Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[ah59396]

They should make some sort of ultra-futuristic 4 block raised pedestrian bridge that runs between the two and has moving sidewalks like an airport. That would be awesome. And something unique to Charlotte.

I also live in a fantasy world where money is no object.

[New Name]

One way to adress the luggage / transfer problem would be a cross-platform transfer between the BLE and the NCRR at a University City / 485 station

There could be a cross-platform transfer at Sugar Creek too. There is certainly enough room at that station, there is also CATS bus bays going crosstown, daily parking, and Route 4 is a ring road for the majority of the city. It would be about the place where HSR/Intracity trains would need to slow down to enter the core.

[thetrick]

I don't think the distance to uptown is an issue. You really need to look at who is traveling, it's not like the demographics of who is on the train now will change over night, or as soon as the station moves. It's mostly residents, and people not going up town, so for them being a little out of the city center is a benefit. If you look at all business in Charlotte most of them are not located at Trade & Tryon, so there is no point in bending over backwards to make that one point, or any one point super accessible. Charlotte is not NYC we are far less dense and the transportation options need to be more diverse. You can't spend an extra $500mil so that 5% of the riders only have to walk 1 block.

From a cost point of view there is simply no better place to put the station.

TH

[southslider]

^{There no longer is a 485 station, and the University City Blvd. station is a good ways off the NCRR. However, the NCRR/Amtrak does touch or parallel the BLE at 36th, Sugar Creek and Old Concord Road stations.}

[dubone]

Well, the Red Line Gold Rush on Trade Street has the highest passenger count in the whole CATS system. Partly because it is fare-free, so hop on/hop off is an easy option. If the city builds the first phase of the streetcar from French to Sunnyside as proposed by the city manager as part of the tax hike, it would be nice to actually see the whole thing fare-free. That is also part fantasy world where money is no object, as I suspect in the end they may need to resort to some revenue bonds or something.

CATS has disavowed the streetcar, and left it to the city of Charlotte to build on its own outside of transit tax budgets (WTF?). Yet, it is relying on the streetcar connection to add capacity to the heavily used Trade St route within uptown to connect its two bus system hubs. Otherwise it will be an absurdity to have some CATS bus routes go to CGS and some go to CTC and have no reasonable way to transfer. They could potentially resolve that by having routes from the east of the city pass CTC and end at CGS and routes from the west of the city pass CGS and end at CTC, but that would be a lot of bus routes. But is still a disjointed strategy.

I absolutely do not like the over street escalator idea, even with money not being an option. It is 1/3 of a mile to Tr&Tr and 1/2 a mile to CTC, which is in a typical station's walking radius. If they can't have the light rail system stop at CGS, the next best thing is the streetcar.

They plan 7 tracks, 2 for the Red Line, 3 for N-S freight, and 2 for Amtrak. This is the short-sightedness I am talking about. Big cities have regional rail/commuter rail in all directions. Charlotte will be a big city someday, ergo our central station needs to have room for expansion. The Amtrak pair of tracks or the Red Line pair may be able to serve a couple extra lines like for the airport or Rock Hill, but what if we do end up with regional rail in all 5 or 6 directions that we have railroad corridors to right now (Albemarle, Statesville, Rock Hill, Monroe, Mt Holly, and Gastonia). Would all those trains coming in at rush hour be able to work in 2 pairs of track? I just don't want us being stuck with short sightedness, because realistically, when we become a city of 5m, we will need all of those radials to our satellite cities.

[ah59396]

Well, the Red Line Gold Rush on Trade Street has the highest passenger count in the whole CATS system. Partly because it is fare-free, so hop on/hop off is an easy option. If the city builds the first phase of the streetcar from French to Sunnyside as proposed by the city manager as part of the tax hike, it would be nice to actually see the whole thing fare-free. That is also part fantasy world where money is no object, as I suspect in the end they may need to resort to some revenue bonds or something.

CATS has disavowed the streetcar, and left it to the city of Charlotte to build on its own outside of transit tax budgets (WTF?). Yet, it is relying on the streetcar connection to add capacity to the heavily used Trade St route within uptown to connect its two bus system hubs. Otherwise it will be an absurdity to have some CATS bus routes go to CGS and some go to CTC and have no reasonable way to transfer. They could potentially resolve that by having routes from the east of the city pass CTC and end at CGS and routes from the west of the city pass CGS and end at CTC, but that would be a lot of bus routes. But is still a disjointed strategy.

I absolutely do not like the over street escalator idea, even with money not being an option. It is 1/3 of a mile to Tr&Tr and 1/2 a mile to CTC, which is in a typical station's walking radius. If they can't have the light rail system stop at CGS, the next best thing is the streetcar.

They plan 7 tracks, 2 for the Red Line, 3 for N-S freight, and 2 for Amtrak. This is the short-sightedness I am talking about. Big cities have regional rail/commuter rail in all directions. Charlotte will be a big city someday, ergo our central station needs to have room for expansion. The Amtrak pair of tracks or the Red Line pair may be able to serve a couple extra lines like for the airport or Rock Hill, but what if we do end up with regional rail in all 5 or 6 directions that we have railroad corridors to right now (Albemarle, Statesville, Rock Hill, Monroe, Mt Holly, and Gastonia). Would all those trains coming in at rush hour be able to work in 2 pairs of track? I just don't want us being stuck with short sightedness, because realistically, when we become a city of 5m, we will need all of those radials to our satellite cities.

Would you like my overhead escalator idea more if we all got wear matching silver one pieces and moon boots?

[carolinagarnet]

This may be a dumb question, but it seems like there is a trend nationwide to route freight trains around major cities to avoid headaches for traffic and to remove obstacles for the trains within the cities. Is it feasable that at some distant future point N-S will reroute its freight trains around the city? I know building new rail is prohibitively expensive and the current route connects the yard at NoDa to the new multimodal yard at the airport, but I wonder if it will ever be worth it for them to build dedicated track north and west of the city, or to push more of its freight onto other lines elsewhere that do not run directly through CLT metro.

They did exactly that through Orlando, although the major difference was that the tracks were not elevated and therefore had to compete with street traffic. The city reused the downtown tracks as commuter rail, which either has or will open within the next couple years. If the Red Line ever gets off the ground, this would help alleviate the traffic on at least part of the line and might free up the stretch from Uptown to the airport for a dedicated airport train. I would assume the new track would run north of I-85 within the I-485 loop in the area that is considerably less developed right now. Again, just a general question since i am unfamiliar with N-S's future plans.

[dubone]

Obtaining new rights of way for rail corridors is expensive then building is even more expensive. Plus, suburban NIMBYs are exhausting.

So, it is more appropriate to just keep going with current routing and ameliorating the routes, such a adding grade separations and reducing horn noise as much as possible.

[thetrick]

This may be a dumb question, but it seems like there is a trend nationwide to route freight trains around major cities to avoid headaches for traffic and to remove obstacles for the trains within the cities. Is it feasable that at some distant future point N-S will reroute its freight trains around the city? I know building new rail is prohibitively expensive and the current route connects the yard at NoDa to the new multimodal yard at the airport, but I wonder if it will ever be worth it for them to build dedicated track north and west of the city, or to push more of its freight onto other lines elsewhere that do not run directly through CLT metro.

The real question is do we want to do it AGAIN. The original southern line was right through the center of down town where the current Lynx line is. At some point long ago they built a connector south of downtown that connects the line to Columbia to the current NS main to Atlanta at was is currently called "Charlotte Junction". This is also where the proposed wye near the airport is to be located.

To be honest the NS main line is very well set up it's above grade for the most part and not in the center of town. Plus, why would the RR move, it's not in their interest, you can't really make them move.

TH

[carolinagarnet]

I guess my question was more about N-S needing to expand their capacity in say 30 or 40 years. Let's assume that a couple factors will converge: more high densitiy development between the stretch from the airport and University and increased regional freight demand as well as more traffic from the Panama Canal. If it does not construct new tracks to build more capacity routed around the city, does N-S have the ability to build new tracks in its existing footprint? Getting back to the Gateway Station, do we foresee Charlotte adding additional tracks for N-S in Uptown? Maybe it is too premature to plan to really confirm the number of tracks they have current planned (7 I believe), but I'm just curious how they anticipate expanding the tracks if they find such a need in the future.

[southslider]

Otherwise it will be an absurdity to have some CATS bus routes go to CGS and some go to CTC and have no reasonable way to transfer. They could potentially resolve that by having routes from the east of the city pass CTC and end at CGS and routes from the west of the city pass CGS and end at CTC, but that would be a lot of bus routes. But is still a disjointed strategy.

Honestly, it is an existing absurdity that CATS patrons wanting to travel between West and East Charlotte need to even transfer today at CTC. And slow-moving streetcar ain't the answer. Ultimately, CATS should interline routes like the 6-Beatties Ford and 9-Central. Once streetcar is built, move the routes to 4th and 5th, freeing up Trade for the slow-moving, urban circulating streetcar. Outside of Uptown, the interlined bus route could operate more like Sprinter with limited-stop service, where overlapping streetcar. But given the JCSU to Sunnyside limits of streetcar, these bus routes will likely still be needed to provide local service along Beatties Ford and Central.

Edited April 5, 2012 by southslider

[tozmervo]

I saw some old Charlotte Transit route maps recently, and interlined routes used to be the rule. I have to assume that the out-and-back routing they use today is done for scheduling. It's a lot easier to keep buses on time when there's a "layover" period at the CTC, which an interlined route may not necessarily have.

[thetrick]

I guess my question was more about N-S needing to expand their capacity in say 30 or 40 years. Let's assume that a couple factors will converge: more high densitiy development between the stretch from the airport and University and increased regional freight demand as well as more traffic from the Panama Canal. If it does not construct new tracks to build more capacity routed around the city, does N-S have the ability to build new tracks in its existing footprint? Getting back to the Gateway Station, do we foresee Charlotte adding additional tracks for N-S in Uptown? Maybe it is too premature to plan to really confirm the number of tracks they have current planned (7 I believe), but I'm just curious how they anticipate expanding the tracks if they find such a need in the future.

Actually they won't need to. One of the exciting developments in RR technology recently is the automation of dispatching and routing. With PTC (positive train control) and CTC (centralized track control) slap some real time routing software on that and you can cram a LOT of trains on a set of double track main line. Trains will operate longer, faster and closer together. Think of it as operating a railroad like a data routing network. Software is on orders of magnitude cheaper than additional track.

Even if NS did needed more track the their right of way is a 150ft wide in most places so they have plenty of room. Each additional main line track only requires about 12ft of space.

TH

[dubone]

http://www.charlotteobserver.com/2012/05/08/3225140/44m-railroad-yard-planned-near.html

It is interesting that the O is harping about this but not the major expansion of the Pipe and Foundary next door.

It is a shame so much land close to town needs to go toward this, but it seems this is just an extension of the Gateway Station plans.

[tozmervo]

At least it's a pretty "back of house" area along the highways. I work very close to that location, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've been through there.

[nonillogical]

At least it's a pretty "back of house" area along the highways. I work very close to that location, and I can count on one hand the number of times I've been through there.

I go through here as the 'back way' to work pretty much every day (mostly since biking on Morehead is so dangerous) and I really don't think this land was destined for much else. I do however think we'll eventually see some thoughtful development more towards the top of the hill on Summit. I'm not sure of the exact boundaries of the rail yard, but I think an eventual buffer park or something might be nice between there and the neighborhood.

I guess it might be prohibitively expensive, but with 5 tracks crossing Summit now, I really wish they could grade separate them. It can be a really long wait there with already very frequent trains.

Edited May 8, 2012 by nonillogical

[kermit]

I don't know if there is any substance behind this comment from railroad.net but its an interesting idea:

Amtrak may have to think outside the box for the Democratic National Convention in Charlotte this year September 3-6. Some big passenger rail supporters will be there from Washington and so will a significant contingent of the press from New York. Some special event trains may be a good idea, like Amtrak ran for the inauguration.

Would a (very) temporary platform at the Gateway site be possible? Having 'big passenger rail supporters' spend time at the current station might be a mixed blessing.

[ajfunder]

What about the unused Charlotte Observer spur at BofA stadium, that parking lot would make a nice flat unloading area since it is level and it is on the stadium property, where some of the DNC events are being held. Honestley, anything would be better than the current Amtrak station, and the spur is within the I-277 loop, not outside of Uptown. Who knows, maybe using the Amtrak station will help convey the message that we need a new train station. Back to the spur, I know a short 200ft segment of track has been removed between the Panthers parking lot and the S. Mint street crossing but I doubt trains would have to go beyond the parking lot. Other than that, the spur looks completely intact. This would be a better option than building a temporary platform along the NS mainline, and I doubt NS wants passenger trains blocking there trackage.

Edited June 1, 2012 by ajfunder

[cha]

So did they ever find a developer for this? I know that window for interested parties has closed, but never heard any word on who they chose or anything.

[orulz]

You guys have plenty of time to get this figured out... 2018 is the absolute earliest that passenger trains could possibly start going to Gateway, I'm pretty sure that's when the CSX-NS grade separation will be complete.

[kermit]

So did they ever find a developer for this? I know that window for interested parties has closed, but never heard any word on who they chose or anything.

CBJ reports today (in the table talk section which I can never find online) that a developer should be named before the election. The three paragraph piece is titled "Big Gateway Project Still on Track." NCDOT has completed its "request for expression of ideas" (???) and they are about to begin their "request for qualifications" call. The NCDOT rep said that developers were "bullish" on the station project.

It was good to hear the proect is moving forward but the very short piece had very little substance to report.

Edited July 20, 2012 by kermit

[New Name]

Not really "newsworthy" but I don't remember seeing this rendering before:

http://noda-plazamidwood.wbtv.com/news/transportation/74594-city-state-take-next-step-future-uptown-transportation-hub

The N.C. Department of Transportation issued a request for qualifications Thursday from developers with experience in urban mixed-use projects to partner on the future Gateway Station district development in uptown.

The state wants to have all candidates for the project's master developer submit their qualifications by Sept. 21.

Edited August 16, 2012 by The Escapists

[ajfunder]

The rendering has been around for quite some time, but just seeing it again makes me want to see this project move forward all the more. Especially after driving by the current Amtrak Station today.

[ah59396]

^Amtrak should be embarrassed by their 60's era car dealership of a train station. The Gateway station can't move forward fast enough. Any news is good news in my book!

[DMann]

While I also anticipate this station's arrival, I hope it is not that suburban design model in the rendering! I would hope it would look less like the Charlotte Observer building and more like Epicentre.