Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[JRCLT]

I don’t know if this is old or new… but I haven’t seen the top of that rendering before. Only have seen the ground level section in the CBJ.

https://spectrumcos.com/portfolios/gateway-station/

[san]

2 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I don’t know if this is old or new… but I haven’t seen the top of that rendering before. Only have seen the ground level section in the CBJ.

https://spectrumcos.com/portfolios/gateway-station/

You’re right! I actually haven’t seen the top view of the rendering either. Appears to be much wider as well. Wonder how different the final result will be.

 

[Madison Parkitect]

On 12/29/2021 at 6:41 PM, ajfunder said:

We also operate commuter rail on two of our busiest rail lines in Chicago (~90 commuter trips) and Seattle (~26 commuter trips)

You guys run the Sounder commuter train? That's a pretty nicely-run system, I know a fair amount of people use it for daily commutes and other than the occasional mudslide there's never really any complaints or trip cancellations.

[ajfunder]

On 1/3/2022 at 10:50 AM, Madison Parkitect said:

You guys run the Sounder commuter train? That's a pretty nicely-run system, I know a fair amount of people use it for daily commutes and other than the occasional mudslide there's never really any complaints or trip cancellations.

Correct. We operate Sounder on behalf of Sound Transit with our crews. We are actually pretty good at operating passenger trains when we are paid to do so, but that shouldn't be too surprising considering we are afterall a railroad. Chicago's busiest Metra Line and the Northstar in Minneapolis are also operated by us.

NS and CSX just don't seem to have the same appetite for this unfortunately, they just view passenger trains as a low margin, nuisance. 

I'll find a copy of our commuter standards somewhere... It essentially says all improvements required are paid for by the interested party and the service must be operated at no-loss to the company (aka subsidize any gap in fare-box recovery).

[15895]

On 1/2/2022 at 9:01 PM, san said:

You’re right! I actually haven’t seen the top view of the rendering either. Appears to be much wider as well. Wonder how different the final result will be.

 

I would be perfectly content if that bottom portion was the only thing built assuming it’s the actual station. I say that because who knows if Covid effects the timeline these buildings can be built. 

But at the end of the day - it’s about the Amtrak & Transit Station and it’s a nice looking station even without several office buildings attached. And quite frankly, whenever Amtrak isn’t an 8+ hour affair from Washington DC and when there are more trains not at ridiculous times (2am for example…) - it’d be nice to arrive to that versus the current situation…. And it’d be nice to utilize the Sprinter or something from the airport. 

[TheRealClayton]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I would be perfectly content if that bottom portion was the only thing built assuming it’s the actual station. I say that because who knows if Covid effects the timeline these buildings can be built. 

But at the end of the day - it’s about the Amtrak & Transit Station and it’s a nice looking station even without several office buildings attached. And quite frankly, whenever Amtrak isn’t an 8+ hour affair from Washington DC and when there are more trains not at ridiculous times (2am for example…) - it’d be nice to arrive to that versus the current situation…. And it’d be nice to utilize the Sprinter or something from the airport. 

Left to Right: 

1. Residential 2. Office 3. Residential + Hospitality 4. Office

The Station itself basically takes up the footprint of the area beneath the fancy pergola and the bottom 3 floors of the office tower, as well as the back half of the first two buildings on the left (bus station is here). Theres about 15 retail spaces total. Really should be amazing whenever it happens.

Edited January 5, 2022 by TheRealClayton

[go_vertical]

What's your best guess as to when we'll start seeing some real movement on this?  Not necessarily full build out but vertical construction. 

[JRCLT]

Probably my guess would be soon after phase 1 is complete lol perhaps end of 2022 seems like it…if it opens for service 2025. We’d probably see more specific details at around that point through to construction.

[KJHburg]

^^^ That is 4 towers on the list of 60 proposed.  

[15895]

55 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

^^^ That is 4 towers on the list of 60 proposed.  

Covid hasn't put a dent in that list?

[KJHburg]

16 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Covid hasn't put a dent in that list?

Nope not really most of them are residential and many are planned in the next 2-3 years out. 

[go_vertical]

That's what so great about our most recent stretch of development being so office heavy.  The desirability and usefulness of Uptown increased so much that now a ton of residential is sorely needed.  Imagine if the last five to eight years had been mostly housing and hospitality and the hope was that the office component would come next.  I imagine we would see a near dead stop in construction in the wait to see how things pan out after all this pandemic mess. 

[Third Strike]

In other commuter rail news, an underused freight line in NYC would be upgraded for passenger rail. 
 

https://gothamist.com/news/hochul-promises-inter-borough-express-rail-service-connect-brooklyn-and-queens
 

This line is currently owned by a shortline company and runs twice a day. Hopefully more states and cities continue to expand their regional/commuter rail systems. 

This also makes me firmly believe that the NCRR and the ACWR would be the most feasible lines for commuter rail. The former is owned by the state and the latter is owned by a shortline with low freight traffic. 

[southslider]

^The O line is owned by NS but it may as well be a short line functionally, given its very low traffic.  Still, I agree the NCRR towards Harrisburg, Concord, Kannapolis, and Salisbury makes the most sense as this region's first commuter rail line.  The favorable ownership and existing infrastructure just make so much more sense along NCRR than Red Line, even despite the funding challenges of expanding outside Mecklenburg. Demographically and politically, Cabarrus also seems the most pro-transit of all of Mecklenburg's surrounding counties.  Silver Line can still advance in design, but leveraging NCRR and 77 Express Lanes are the most pragmatic means for CATS to keep expanding respective rail and bus transit in the near future.

[CLT2014]

1 hour ago, southslider said:

^The O line is owned by NS but it may as well be a short line functionally, given its very low traffic.  Still, I agree the NCRR towards Harrisburg, Concord, Kannapolis, and Salisbury makes the most sense as this region's first commuter rail line.  The favorable ownership and existing infrastructure just make so much more sense along NCRR than Red Line, even despite the funding challenges of expanding outside Mecklenburg. Demographically and politically, Cabarrus also seems the most pro-transit of all of Mecklenburg's surrounding counties.  Silver Line can still advance in design, but leveraging NCRR and 77 Express Lanes are the most pragmatic means for CATS to keep expanding respective rail and bus transit in the near future.

I think the main downside to the NCRR route to Salisbury is once you get beyond Harrisburg, those areas do not have a very large percentage of their residential population commuting into Uptown for employment. I've worked at four companies in Uptown and have only met one person that lives in Kannapolis and none in China Grove or Salisbury. Learning somebody lives in Fort Mill or Huntersville, et. is frequent. The NCRR route also is too far from the main area in Concord that drives commuting patterns to Uptown... the more affluent Cox Mill High School zone on the other side of I-85, where Uptown workers flock for the good schools.

 The higher white collar salaries of Uptown employment just doesn't lend itself to many people living in areas like northern Concord or Kannapolis, whereas the desirable public schools and quality of life has super-commuters out of areas like Cornelius,  Davidson, Waxhaw, Weddington, Fort Mill, et.... to get into Uptown. I just fear there isn't much demand for a Kannapolis residents to get to Uptown and boardings would be low.

Edited January 6, 2022 by CLT2014

[jthomas]

1 hour ago, CLT2014 said:

I think the main downside to the NCRR route to Salisbury is once you get beyond Harrisburg, those areas do not have a very large percentage of their residential population commuting into Uptown for employment. I've worked at four companies in Uptown and have only met one person that lives in Kannapolis and none in China Grove or Salisbury. Learning somebody lives in Fort Mill or Huntersville, et. is frequent. The NCRR route also is too far from the main area in Concord that drives commuting patterns to Uptown... the more affluent Cox Mill High School zone on the other side of I-85, where Uptown workers flock for the good schools.

 The higher white collar salaries of Uptown employment just doesn't lend itself to many people living in areas like northern Concord or Kannapolis, whereas the desirable public schools and quality of life has super-commuters out of areas like Cornelius,  Davidson, Waxhaw, Weddington, Fort Mill, et.... to get into Uptown. I just fear there isn't much demand for a Kannapolis residents to get to Uptown and boardings would be low.

Should regional rail happen on the NCRR, the service pattern should not be based on the idea of shuttling office commuters in outlying areas to offices in Uptown Charlotte. Instead, the goals should be 1) to provide frequent, all-day service which allows the line to be a useful mobility option for all who are nearby, and 2) to integrate with intercity rail in order to provide access to intermediate destinations between intercity stations. For example, this could look like trains running 3-4x/hour to Kannapolis, with 1-2/hour continuing all the way to Salisbury. 

Your point is well taken about the current development along the line - however, I think we can be confident that the areas around each station would transform dramatically. There would ideally be a local bus network with a node at each station that would increase the catchment area as well.

Also, if this line were to happen, the terminus should be CLT, not Gateway. That would provide the express Uptown-to-airport service that the Silver line won't, keep turning trains from tying up platform space at Gateway (where space is more constrained), and add another major destination to the line. Even if it required building dedicated tracks between Uptown and the airport (which it probably would), it would be worth it.

[TheRealClayton]

15 hours ago, Third Strike said:

In other commuter rail news, an underused freight line in NYC would be upgraded for passenger rail. 
 

https://gothamist.com/news/hochul-promises-inter-borough-express-rail-service-connect-brooklyn-and-queens
 

This line is currently owned by a shortline company and runs twice a day. Hopefully more states and cities continue to expand their regional/commuter rail systems. 

This also makes me firmly believe that the NCRR and the ACWR would be the most feasible lines for commuter rail. The former is owned by the state and the latter is owned by a shortline with low freight traffic. 

Worth noting this has been in the works for 25 years. I lived a 10 min walk from this and dreamed about it for all the 12 years I lived in Brooklyn.

Edited January 6, 2022 by TheRealClayton

[kermit]

^ Track ownership issues aside, Charlotte would really benefit from regional rail running from Kannapolis to Gastonia (with occasional trains running to Kings Mountain and Salisbury) and a route from Rock Hill to Mooresville. Fantasy-land would be for four trains per hour on both corridors.

Its not gonna happen, but that would arguably do more to improve the health of Uptown, reduce the growth of congestion and reduce housing costs than any other strategy Charlotte could pursue other than the UDO. Since 50% of those corridors are either owned by the state or (essentially) abandoned, and a new central station to accommodate these lines is in progress, the system really isn’t unrealistic.

Edited January 9, 2022 by kermit

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, kermit said:

^ Track ownership issues aside, Charlotte would really benefit from regional rail running from Kannapolis to Gastonia (with occasional trains running to Kings Mountain and Salisbury) and a route from Rock Hill to Mooresville. Fantasy-land would be for four trains per hour on both corridors.

Its not gonna happen, but that would arguably do more to improve the health of Uptown, reduce the growth of congestion and reduce housing costs than any other strategy Charlotte could pursue other than the UDO. It is a shame that 50% of those corridors are either owned by the state or (essentially) abandoned — this system really isn’t unrealistic.

Do the planning departments of surrounding counties/cities/towns outside of Mecklenburg have TOD concepts in their ordinances/zoning codes?

[ajfunder]

Is there any info or draft plans on how the Silver Line will move through the CGS site. I assume this is being taken into account in the master-plan.

 

[kermit]

18 minutes ago, ajfunder said:

Is there any info or draft plans on how the Silver Line will move through the CGS site. I assume this is being taken into account in the master-plan.

 

There were some renderings of the Gateway station platform area which included the Silver Line and rail trail, along with vague indications of where the non-station buildings would be.  They were conceptual rather than engineering documents.  I can't find those at the moment, but they are (or were) upthread here.

[JRCLT]

There were some renderings of the Gateway station platform area which included the Silver Line and rail trail, along with vague indications of where the non-station buildings would be.  They were conceptual rather than engineering documents.  I can't find those at the moment, but they are (or were) upthread here.

Never seen such a rendering?

[MarcoPolo]

Good find JeanCLT.   I was wondering how long it would take for the initial renderings to be discovered / revealed.    The project looks even better than the image shown.  The track side of the station is handled just as well as the street sides are.  This will be transformative to the center city urban fabric.   Much as I discussed many pages back.  Stay tuned!

Also, now that the "train has left the station" so to speak, here are a couple of images I'll throw out for discussion.  Lots going on in each.  There is some "behind the scenes knowledge" sprinkled amongst the urban design principles and techniques illustrated by the two conceptual plans, emphasis on conceptual.  Redeveloped and infill blocks in yellow.  New streets in dark grey.  New parks in dark green.  New civic structures in dark blue.   Fuzzy lines are trolleys, solid lines light rail, dashed solid underground.  Stations are black rectangles.  Amtrak is solid black line.   Enjoy 

The full Monty (brave new worlds discovered)

   

 

A half Monty (acknowledging what's outside your front door).  This could turn into a half-Mont -peekaboo, if the JBF were to be capped/re-purposed.  

 

[kermit]

43 minutes ago, kermit said:

There were some renderings of the Gateway station platform area which included the Silver Line and rail trail, along with vague indications of where the non-station buildings would be.  They were conceptual rather than engineering documents.  I can't find those at the moment, but they are (or were) upthread here.

As usual my memory is unreliable. Here is what I found:

The rendering I was thinking of (it does not include the Silver Line) but does include rail trail. 

This Gateway Station area report has lots different perspectives to the above. Frustratingly there does not appear to be any mention of the Silver Line in the report: https://charlottenc.gov/cats/transit-planning/charlotte-gateway-station/Documents/CGS MSAP - Final Report.pdf

CATS definitely published maps of the Silver Line route for public meetings, and one of those maps sketched the route and Gateway station with decent detail. I am still looking for this map.

 

[TGIBridays]

14 minutes ago, kermit said:

CATS definitely published maps of the Silver Line route for public meetings, and one of those maps sketched the route and Gateway station with decent detail. I am still looking for this map.

They used to have a bunch of renderings on the station area planning site (https://www.catssilverline.com), but that seems to be gone now that public input has ended.  They had this elevation view at the in person station area planning events.  It just showed it smashed between the Amtrak tracks and the station. 

On 7/23/2021 at 8:45 AM, TGIBridays said:

Gateway Station Elevation View

For some reason this elevation was stuck on below the Caldwell/Davidson station drawing...  Just shows the proposed elevations of the line in relation to the Amtrak station/tracks.