Charlotte Gateway Station and Railroad Improvements

[kermit]

5 minutes ago, KJHburg said:

  ...and it is now up to Orlando. 

Well, they are selling tickets now, for trips starting in September IIRC.

The only Orlando destination at the moment (starting in September) is MCO.

Edited May 23, 2023 by kermit

[CarolinaDaydreamin]

On 5/23/2023 at 10:16 AM, kermit said:

In terms of the cost of our (well, the developer actually) foot dragging on Gateway. The WSJ reports on housing price spikes around Brightline stations in South Florida. FWIW the trip from Miami to West Palm is just under 2 hours. For comparison its 1.5 hrs to Greensboro and 3:11 to Raleigh from Charlotte at current (slower than necessary) speeds.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-biggest-south-florida-housing-boom-is-near-the-rail-stations-d6101467

Miami to West Palm is an hour 15, not 2, but importantly every hour with much nicer cars and stations.

Edited May 24, 2023 by CarolinaDaydreamin

[kermit]

Tucked into the end of an article from Trains on the new Piedmont frequency was this statement that caught my eye:

Quote

Also on tap is moving to downtown Charlotte, where the Rail Division completed Phase I trackwork but the city still needs to partner with a developer for a multi-modal facility.

This could be nothing more than lazy reporting (but that would be unusual for Trains), or it could be that the NCDOT interview subjects let slip that the existing(?) developer for Gateway  (that was scheduled to release its developer agreement with the city this past April) has dropped out of the project. Not sure which.

https://www.trains.com/trn/news-reviews/news-wire/special-report-on-amtrak-round-trips-north-carolina-to-add-another-piedmont-trip-in-july/

Edited May 26, 2023 by kermit

[kayman]

On 5/16/2023 at 6:28 PM, Phillydog said:

Georgia has done close to nothing for rail - the notion that Atlanta should be the rail hub for the SE is bull.  Charlotte can, and should be.  I'm sick and tired of assuming Atlanta has to be the best, biggest, etc. in the SE.  If Atlanta had taken to the idea that it should play second fiddle to anyone else, it wouldn't be where it is today.  Charlotte (and North Carolina), God bless us, need to stand up and fight.   North Carolina needs to focus on continuing to build its intrastate network (Asheville and Wilmington to Charlotte and Raleigh-Durham) and the high speed link to Richmond and the Northeast Corridor.  Screw SC and GA for the moment.  

Around of full applause! This is coming from someone who used to live in Atlanta before relocating to Charlotte. Atlanta is TRASH when it comes to regional rail transit and bigger trash when it long-distance rail transportation.  They flushed their intermodal station down the commode in lieu of the Gulch development now known as Centennial Yards by the *sshats who attempted to screw over Charlotte with the Epicentre known as CIM Group. 

Charlotte can and should be the SE transportation hub for rail & air transportation, period.

[wilmore]

NCDOT wants to put a Heavy Rail Maintenance Facility in Wilmore and is in town looking into it this week. Supposedly this has been a plan since 2002, and even then the neighborhood had complaints about how this was not a good location for such a facility. 

If they end up building this facility, it would result in Summit Ave. closing over I-77 - this is a great spot for connectivity between Wilmore/SouthEnd and Wesley Heights/West Side. I'm sure there are better locations for such a large, heavy industrial facility than 1 mile from downtown in a very popular area (this facility could also impact the potential sale of Pipe & Foundry land as they would want Summit connectivity as well). 

[southslider]

Carson Blvd will be extended to Clarkson St to mitigate any closing of Summit Ave.

[kermit]

5 hours ago, wilmore said:

NCDOT wants to put a Heavy Rail Maintenance Facility in Wilmore…

I'm sure there are better locations for such a large, heavy industrial facility than 1 mile from downtown in a very popular area 

I  concerned about connectivity issues in a part of town that would really benefit from a more robust grid. Having said that, this parcel is heavily contaminated (I believe it was a bleachery at one point), I suspect it is so contaminated that residential (beside the most active railroad in the state) might not make sense. Given the parcel’s depth, commercial might not pencil out either.

FWIW this project was clearly discussed as phase 2 of the passenger equipment facilities back when NCDOT got the grant in 2009 (uncertain about date). Proximity to Gateway station is also important for this facility.

Edited June 7, 2023 by kermit

[jjwilli]

21 minutes ago, southslider said:

Carson Blvd will be extended to Clarkson St to mitigate any closing of Summit Ave.

Not sure how NCDOT would do this in a cost effective enough way for them to fund it with 277 and the off ramp in the way.

Either way, putting a large rail maintenance this close to uptown would be a huge mistake. Extend the passenger service to the airport and use some of their abundant land for the facilities. Airport parking could double as “park and ride”  for those looking to take the train and those in Kannapolis / Salisbury can take the train to the airport. Seems like a win win to me.

[kermit]

4 hours ago, jjwilli said:

 

Either way, putting a large rail maintenance this close to uptown would be a huge mistake. Extend the passenger service to the airport and use some of their abundant land for the facilities. Airport parking could double as “park and ride”  for those looking to take the train and those in Kannapolis / Salisbury can take the train to the airport. Seems like a win win to me.

The airport site  is certainly a logical plan (along with using the state-owned P&N tracks in downtown Gastonia) however extending trains past the current facility is a problem very similar to the Red Line. Norfolk Southern is VERY reluctant to allow more passenger trains on the line they own and where their shiny new intermodal facility is located. This new facility is also phase 2 of the existing passenger equipment storage yard. The plans for this have been in the books (and available from the NCDOT website) for more than a decade (I did not remember that they planned to close Summit). Both these facilities (phase one and two)  is connected to Gateway station via its own tracks (a former siding), but these tracks do not extend beyond Summit.

I do need to ask, since this is a site that is adjacent to a busy railroad and an eight lane interstate is 500 feet away, how much damage can this facility do to the neighborhood? Are we sure there will be measurable quality of life impacts from this (other than the connectivity loss).

Edited June 7, 2023 by kermit

[southslider]

4 hours ago, jjwilli said:

Not sure how NCDOT would do this in a cost effective enough way for them to fund it with 277 and the off ramp in the way.

Carson would no longer connect to 277 and be extended to Clarkson and/or continue to Freedom. Such changes are all part of the 77 South project that includes reconfiguring the 77/Belk interchange. 

[jjwilli]

8 hours ago, kermit said:

I do need to ask, since this is a site that is adjacent to a busy railroad and an eight lane interstate is 500 feet away, how much damage can this facility do to the neighborhood? Are we sure there will be measurable quality of life impacts from this (other than the connectivity loss).

The facility and land needed for this project are now considerably larger than first planned 20 years ago. NCDOT doesn’t exactly do “pretty” projects so this project would be an eyesore at best and an eyesore with noise and light pollution at worst for all of the homes on Merriman between Summit and Spruce. Along with all of the homes on Spruce as it curves toward 77. Throw in the planned 77 expansion with its unknown impacts (unless you are @southslider) and this is a death by 1,000 cuts just as things are looking promising with Charlotte Pipe moving away. 

No one lives that close to the Rail Yard north of the city and yet people still want to turn it into a park. Why should we make the same mistake and  build something similar on the south side of Uptown? And on a property that could be part of future TOD with the silver like one day coming through. Seems short sighted.

[kermit]

^ can you point me towards a link to the current plan?

[southslider]

4 hours ago, jjwilli said:

No one lives that close to the Rail Yard north of the city and yet people still want to turn it into a park. Why should we make the same mistake and  build something similar on the south side of Uptown? And on a property that could be part of future TOD with the silver like one day coming through. Seems short sighted.

25th St Station next to the much larger actual railyard north of town has hardly been hurting for TOD. And if the complaint is how that limits TOD to one side, then what Wilmore surely needs is TOD squeezing it from BOTH Blue Line and Silver Line.  Besides, a future station could always build a pedestrian bridge, like Sugar Creek Station, another area hardly hurting for TOD.

And really, any station next to this much smaller "railyard" isn't even funded, and just a concept along the second phase of an also unfunded first phase of Silver Line. The passenger rail maintenance facility is actually programmed, and very much needed to support the very nearby relocated passenger rail station, which is ironically moving from being next to that truly big railyard just north of Uptown.

[jjwilli]

12 hours ago, kermit said:

can you point me towards a link to the current plan?

This is all that I have seen circulating out there on this.

Rail Yard Expansion Graphic 5.24.23 (1).pdf

[kermit]

8 hours ago, jjwilli said:

This is all that I have seen circulating out there on this.

Rail Yard Expansion Graphic 5.24.23 (1).pdf 7.94 MB · 11 downloads

Thanks for that!

It is significantly larger than proposed originally. As best I can tell from a first look:

1) the maintenance  area has been moved beside the current storage yard (currently unused Gold District, historically industrial land) to the east of Summit (this is new). This area is mostly below the grade of the Gold District and a retaining wall will separate the facility from the hood (providing some sound buffering).

They indicate the cursed brewery building on Graham will be acquired which I find funny…

2) the bottom image indicates shop facilities will be built so any maintenance activities will be inside (and based on similar projects the walls will be insulated for sound)

3) Summit is not getting closed so the facility will not significantly impact connectivity (perhaps another 3-4 short trains per day crossing the street).

4)  the new tracks West of Summit (adjacent to Merriman) were part of the original plan. But now they appear to only be used for storage, so that means relatively few crossings of Summit, and relatively little noise (but I am not implying it will be completely silent) on the Wilmore side of the facility. There are substantial buffers between the houses on Merriman and the storage tracks, I believe this area is also below the grade of residential  Wilmore.

I am genuinely intrigued about what they will use this storage space for, this is a substantial increase in capacity. 

 

 

Edited June 9, 2023 by kermit

[ajfunder]

To be quite honest, I don’t see a lot of issue with this location. As stated, it is primarily indoors and looks like it will be well buffered from the neighborhood. They also did a nice job on the existing NCDOT building on the site.

Also, this is a passenger rail facility and the operations will be very different than a freight yard. Also, the proximity to Gateway and the ability to get trains to and from the station platforms without NS dispatching is a huge win for fluidity of operations.

Also, it would make an excellent facility for commuter train sets to be serviced.  
 

All in all, while it is not an ideal urban land use, it will help facilitate a critical service for urban dwellers and overall, considering the existing conditions, it is still probably the best spot for this without breaking the bank.

[AltNative]

Regardless if the stadium moves to pipe and foundry land or not, whatever is eventually built on the portion south of 277 will have almost no connection to southend/gold district because of this rail facility. Can't help but think this is a really poor move.  The southern portion of P&F land will be an island bound by interstates and an impenetrable rail facility. 

On top of that, the facilities are going to be SO unattractive and a permanent scar on this area that is seeing so much growth and still has so much potential.  If they actually incorporated some architecture into the facilities I could possibly stomach it. But you know they're going to build the cheapest buildings possible with the cheapest exterior finishes. What an absolute shame

edited for clarity

Edited June 9, 2023 by AltNative

[CLT Development]

36 minutes ago, AltNative said:

Regardless if the stadium moves to pipe and foundry land or not, whatever is eventually built on the portion south of 277 will have almost no connection to southend/gold district because of this rail facility. Can't help but think this is a really poor move.  Future developments on P&F land south of  have connection to the Gold District. Otherwise it will be an island bound by interstates and an impenetrable rail facility. 

On top of that, the facilities are going to be SO unattractive and a permanent scar on this area that is seeing so much growth and still has so much potential.  If they actually incorporated some architecture into the facilities I could possibly stomach it. But you know they're going to build the cheapest buildings possible with the cheapest exterior finishes. What an absolute shame

Its not moving to Pipe and Foundry, its being renovated in place.

[kermit]

I believe the increased size of this facility is to accomodate the SEHSR (ish) corridor plans for 6(ish) DC bound trains per day over the S-Line.

Edited June 10, 2023 by kermit

[KJHburg]

Was just up in downtown Greensboro and they already and have for years what we are planning at the gateway center minus the tall towers.

Their Amtrak station is connected their local bus transfer center and their regional intercity bus station (Greyhound) all in one place walking distance to downtown (2 blocks from S Elm) interior photos of their railroad Amtrak  station.  

Edited June 11, 2023 by KJHburg

[DMann]

Reminds me of the station in Vancouver for the Canadian Rail System

[carolinaboy]

Dumb question from an out-of-town-Charlotte-enthusiast, did Charlotte ever have a downtown/uptown train station or has it always been in the northern section? Seems odd that such a large city may never have had a downtown/uptown station. If it did where was it and what happened to it? Was there ever a grand terminal/station?

[kermit]

On 6/12/2023 at 10:47 AM, carolinaboy said:

Dumb question from an out-of-town-Charlotte-enthusiast, did Charlotte ever have a downtown/uptown train station or has it always been in the northern section? Seems odd that such a large city may never have had a downtown/uptown station. If it did where was it and what happened to it? Was there ever a grand terminal/station?

Never a grand terminal station (all trains were on their way to Atlanta) but there was a downtown station roughly where Gateway is going. The station and tracks were at grade, station was removed when they raised the tracks above street level. 

I believe this was torn down in 1962(?) and they moved to the current station.

 

 

Edited July 9, 2023 by kermit

[carolinaboy]

26 minutes ago, kermit said:

Never a grand terminal station (all trains were on their way to Atlanta) but there was a downtown station roughly where Gateway is going. The station and tracks were at grade, it was removed when they raised the tracks above street level. 

I believe this was torn down in 1962(?) and they moved to the current station.

 

 

Thanks for the information. That building was beautiful.

[videtur quam contuor]

There was and is a surviving building for the Seaboard Air Line just off N Tryon at 12th (or 13th.) The building survives after use as a day mens shelter and food distribution center and other diminished uses. Charlotte did not have a Union station. Union stations mix lines and tickets, and transfers between lines may be had at a single location.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_station_(Seaboard_Air_Line_Railroad)

edit: Maybe 30 years ago I rode my bike to the Seaboard station from idle curiosity. It appeared vacant but I recall clearly the presence at that time of an antique baggage wagon on the platform. Not as good condition as this one. Still, a remarkable memento. (do rail lines continue to use such devices as these baggage/freight carts?)

https://doyleschuckwagons.com/products/antique-burlington-lines-railroad-baggage-cart

 

Edited June 12, 2023 by videtur quam contuor