Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[go_vertical]

I don't think you're wrong here.  This seems like it started off with a strong and focused vision but has since devolved into a fumbled-up mess.  Our city leaders have grown more and more inept at spearheading projects that can propel Charlotte forward. 

[j-man]

Again I ask...does anyone have any idea on when the office/station will actually begin construction. Hasn't the last phase been considered complete. 

[kermit]

1 hour ago, j-man said:

Again I ask...does anyone have any idea on when the office/station will actually begin construction. Hasn't the last phase been considered complete. 

It does not appear that anyone here has any firm knowledge of when the PPP project (which includes the station) will begin. It also appears that it is a mystery to the developer as well (see below).  As I said a few posts up NCDOT is currently saying “2026” for expected completion date.

The city decided building out the district as a single PPP was the right choice back 10(?) years ago. In hindsight, it appears that using public money for the station project (like Raleigh did) and then allowing the district to develop organically around the station (like Raleigh did) may have been a quicker/better path. 

Edit: I decided to check the most recent CATS Quarterly report to the FTA for info. Here is what they said about the station (page 86). Perhaps we will have some useful news on start dates in April?

 

Edited January 7, 2023 by kermit

[JRCLT]

It does not appear that anyone here has any firm knowledge of when the PPP project (which includes the station) will begin. It also appears that it is a mystery to the developer as well (see below).  As I said a few posts up NCDOT is currently saying “2026” for expected completion date.
The city decided building out the district as a single PPP was the right choice back 10(?) years ago. In hindsight, it appears that using public money for the station project (like Raleigh did) and then allowing the district to develop organically around the station (like Raleigh did) may have been a quicker/better path. 
Edit: I decided to check the most recent CATS Quarterly report to the FTA for info. Here is what they said about the station (page 86). Perhaps we will have some useful news on start dates in April?

 

That rendering is of similar angle but different, nice to see it. It looks nice.

On another note I asked someone that works for the city in relevant department about CGS sometime last year around this time. Their reaction was quite hilarious. To attempt an describe it… it went a little like this.



So hopefully that timetable will stand

[PuppiesandKittens]

Since there is a rail line from uptown to south Charlotte, why not build a station in south Charlotte, and build platforms uptown where the uptown station is proposed to be?

Wouldn’t that help ridership more than just an uptown station would, given the large population base in south Charlotte?

[JRCLT]

Since there is a rail line from uptown to south Charlotte, why not build a station in south Charlotte, and build platforms uptown where the uptown station is proposed to be?
Wouldn’t that help ridership more than just an uptown station would, given the large population base in south Charlotte?

That sounds like commuter rail ; )

[PuppiesandKittens]

Just now, JeanClt said:

That sounds like commuter rail ; )

It might but that’s not the intent.  I figure that if someone from south Charlotte wants to go to Greensboro or Raleigh-Durham, having a station in south Charlotte would help make trains more attractive.  If you can start off on I-485 and then go to I-85, that makes driving much more attractive than driving uptown to start a train trip there.

[kermit]

9 hours ago, PuppiesandKittens said:

Since there is a rail line from uptown to south Charlotte, why not build a station in south Charlotte, and build platforms uptown where the uptown station is proposed to be?

Wouldn’t that help ridership more than just an uptown station would, given the large population base in south Charlotte?

I think its a fine idea. Unfortunately Norfolk Southern is likely to have a different opinion about it. The tradeoff is it would mean Piedmont trains not being able to stop at the airport (would be about 1/4 east of Billy Graham).

FWIW the preferred route identified for Atlanta-Charlotte HSR has a South Gastonia (state line) stop, that would serve some of the S Charlotte market (perhaps by 2075…).

Edited January 9, 2023 by kermit

[JRCLT]

I think its a fine idea. Unfortunately Norfolk Southern is likely to have a different opinion about it. The tradeoff is it would mean not stopping at the airport.
FWIW the preferred route identified for Atlanta-Charlotte HSR has a South Gastonia (state line) stop, that would serve some of the S Charlotte market (in 2075…).

Isn’t it owned by csx?

[kermit]

3 minutes ago, JeanClt said:

Isn’t it owned by csx?

The line that runs beside the Blue line in South Charlotte is the NS Columbia subdivision. The only CSX tracks in Mecklenburg are the Matthews-Paw Creek line.

https://www.openrailwaymap.org/

[JRCLT]

The line that runs beside the Blue line in South Charlotte is the NS Columbia subdivision. The only CSX tracks in Mecklenburg are the Matthews-Paw Creek line.
https://www.openrailwaymap.org/
http://content.invisioncic.com/x329420/monthly_2023_01/image.png.df8a401bf5966bfd822da47db1795478.png

Ah I was thinking of the csx tracks and not this one…

[southslider]

2026 isn't even certain, given both Greyhound's demands and the market's frailty.

[kdub1]

On 12/27/2022 at 12:24 PM, Reverie39 said:

Gateway station can’t come soon enough. 

Agree. Reminds me of the Raleigh station pre-2018 when it still used the Southern depot on West Cabarrus. 

[kdub1]

On 1/1/2023 at 7:33 PM, kermit said:

Years

The most recent information from NCDOT is service is expected to begin at Gateway in "2026". I would not be surprised at all if it gets delayed beyond that date (office development is a large part of the PPP but covid, work from home, etc. are making it tough to pull the trigger on the project). The temporary station was eliminated a while ago, I think the developer felt like it would be an impediment to construction. There is no pedestrian access or canopy on the platform so even if we wanted to start service from there it would be impossible without another big wad of work.

 

 

And this is how things fall prey to the John Locke Foundation types! People will be looking at the new platform and wonder why there's nothing else there.  Eliminating the temporary station was a huge mistake.

[XRZ.ME]

https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/Rail-Division-Resources/Documents/Winter 2022 eRailReport.pdf

Should be enough space for additional track in uptown direction.

[RANYC]

On 1/23/2023 at 6:21 PM, XRZ.ME said:

https://connect.ncdot.gov/resources/Rail-Division-Resources/Documents/Winter 2022 eRailReport.pdf

Should be enough space for additional track in uptown direction.

In 2015, Charlotte business leaders traveled to Denver to see that city's refurbished Union Station.  In 2016, Uptown denizens attended a visioning session to conclude that Gateway Station should be iconic.  At the time, planners asserted that the new station would open in 2021.  Here we are in 2023, and I'm not really hearing anything about any sort of plans going vertical.  The tracks and platform look nice, but it's hard to celebrate when usage feels and looks so far away.  Anyway know what's going on with this thing?

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

12 minutes ago, RANYC said:

In 2015, Charlotte business leaders traveled to Denver to see that city's refurbished Union Station.  In 2016, Uptown denizens attended a visioning session to conclude that Gateway Station should be iconic.  At the time, planners asserted that the new station would open in 2021.  Here we are in 2023, and I'm not really hearing anything about any sort of plans going vertical.  The tracks and platform look nice, but it's hard to celebrate when usage feels and looks so far away.  Anyway know what's going on with this thing?

Far away from what? Its the closest possible place for a multi modal transportation center and its a few blocks from trade and tryon. The development around it alone will integrate it right into uptown. 

[JRCLT]

Far away from what? Its the closest possible place for a multi modal transportation center and its a few blocks from trade and tryon. The development around it alone will integrate it right into uptown. 

I think RANYC is referring to time not location. It’s far in the future relatively so it’s hard to celebrate now when the tracks won’t be used for at least another 3 or 4 years…

[RANYC]

6 hours ago, JeanClt said:

I think RANYC is referring to time not location. It’s far in the future relatively so it’s hard to celebrate now when the tracks won’t be used for at least another 3 or 4 years…

JeanCLT is my whisperer

[Third Strike]

Regarding the proposed Salisbury-to-Asheville rail line, what kind of speed should we expect on this line? There’s about a two hour drive between the two cities, about 128 miles apart. If we’re talking speeds of 30mph, then it would take four plus hours, not including the stops in the cities between. Likewise, if the new Amtrak line does become a reality, I do hope CATS considers a bus that runs from Charlotte to Statesville, along I-77.  Maybe an extension of the planned MetroRapid BRT to the future Amtrak station in Statesville. 

[kermit]

14 hours ago, Third Strike said:

Regarding the proposed Salisbury-to-Asheville rail line, what kind of speed should we expect on this line? There’s about a two hour drive between the two cities, about 128 miles apart. If we’re talking speeds of 30mph, then it would take four plus hours, not including the stops in the cities between. Likewise, if the new Amtrak line does become a reality, I do hope CATS considers a bus that runs from Charlotte to Statesville, along I-77.  Maybe an extension of the planned MetroRapid BRT to the future Amtrak station in Statesville. 

original post deleted for clarity…

Here is a timetable from 1964 for the large, Carolina Special train which did not run from Asheville to Salisbury (but did go Avl-Statesville)

http://www.streamlinerschedules.com/concourse/track1/carolinaspecial196410.html

This train ran from Asheville to Statesville in 3:47 (with 11 more stops, most just flag stops, than a modern train would have). It was 116 rail miles for an average speed of 30.66 mph. If you subtract 20 minutes for the extra stops then you get a speed of 33.6mph. IMO this is as fast as NCDOT can reasonably expect a modern train to travel the route without spending serious money to replace the loops with a tunnel.

If we gave a handful of Swiss rail engineers a billion they could have trains running the route at 80mph without breaking a sweat.

[to my surprise the Asheville to Spartanburg run was only marginally faster (about 36mph) but only took 2.5 hours to get to the mainline.

 

Edited January 30, 2023 by kermit

[kermit]

Orthner probably isn't the most direct source of info on the Gateway station (as opposed to the now complete track work), but I am sure his statements reflect the latest thing he heard about developer plans from City of Charlotte folks. Open date keeps slipping which suggests little progress is being made or the developer has not yet decided to schedule this.

This public private partnership has let us down.

 

 

Edited March 8, 2023 by kermit

[kayman]

19 hours ago, kermit said:

Orthner probably isn't the most direct source of info on the Gateway station (as opposed to the now complete track work), but I am sure his statements reflect the latest thing he heard about developer plans from City of Charlotte folks. Open date keeps slipping which suggests little progress is being made or the developer has not yet decided to schedule this.

This public private partnership has let us down.

 

 

No this is fault lays squarely at the feet of NCDOT and NCRR.  I have been working on several passenger rail project management teams, and those two entities have made it known that Charlotte and these investments are afterthoughts. I made it known to them in said meetings that they SHOULD be building more passenger railway connections to Charlotte not only to Raleigh, but Columbia and Wilmington directly. This hubbing all of nearly all of the passenger rail routes through Raleigh and leaving Charlotte as just a pass-through is insulting and shows this state needs a wake up call.

Raleigh is not the center point of rail transportation in North Carolina. Charlotte needs to be prioritize by NCDOT Rail Division & NCRR by hubbing more routes to/from here to the aforementioned additional passengers rail routes to Columbia/Charleston, Wilmington in addition Raleigh and Atlanta. It shows with this project. 

Edited March 9, 2023 by kayman

[kermit]

2 hours ago, kayman said:

No this is fault lays squarely at the feet of NCDOT and NCRR.  I have been working on several passenger rail project management teams, and those two entities have made it known that Charlotte and these investments are afterthoughts. I made it known to them in said meetings that they SHOULD be building more passenger railway connections to Charlotte not only to Raleigh, but Columbia and Wilmington directly. This hubbing all of nearly all of the passenger rail routes through Raleigh and leaving Charlotte as just a pass-through is insulting and shows this state needs a wake up call.

Raleigh is not the center point of rail transportation in North Carolina. Charlotte needs to be prioritize by NCDOT Rail Division & NCRR by hubbing more routes to/from here to the aforementioned additional passengers rail routes to Columbia/Charleston, Wilmington in addition Raleigh and Atlanta. It shows with this project. 

I disagree (not necessarily about blame for Gateway stations slowness but the Raleigh hub stuff). South Carolina’s well established intransigence to passenger rail chokes off the most logical Charlotte rail extensions (Columbia, Greenville and Charleston). If the connection to Atlanta ever materializes, that route ridership will dwarf any route out of Raleigh. Other than Atlanta, the only other options for Charlotte are a duplicative route to Winston (which might make Asheville via Barber jct possible) or an even more redundant direct route to Wilmington (or Asheville via Salisbury which I don't count as Charlotte service due to its incredible slowness).

I do agree that Raleigh, from an economic perspective, isn’t more deserving of rail hub status than Charlotte. But from the perspective of the geography of the existing rail network combined with the political limitations of rail expansion, Raleigh is the best choice for expansion (e.g. Wilmington and the S-Line connection to the NEC) now. IMO the state is making the right choice building out from Raleigh at the moment.

Edited March 9, 2023 by kermit

[nicholas]

I am just wondering who exactly is primarily responsible for the constant Gateway delays.  Is it the city or developer or NCDOT?   Or a combination of some or all?