasons. That being said, NS is far more obstructionist than the Class 1 I work for. We have a set, publicly available list of requirements for participating in commuter and intercity projects. If you meet those guidelines, we almost always are willing to come to the table because we see it as a business opportunity. NS from what I can see does not.

We also operate commuter rail on two of our busiest rail lines in Chicago (~90 commuter trips) and Seattle (~26 commuter trips) and we are able to coexist and dispatch trains effectively. These lines are far busier than the NCRR and the O-Line for that matter from a freight perspective. We also have an A rating for Amtrak dispatching. Pretty sure NS has an F. 

It is all about internal attitudes. NS and CSX for that matter are the two most anti-passenger rail companies out there. Just look at the Gulf Passenger rail debacle. What sucks for Charlotte is that these are the two companies we are forced to deal with.

Passenger rail and freight can coexist and even thrive if both parties are willing. The O-line is half Out-of-Service and the rest sees one train a few days a week. There is absolutely no need for double track on the O-Line, and to be honest, what Charlotte has proposed (a complete rebuild, CTC, PTC, and passing sidings) is more than reasonable. Agreed, the state holds the ultimate trump card by owning the NCRR, and truly will be critical to making the Red Line ever happen.

Edited December 29, 2021 by ajfunder

[TheMightyBK]

Agreed that is NS's perspective. I work for a Class 1 Railroad and it is very true we do have our interest in mind for obvious reasons. That being said, NS is far more obstructionist than the Class 1 I work for. We have a set, publicly available list of requirements for participating in commuter and intercity projects. If you meet those guidelines, we almost always are willing to come to the table because we see it as a business opportunity. NS from what I can see does not.
We also operate commuter rail on two of our busiest rail lines in Chicago (~90 commuter trips) and Seattle (~26 commuter trips) and we are able to coexist and dispatch trains effectively. These lines are far busier than the NCRR and the O-Line for that matter from a freight perspective. We also have an A rating for Amtrak dispatching. Pretty sure NS has an F. 
It is all about internal attitudes. NS and CSX for that matter are the two most anti-passenger rail companies out there. Just look at the Gulf Passenger rail debacle. What sucks for Charlotte is that these are the two companies we are forced to deal with.
Passenger rail and freight can coexist and even thrive if both parties are willing. The O-line is half Out-of-Service and the rest sees one train a few days a week. There is absolutely no need for double track on the O-Line, and to be honest, what Charlotte has proposed (a complete rebuild, CTC, PTC, and passing sidings) is more than reasonable. Agreed, the state holds the ultimate trump card by owning the NCRR, and truly will be critical to making the Red Line ever happen.

Sounds like you might be the kind of person that the city should hire as a consultant.


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[Hushpuppy321]

4 hours ago, ajfunder said:

Agreed that is NS's perspective. I work for a Class 1 Railroad and it is very true we do have our interest in mind for obvious reasons. That being said, NS is far more obstructionist than the Class 1 I work for. We have a set, publicly available list of requirements for participating in commuter and intercity projects. If you meet those guidelines, we almost always are willing to come to the table because we see it as a business opportunity. NS from what I can see does not.

We also operate commuter rail on two of our busiest rail lines in Chicago (~90 commuter trips) and Seattle (~26 commuter trips) and we are able to coexist and dispatch trains effectively. These lines are far busier than the NCRR and the O-Line for that matter from a freight perspective. We also have an A rating for Amtrak dispatching. Pretty sure NS has an F. 

It is all about internal attitudes. NS and CSX for that matter are the two most anti-passenger rail companies out there. Just look at the Gulf Passenger rail debacle. What sucks for Charlotte is that these are the two companies we are forced to deal with.

Passenger rail and freight can coexist and even thrive if both parties are willing. The O-line is half Out-of-Service and the rest sees one train a few days a week. There is absolutely no need for double track on the O-Line, and to be honest, what Charlotte has proposed (a complete rebuild, CTC, PTC, and passing sidings) is more than reasonable. Agreed, the state holds the ultimate trump card by owning the NCRR, and truly will be critical to making the Red Line ever happen.

If all this is the case (dealing with NS & CSX) then how is Wake County/Go Triangle on the cusp of establishing Commuter Rail in the next few (5+) years?

[kermit]

On 12/29/2021 at 11:13 PM, Hushpuppy321 said:

If all this is the case (dealing with NS & CSX) then how is Wake County/Go Triangle on the cusp of establishing Commuter Rail in the next few (5+) years?

Trains will run on the state-owned NCRR (which is only leased by NS). The state has the contractual right to run as many passenger trains as they want on the NCRR, provided they do not interfere w NS freight. Fortunately, for the Triangle, NS runs very little freight east of Greensboro.

Edited January 1 by kermit

[JeanClt]

If all this is the case (dealing with NS & CSX) then how is Wake County/Go Triangle on the cusp of establishing Commuter Rail in the next few (5+) years?

I think if the state didn’t own NCRR… NC rail would be a bleaker and different story.

[Bikeguy]

IMHO, and not to breach any UP page protocols, ... the winning strategy ( Dem or Rep ) in next year's Senatorial race is to convey an intention to prioritize this issue with N/S  & CSX,  if elected.  

Edited December 30, 2021 by Bikeguy

[go_vertical]

Before that happens a proper information campaign to accurately communicate to the public what the problems are needs to be started.  While us on these forums are well aware why the red line never happened I'm willing to bet a VAST majority of the region's population think all of the blame rests solely on CATS. 

[ajfunder]

20 hours ago, TheMightyBK said:

Sounds like you might be the kind of person that the city should hire as a consultant.


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Would be a dream come true to work on a hometown rail project, but I feel I need a few more years with my Class 1 before anyone takes me seriously as a consultant haha. Got to earn the stripes.

In the meantime, I get to explore our 28 state system (Western US) so I'm not complaining haha.

[blt23]

I think that the only way NS ever allows commuter trains on the O-line is with a long term extension to their lease/control of the NCRR and only for the life of that lease.

Alternatively, if intercity passenger rail is more important, NCDOT could call NS's O-line bluff at the end of their NCRR lease and take control of the NCRR to prioritize fast, frequent intercity passenger service with local and more limited through freight scheduled and dispatched around it.

I just don't see a way to get frequent passenger trains on both lines without spending a ridiculous amount of money.