Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[15895]

51 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

I agree we could probably support that much service. NC is a unique state - very high population, but not centered around one gigantic city like so many other large states are (Georgia, Michigan, Pennsylvania, etc.). We have several small and mid size cities and I'd count Charlotte as large these days. None of them are very far apart save for perhaps Wilmington and maybe Asheville. We are uniquely positioned to support intercity rail between these many cities, even moreso than something like commuter rail given we don't have any metro areas with more than 3 million people.

But the NC cities have rather poor mass transit serving their metropolitan areas, have low density and are sprawled out. That makes it limited to the types of trips that could be taken. That are competitive with vehicle. 

Most people in the Charlotte region and Charlotte itself  would have to drive to Gateway station or take multiple transfers on mass transit, pay a round trip ticket and then when you get to Raleigh. Hopefully you have a hotel downtown or on a popular bus route and everywhere you need to go is convenient to walking or mass transit. 

I think inter-city rail works best when they connect to places that if not are high density at least have good mobility. Charlotte has the best mobility of the Carolina cities but it’s still limited to the city of Charlotte and specifically on the light rail corridor and a few key bus routes.

NC needs to invest more in mass transit of their two largest cities. Both are willing to play ball. The two new Amtrak stations though are a giant step in the right direction. If Triangle gets more rail which seems likely connected to RUS, Accela service which seems sort of likely & connected to the NEC, rail to Wilmington which I dunno how likely that would be. That too would be a monumental step which makes intercity NC travel more successful. 

Edited June 9, 2022 by AirNostrumMAD

[jthomas]

2 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

But the NC cities have rather poor mass transit serving their metropolitan areas, have low density and are sprawled out. That makes it limited to the types of trips that could be taken. That are competitive with vehicle. 

Most people in the Charlotte region and Charlotte itself  would have to drive to Gateway station or take multiple transfers on mass transit, pay a round trip ticket and then when you get to Raleigh. Hopefully you have a hotel downtown or on a popular bus route and everywhere you need to go is convenient to walking or mass transit. 

I think inter-city rail works best when they connect to places that if not are high density at least have good mobility. Charlotte has the best mobility of the Carolina cities but it’s still limited to the city of Charlotte and specifically on the light rail corridor and a few key bus routes.

NC needs to invest more in mass transit of their two largest cities. 

While you're not wrong on any of your points, we can't wait for "perfect" conditions for investing in alternate transportation. The auto-centric sprawl machine is already operating in full force. Waiting 20 years for mass transit to improve would just result in 20 more years' worth of the low density sprawl that you say is a barrier to rail travel today. The flip side is that NC's robust growth means that its cities could reshape themselves around rail travel in a relatively short period of time (just look at South End for an example). If there was fast, frequent, reliable intercity service, I believe you would see a big shift away from suburban office parks towards major office and residential growth around each station. 

As pointed out above, NC's urban geography is ideal for a very robust rail system. The state owns a line that connects the CBDs of its 4 largest cities, as well as large universities (NCSU, UNCC, UNCG, NC A&T), major hospitals (Duke), event destinations (GSO Coliseum, State Fairgrounds, HP furniture market, etc.), and only requires a 5-mile extension to reach the most important international airport in the state. If those aren't ingredients for success, then I don't know what is. The seeds are there - all that is needed is the fertilizer of greatly increased service.

I'll go a step further and say that if a Northeast Corridor-like level of intercity and local rail service was instituted on the NCRR today, it would reshape NC's cities as fundamentally as did the interstate system, and that they would be transformed (in a good way!) within 30 years.

Edited June 9, 2022 by jthomas
didn't list the universities in my own town *facepalm*

[kermit]

^ A fantastic post! I'll add a couple of tentative supporting points to it:

• Honestly the stations on the Piedmont route are not _THAT_ bad in terms of walkability. Pretty much every stop has a pleasant and walkable downtown (with the possible exception of Cary which does offer very convenient strip club access from the station).
• Adding a few stations (for commuter rail) would add direct access to: NCSU, Research Triangle Park, Duke University and Hospital (wheather they want it or not), UNC-G and Elon (and possibly UNCC)
• Raleigh BRT will provide a non-trivial amount of additional employment access (shame about DOLRT)
• Charlotte Gateway will bring the Piedmont into the middle of the largest single job cluster in the Southeast
• A Winston loop would also add a remarkably walkable downtown  (and an increasingly important research park and medical school) to the network (but this is certainly far-fetched)

While NC cities do have gawdawful job sprawl, it would only take small changes for much of this employment to become more TOD accessible (like the American Tobacco Campus in Durham).  The addition of micromobility in these places (Lime has been very on and off in Greensboro), much better bike infrastructure (bikes are free on the Piedmont!) and some thoughtful systems built around rideshare could eliminate much of the accessibility handicaps that NC cities have.

I speak from experience, I have ridden the Piedmont to the following places as a walking or biking tourist: Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro, High Point (the least delightful but still fine), Salisbury and Kannapolis. Maybe one day I'll get to Burlington...

Edited June 10, 2022 by kermit

[JRCLT]

Definitely from my point of view (I’ve only gone to Raleigh to visit friends at NCSU) it’s not hard to get where you’re going if you have a purpose there. Sure going on to cities all by your lonesome may cause inconveniences in getting to places but a lot of people may go because they have friends or family there. It’s not hard to catch an uber or even have them pick you up from the station if it’s significantly farther from the station. Mass transit isn’t a one size fits all that has to be done in particular certain stages building from down to the last mile up to intercity travel. I don’t think most people on their trains are just stranded. The appeal of not having to drive is on its own a draw to me. If the time was reduced comparable to driving and with gas prices going up I wouldn’t give it a second thought than to ride the train.

With CGS even better of an appeal. High platform and a more convenient and walkable location in the heart of Charlotte is unparalleled to the current location and that is obvious I know. I’d rather get improvements now which are already sitting on NCs lap than wait to improve transit that honestly is going to take decades. The NCRR is just waiting for higher speeds and frequency it is right there. Not expansive complicated land acquisition required for improvements and that is the single greatest challenge faced by transit. Land which balloons the cost and causes delays. Definitely no reason why NC shouldn’t have an excellent intercity rail. (HECK! Look at Airports) people aren’t always flying to cities that are all greatly served by transit. Transit would definitely cause synergy but I wouldn’t say it’s the end all be all for providing competitive service. People love trains and given a good reason they will ride it.

[Reverie39]

22 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

But the NC cities have rather poor mass transit serving their metropolitan areas, have low density and are sprawled out. That makes it limited to the types of trips that could be taken. That are competitive with vehicle. 

Most people in the Charlotte region and Charlotte itself  would have to drive to Gateway station or take multiple transfers on mass transit, pay a round trip ticket and then when you get to Raleigh. Hopefully you have a hotel downtown or on a popular bus route and everywhere you need to go is convenient to walking or mass transit. 

I think inter-city rail works best when they connect to places that if not are high density at least have good mobility. Charlotte has the best mobility of the Carolina cities but it’s still limited to the city of Charlotte and specifically on the light rail corridor and a few key bus routes.

NC needs to invest more in mass transit of their two largest cities. Both are willing to play ball. The two new Amtrak stations though are a giant step in the right direction. If Triangle gets more rail which seems likely connected to RUS, Accela service which seems sort of likely & connected to the NEC, rail to Wilmington which I dunno how likely that would be. That too would be a monumental step which makes intercity NC travel more successful. 

Good points and I also agree with the many responses you have gotten too. One thing that stuck out - is it true that we are expecting Acela service to extend into NC? Presumably after some track upgrades. If so that is fantastic, I would be ecstatic.

[Hushpuppy321]

22 hours ago, kermit said:

^ A fantastic post! I'll add a couple of tentative supporting points to it:

• Honestly the stations on the Piedmont route are not _THAT_ bad in terms of walkability. Pretty much every stop has a pleasant and walkable downtown (with the possible exception of Cary which does offer very convenient strip club access from the station).
• Adding a few stations (for commuter rail) would add direct access to: NCSU, Research Triangle Park, Duke University and Hospital (wheather they want it or not), UNC-G and Elon (and possibly UNCC)
• Raleigh BRT will provide a non-trivial amount of additional employment access (shame about DOLRT)
• Charlotte Gateway will bring the Piedmont into the middle of the largest single job cluster in the Southeast
• A Winston loop would also add a remarkably walkable downtown  (and an increasingly important research park and medical school) to the network (but this is certainly far-fetched)

While NC cities do have gawdawful job sprawl, it would only take small changes for much of this employment to become more TOD accessible (like the American Tobacco Campus in Durham).  The addition of micromobility in these places (Lime has been very on and off in Greensboro), much better bike infrastructure (bikes are free on the Piedmont!) and some thoughtful systems built around rideshare could eliminate much of the accessibility handicaps that NC cities have.

I speak from experience, I have ridden the Piedmont to the following places as a walking or biking tourist: Raleigh, Durham, Greensboro, High Point (the least delightful but still fine), Salisbury and Kannapolis. Maybe one day I'll get to Burlington...

Quote in Bold - Are you saying that Uptown CLT has the most Cluster of Jobs in the entire Southeast?  Bigger than Downtown Atlanta or Miami?  If that’s true, no wonder traffic is so bad during Morning & Evening commutes there.

Edited June 10, 2022 by Hushpuppy321

[15895]

4 minutes ago, Reverie39 said:

Good points and I also agree with the many responses you have gotten too. One thing that stuck out - is it true that we are expecting Acela service to extend into NC? Presumably after some track upgrades. If so that is fantastic, I would be ecstatic.

I have some caveats with some of the responses that the travel by train would still be rather niche for how car dependent the NC metropolitan areas and cities are. I wasn't going to respond because I figured it might derail an important topic. But since I want to reply to this comment, I'm not saying don't build or upgrade. I'm just saying I think the impacts on an hourly intercity train service(which would rival the Pacific Surfliner in terms of frequency with maybe a fraction of the population and hitting beaches) wouldn't be some large catalyst or have a large impact on the metropolitan areas of their car dependencies. That is going to come with zoning, a fundamental shift to higher density.

I think Acela service to Raleigh is likely. Virginia is still making huge investments into rail. Billions (even before the infrastructure bill). https://spectrumlocalnews.com/nc/charlotte/news/2022/06/01/raleigh-to-richmond-rail-line-get-a--58-million-boost-from-the-feds

Back in 2019, VA struck a $3.7 Billion dollar deal with CSX https://ggwash.org/view/75263/virginias-big-buy-in-on-rail-could-transform-regional-mobility and since then, a lot more has been announced for rail transit in VA including the infrastructure bill adding to it. 

The reason that is germane to North Carolina is this opens up Raleigh to a ton more frequencies to points north and much faster. And I've heard many VA officials discuss Acela service going down into Raleigh. So I think it's very likely Raleigh gets some Acela service if not very high frequency high speed routes to DC and increased to points further. Charlotte on the other hand, I'm not optimistic it has as bright of a heavy rail future as Raleigh for a very long time. RUS might have quite a few trains between potential commuter rails (which I would assume would be more frequent than the red line given the nature of the Triangle). I also think higher frequency, faster times from Raleigh to points north would be very competitive with vehicle travel. 

IMO, it's worth following Virginia rail news if you're pro-NC rail transit because it directly effects NC. 

But I'm not the train expert. Several other posters know wayyy more about trains. So take my opinion on rail for what it is. The airline industry is my wheelhouse. 

[kermit]

18 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

Quote in Bold - Are you saying that Uptown CLT has the most Cluster of Jobs in the entire Southeast?  Bigger than Downtown Atlanta or Miami?  If that’s true, no wonder traffic is so bad during Morning & Evening commutes there.

I pulled that stat out of my ass, but I am guessing Uptown Charlotte has (pre pandemic) more jobs that either downtown or midtown Atlanta (taken separately). Given that I didn’t check the numbers (maybe I’ll do that tonight) I should have said ‘one of’. I don’t know enough about downtown Miami to hazard a guess (but everyone knows South Florida is not part of the Southeast).

[kermit]

35 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

I have some caveats with some of the responses that the travel by train would still be rather niche for how car dependent the NC metropolitan areas and cities are. I wasn't going to respond because I figured it might derail an important topic. But since I want to reply to this comment, I'm not saying don't build or upgrade. I'm just saying I think the impacts on an hourly intercity train service(which would rival the Pacific Surfliner in terms of frequency with maybe a fraction of the population and hitting beaches) wouldn't be some large catalyst or have a large impact on the metropolitan areas of their car dependencies. That is going to come with zoning, a fundamental shift to higher density.

I think Acela service to Raleigh is likely.

While it would be huge to extend the NEC down to NC, Acela service to NC will require that Virginia electrifies its new lines, something that is possible, but not currently planned. Running CAT wore through Virginia would probably involve building new, dedicated passenger tracks on the ROW they purchased from CSX since CSX is reluctant to run double stack intermodal under wire. Its also not planned to run wire from Petersburg to Raleigh, these two upgrades would be several billion and generally only make sense for 20+ trains per day, something that is not on the horizon from Raleigh. That said, there is talk of hybrid battery/wire trains which would charge off short sections of wire and at end points which would reduce the cost of stringing wire. [although one of the big advantages of electric trains is they don’t need to carry the extra weight of fuel, batteries negate that advantage]

In terms of ridership and density, NC’s late bloomer status has some advantages. If we end up in a hybrid work world, living close to NC intercity rail provides a huge array of feasible office locations for occasional in person work and collaboration. Its totally reasonable to expect some folks to be based in Greensboro and visit an RTP office via rail once a week as part of a job (or be a researcher in the Charlotte medical school and make periodic trips to Durham for collaboration). This sort of connectivity would be a huge advantage in a hybrid-work world.

Edited June 10, 2022 by kermit

[Hushpuppy321]

21 minutes ago, kermit said:

I pulled that stat out of my ass, but I am guessing Uptown Charlotte has (pre pandemic) more jobs that either downtown or midtown Atlanta (taken separately). Given that I didn’t check the numbers (maybe I’ll do that tonight) I should have said ‘one of’. I don’t know enough about downtown Miami to hazard a guess (but everyone knows South Florida is not part of the Southeast).

No Dude you are correct - If you compare Uptown Charlotte to Downtown Atlanta, Uptown wins with 33 Million Sq. ft to Atlanta’s 26 Million.  If you compare total CBD areas then Atlanta is bigger with 48 Million Sq.Ft total (Downtown + Midtown ATL).   I did some research since I made that previous comment on your comment.  I’m sure the Pandemic has changed things a bit (Everywhere) but Uptown Charlotte is truly the Largest Concentration of Office in the Southeast (Judging only Downtown vs Downtown).  If you compare Total CBD’s then Atlanta is first but over a much larger area than Charlottes CBD (Uptown, Midtown, SouthEnd).

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

29 minutes ago, Hushpuppy321 said:

No Dude you are correct - If you compare Uptown Charlotte to Downtown Atlanta, Uptown wins with 33 Million Sq. ft to Atlanta’s 26 Million.  If you compare total CBD areas then Atlanta is bigger with 48 Million Sq.Ft total (Downtown + Midtown ATL).   I did some research since I made that previous comment on your comment.  I’m sure the Pandemic has changed things a bit (Everywhere) but Uptown Charlotte is truly the Largest Concentration of Office in the Southeast (Judging only Downtown vs Downtown).  If you compare Total CBD’s then Atlanta is first but over a much larger area than Charlottes CBD (Uptown, Midtown, SouthEnd).

Don't forget Atlanta has Buckhead (22msft) and Perimeter (29m) markets as well.  So Atlanta has more than 99m sqft within am 20 mile radius of downtown Atlanta in Fulton county (also doesn't include Cobb County or DeKalb).

[15895]

Perimeter has the most office space in Atlanta?

[kermit]

45 minutes ago, CarolinaDaydreamin said:

Don't forget Atlanta has Buckhead (22msft) and Perimeter (29m) markets as well.  So Atlanta has more than 99m sqft within am 20 mile radius of downtown Atlanta in Fulton county (also doesn't include Cobb County or DeKalb).

True but keep in mind that Bukhead is a bit further from downtown Atlanta than Southpark is from Uptown and Perimeter Center is roughly Ballantyne distance away. 

(I am not disputing your numbers, metro Atlanta is bigger. Just suggesting a more Apples to Apples comparison. Looks like SP and Ballantyne together account for about 12 million sqft).

Edited June 10, 2022 by kermit

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

5 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Perimeter has the most office space in Atlanta?

As a submarket, but Downtown and midtown is contiguous, and Midtown and Buckhead are more contiguous than you would believe (Highrises up Peachtree from Ansley Park up to Lenox Mall)

[Third Strike]

https://fampo.org/galleries/origin/389fay-2-ral-passenger-rail-final-report-8-21-2020.pdf
 

There’s a new proposal to create a commuter line between Raleigh and Fayetteville. One of the rail corridors under consideration is owned by Norfolk Southern (the other is part of the NCRR and CSX). Would be awesome if any negotiations with potentially using NS’ rail line, also involved our Red Line. I believe this is the only line that NS has that connects to Fayetteville, so I’m not sure how NS would feel with passenger rail sharing their tracks. 

[kermit]

4 hours ago, Third Strike said:

https://fampo.org/galleries/origin/389fay-2-ral-passenger-rail-final-report-8-21-2020.pdf
 

There’s a new proposal to create a commuter line between Raleigh and Fayetteville. One of the rail corridors under consideration is owned by Norfolk Southern (the other is part of the NCRR and CSX). Would be awesome if any negotiations with potentially using NS’ rail line, also involved our Red Line. I believe this is the only line that NS has that connects to Fayetteville, so I’m not sure how NS would feel with passenger rail sharing their tracks. 

Fayetteville commuter service from Raleigh is a good idea, and with this announcement it appears that commuter rail from EVERY rail line to Raleigh is being considered. Unfortunately Raleigh-Fayetteville is an apples to oranges comparison to Charlotte-Mt Mourne.

The NS main connecting the Northeast to the deep South is the line from Charlotte-Greensboro (the NCRR) and then on to Danville. Nearly all of the other NS tracks in NC merely collect local freight and are not significant moneymakers for the railroad. NS has been actively shortlining its secondary tracks in the state (the route from Salisbury to Asheville is in the process of being sold) and bulking up facilities along its main (e.g. Charlotte intermodal yard).

You can see from the map below the NS Fayetteville tracks (in green) are just a spur, possibly maintained with military subsidies to insure that two Class 1 rr’s can reach Ft Bragg. Other than a couple on concrete plants I did not see much local freight on the route and there is a weird (for NC) stretch of street running on Hilsboro st in Fayetteville. This line is just a minor appendage to an unimportant portion (eastern NC) of the NS network.

The O-Line on the other hand generates very little local freight but can theoretically serve as a replacement for the NS main (on the leased NCRR).  It would be a crappy replacement (it will always be slow), but NS can credibly point to it and say to the NCRR “we don’t really need to renew our lease, but if you give us a good price then we will think about it.” That leverage is greatly reduced if it is being used as a commuter route since freight capacity on the line is reduced. Pretty much everyone recognizes this is just BS posturing but here we are…

 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2022 by kermit

[Third Strike]

10 minutes ago, kermit said:

Fayetteville commuter service from Raleigh is a good idea. Unfortunately its an apples to oranges comparison to the Red Line.

The NS main connecting the Northeast to the deep South is the line from Charlotte-Greensboro (the NCRR) and then on to Danville. Nearly all of the other NS tracks in NC merely collect local freight and are not significant moneymakers for the railroad. NS has been actively shortlining its secondary tracks in the state (the route from Salisbury to Asheville is in the process of being sold) and bulking up facilities along its main (e.g. Charlotte intermodal yard).

You can see from the map below the NS Fayetteville tracks (in green) are just a spur, possibly maintained with military subsidies to insure that two Class 1 rr’s can reach Ft Bragg. Other than a couple on concrete plants I did not see much local freight on the route and there is a weird (for NC) stretch of street running on Hilsboro st in Fayetteville. This line is just a minor appendage to an unimportant portion (eastern NC) of the NS network.

The O-Line on the other hand generates very little local freight but can theoretically serve as a replacement for the NS main (on the leased NCRR).  It would be a crappy replacement (it will always be slow), but NS can credibly point to it and say to the NCRR “we don’t really need to renew our lease, but if you give us a good price then we will think about it.” That leverage is greatly reduced if it is being used as a commuter route since freight capacity on the line is reduced. Pretty much everyone recognizes this is just BS posturing but here we are…

 

 

 

I wasn’t aware that NS was selling the Salisbury/Asheville line. Any chance the state would be interested in buying it? Especially since there’s been a renewed interest in connecting Asheville with rail?

[kermit]

6 hours ago, Third Strike said:

I wasn’t aware that NS was selling the Salisbury/Asheville line. Any chance the state would be interested in buying it? Especially since there’s been a renewed interest in connecting Asheville with rail?

I have not heard any talk about the state purchasing the line, they generally only make purchases of abandoned lines and in this case there is enough local freight to generate short line interest (so no abandonment is likely). Its a shame the state operates that way because a) the line would be a nice bookend to the NCRR and b) restoring Asheville passenger service will require lots of speed upgrades to the existing tracks for it to be viable.   IIRC NS has already designaled everything West of Salisbury so it all has a 25mph speed limit, and a short line owner will certainly not do anything to increase speeds on their own.

Edited June 11, 2022 by kermit

[Reverie39]

I would really love to see Amtrak service extend the Piedmont SE from Raleigh to Wilmington and W from Charlotte to Asheville, perhaps with lower frequencies on those extensions (though I suppose you couldn't really call it the "Piedmont" anymore). Pretty much every mid and large size city in the state will be connected at least somewhat by regular rail then - and we could carry a huge amount of vacationers from the central cities to the beach or mountains. Of course options once Asehville or Wilmington are reached are limited, but rental cars and buses may be enough to convince many to take the train. There's so much potential to revolutionize our transit that way.

[Third Strike]

In rail news from around the greater region, a non-profit group wants to buy the rail line that runs between Inman, SC and Zirconia, NC from Norfolk Southern. This segment is part of a larger rail line that runs from Spartanburg and Asheville. This segment also includes the Saluda Grade, which is one of the steepest and most dangerous pieces of railroad on the continent. The group wants to convert it to a trail, but also wanted to preserve the ROW for potential, future rail service. 
 

https://railfan.com/non-profits-team-up-to-turn-legendary-saluda-grade-into-rail-trail/

Edited July 22, 2022 by Third Strike

[KJHburg]

Story about Raleigh's Union Station but mentions Charlotte and our new gateway station.  There is funding for our station as this article seems to say otherwise.

https://www.costar.com/article/1229547465/this-raleigh-north-carolina-amtrak-station-could-provide-model-for-other-cities

RUS Bus tower is getting underway and it is a 37 story apartment tower over the main bus depot and terminus for their BRT.    For more info on that tower go to this thread 

 

[southslider]

What if NCRR replaced Silver Line to Airport on new tracks for commuter rail separate from Norfolk Southern?  If Silver Line no longer runs through Uptown east-west, maybe the western half should be split up between commuter rail to Airport (and Gaston), plus Gold Line spur to West Charlotte.  NCRR could follow the LPA from Gateway Station to Belmont, while Gold Line could return to Wesley Heights, as well as other west corridors with stronger TOD potential.

[Hushpuppy321]

15 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Story about Raleigh's Union Station but mentions Charlotte and our new gateway station.  There is funding for our station as this article seems to say otherwise.

https://www.costar.com/article/1229547465/this-raleigh-north-carolina-amtrak-station-could-provide-model-for-other-cities

RUS Bus tower is getting underway and it is a 37 story apartment tower over the main bus depot and terminus for their BRT.    For more info on that tower go to this thread 

 

This is amazing for Raleigh - hoping that Charlotte Gateway Station could attract development as dense & tall as this one Raleigh has….

[JRCLT]

http://www.capstonedevco.com/gateway-station







I wonder how this will turn out and how close it will look to these. Phase 1 should be wrapping up next year.

[ertley]

12 hours ago, JeanClt said:

Is this just a bike path or a representation of a rail trail adjacent or nearby a Silver Line????

(I am totally opposed to Julie Eiselt's demand/pique that the Silver Line is aligned with the Blue Line through downtown, and am hoping CATS is just humoring her until they can prove it's not smart as well as not feasible. IMHO)