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GRDadof3

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This is a huge and great advance for the neighborhood around St. Mary's. Anyone who has talked with Phil McCorkle and other leaders at St. Mary's can attest to their commitment to the area. He is a stand-up guy.

St. Mary's has a very real plan to improve its neighborhood as well as its health care offerings in Grand Rapids. While it is somewhat saddening to see buildings come down, anyone who has driven past this particular block can see that this new plan will better serve the broader improvement of the area... adding more value to the neighborhood both aesthetically and financially.

Congrats to St. Mary's and Advantage Health. I look forward to seeing even more of their improvements in the years ahead.

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This is a huge and great advance for the neighborhood around St. Mary's. Anyone who has talked with Phil McCorkle and other leaders at St. Mary's can attest to their commitment to the area. He is a stand-up guy.

St. Mary's has a very real plan to improve its neighborhood as well as its health care offerings in Grand Rapids. While it is somewhat saddening to see buildings come down, anyone who has driven past this particular block can see that this new plan will better serve the broader improvement of the area... adding more value to the neighborhood both aesthetically and financially.

Congrats to St. Mary's and Advantage Health. I look forward to seeing even more of their improvements in the years ahead.

A lot of stand up people brought about urban renewal too. I would agree if there was some kind of assurance that the total plan comes together. But right now we have a big new surface parking lot West of St. Mary's (where two similar homes were torn down), with no plans to replace the lot. And now we're getting another big surface parking lot North of St. Mary's, with no plans to replace it. How much demand for medical office space will there be to fill all these new envisioned buildings? There's a huge glut right now.

I look forward to improvements in the years ahead too, because it can't quite get any worse.

2298270367_3d8d5b85a2_o.jpg

St. Mary's Hospital: Where at least your car is taken care of

(5 to 4 vote. Hmm, wonder how it came down?)

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Article in the Press

Apparently several commissioners voted against because of the houses being torn down for an indefinite plan for Phases II and III.

Commissioners who voted for the project, including demolition, were: David Soet, Shaula Johnston (Downtown Alliance fame), James Doezema, Paul Potter, and Harold Hamilton.

Voting against: Gabriel Works, Nathan Koetje, Patrick Miles, and Herb Ranta.

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As for the parking lots, Mary Free Bed has responsibility as well. I don't believe they are all St. Mary's. St. Mary's actually added a floor to their current parking garage project to help reduce surface lots in the future.

St. Mary's has the big picture in mind. After personally talking with hospital leaders I have confidence they are on the right path. It is not St. Mary's fault alone that the area around the hospital fell into such disrepair with no real planning. Commercial, residential, medical, school, and other use that provided no neighborhood feel.

I declined to buy several of the apartment buildings north and west of St. Mary's about 10 years ago because the area was such a deserted section of town. Today, the area is building an identity that has taken years to plan and will take several more to develop. I appreciate their vision to develop a walking neighborhood once again. With ICCFs plans south of Wealthy, Heritage Hill to the east, Division and Cathedral Square to the west, the area around the hospital has the potential to be one of the best urban areas in the city.

I do not generally advocate tearing down historic properties, but put in context this is a great opportunity that could not be similarly achieved any other way.

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I declined to buy several of the apartment buildings north and west of St. Mary's about 10 years ago because the area was such a deserted section of town. Today, the area is building an identity that has taken years to plan and will take several more to develop. I appreciate their vision to develop a walking neighborhood once again.

I do not generally advocate tearing down historic properties, but put in context this is a great opportunity that could not be similarly achieved any other way.

It can't continue building it's historic IDENTITY if all the historic buildings get demolished. It's great to know that St. Marys is building the neighborhood a new one though. <_< Sounds like we're back in the 60s. This same mentality lost us our absolutely gorgeous city hall, courthouse, hotels, trains stations, and homes in the era of urban renewal. Once it's destroyed there is NO rebuilding it.

There is also an OPPORTUNITY to build around the housing, move the housing, or rehab the housing for their own use. It speaks volumes of St. Mary's VALUES when money drives them to demolish historic housing when they, like I said before, have the OPPORTUNITY to support the surrounding neighborhood's rebounding identity.

I am all for this new development and its benefits to the neighborhood. It, however, makes me sick in their execution of it.

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It can't continue building it's historic IDENTITY if all the historic buildings get demolished. It's great to know that St. Marys is building the neighborhood a new one though. <_< Sounds like we're back in the 60s. This same mentality lost us our absolutely gorgeous city hall, courthouse, hotels, trains stations, and homes in the era of urban renewal. Once it's destroyed there is NO rebuilding it.

There is also an OPPORTUNITY to build around the housing, move the housing, or rehab the housing for their own use. It speaks volumes of St. Mary's VALUES when money drives them to demolish historic housing when they, like I said before, have the OPPORTUNITY to support the surrounding neighborhood's rebounding identity.

I am all for this new development and its benefits to the neighborhood. It, however, makes me sick in their execution of it.

Agreed. Actually, the only development plan that anyone has seen is the added office building on Cherry, and the added surface parking lots. Sorry MiGuyz, but we have to go on the information we have.

Just imagine, as you approach St. Mary's from Fulton Street on Jefferson, you'll see a huge parking lot, then a parking garage at the Cherry/Jefferson corner, followed by surface parking on the West side of the street, and on the East side all the way to Wealthy. Correction, beyond Wealthy. Lovely.

The Planning Commission should rename themselves the Parking Commission. Wait, the Parking Commission has actually helped facilitate 38 Commerce and Gallery on Fulton recently. Bizarre.

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MiGuyz, I really want to believe, but Im just not seeing this grand vision that is supposed to coming from St. Mary's.

GRdad's map of their parking lots, while dramatic as it is, still leaves out the two huge lots south of Wealthy and a smaller lot just North of Wealthy. All of this is for nothing other than parking cars! No commerce, no entertainment, no nothing! The hospital may have all types of plans and drawings of a walkable neighborhood that make great PR, but they have made virtually ZERO efforts in showing us that they are actually serious about any of it. Just saying that they promise something great if we just let them bulldoze just a little more land for parking lots isnt anything other than PAAP (Parking And A Promise).

I dont think that they will follow through with any of these plans. Having no timetable will allow them to drag their feet for as long as it takes to get people to forget that they were supposed to be doing anything. They are under no legal obligation to build anything. They can just as easily keep those lots as lots for the next 25-35 years. If they were committed to this part of the city, they wouldn't be demolishing as much of it as possible and then just sitting on it for decades. Some of those lots have been there for almost 20 years! At least Azzar keeps the buildings on his properties standing!

I live in that part of town. I bike and drive past that hospital almost daily. It has got to be one of the most depressing, backward parts of the DT area. The contrast between these guys and the Spectrum Health area just illustrates the difference between a area where there is real, serious development, that has infused real energy into a formally depressed part of town, and guys that seem like they are just pulling a con job on the city just to satisfy their bizarre need for more parking.

It may not be their fault that the area has fallen into disrepair, but have they helped with their surface lot building spree?

Sorry for the rambling, but I just don't get this city sometimes.

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GRdad's map of their parking lots, while dramatic as it is, still leaves out the two huge lots south of Wealthy and a smaller lot just North of Wealthy. All of this is for nothing other than parking cars! No commerce, no entertainment, no nothing! The hospital may have all types of plans and drawings of a walkable neighborhood that make great PR, but they have made virtually ZERO efforts in showing us that they are actually serious about any of it. Just saying that they promise something great if we just let them bulldoze just a little more land for parking lots isnt anything other than PAAP (Parking And A Promise).

Sorry for the rambling, but I just don't get this city sometimes.

You're right GRU. This is called a "parking crunch":

2299293196_62ec21bb1e_o.jpg

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On the drive home from work I realized something else. Since when is St. Mary's lacking funds? The past two decades haven't been all that bad in the health care industry. With all this new, multi-million dollar development occuring on their campus, you would think they'd have enough cash on hand to save just three historic homes and show, by example, how much they care and support the community inwhich they reside. Are we really going to let this health care company do this?

Another note, when was the last time the planning commission OK'd the demolition of old homes like that? And why was their decision so quick? I would have thought the commissioners learned by now not to demolish old stock housing. I feel they made a huge mistake and they should be called out on it; especially those who OK'd it.

This does sound like the 60s and it truly makes me want to vomit.

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The contrast between these guys and the Spectrum Health area just illustrates the difference between a area where there is real, serious development, that has infused real energy into a formally depressed part of town, and guys that seem like they are just pulling a con job on the city just to satisfy their bizarre need for more parking.

Let's not forget that much of Spectrum's rapid development has come from large private donations that St. Mary's does not receive. Spectrum also tore down its share of old buildings - that was not all vacant land.

St. Mary's is working hard at its extensive neighborhood renewal plan. It is very committed to the neighborhood and is creating a useful city environment. There is a practical side to preservation. Imagine driving though the St. Mary's area when it is filled with park-like grounds, retail stores line the streets with residential above, and the streets are not empty at night. Sure, you can argue that may never happen, but I'm not aware of any recent commitments to the community made by St. Mary's which they have not kept. As far as I can see, the area has had significant development in the recent couple of years. As for the lots south of Wealthy, the plan is going to be announced in more detail by this summer from ICCF.

My suggestion to anyone who wants to save historic property - rather than public (i.e. old city hall, etc.) - depends on personal financial circumstances: move into an historic neighborhood, renovate some historic rental property (obviously those in question were for sale), join an historic neighborhood association (you don't need to live there), join a related city commission or rally support before there is an immediate threat. Most people I know who are involved and have a stake in the area around St. Mary's - including many historical property lovers - are pleased with today's Commission decision.

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Spectrum also tore down its share of old buildings - that was not all vacant land.

Imagine driving though the St. Mary's area when it is filled with park-like grounds, retail stores line the streets with residential above, and the streets are not empty at night. Sure, you can argue that may never happen, but I'm not aware of any recent commitments to the community made by St. Mary's which they have not kept.

Most people I know who are involved and have a stake in the area around St. Mary's - including many historical property lovers - are pleased with today's Commission decision.

MiGuyz, I like to cordially agree to disagree.

Spectrum did much of that demolition in the 60s I believe, when most of the planning commisioners were a bunch of idiots (and yet they still are apparently). It was wrong then and it is sinfully wrong today. This development for St. Mary's is in 2008. Preservation of historic buildings is KEY to any neighborhood's rebounding IDENTITY. It is a shame that the public hasn't realized that yet.

Why imagine when what's left can be preserved? If they want to bulldoze some 60s era cheap warehouse with no character, I'd be all for it. But in NO WAY am I happy with them demolishing historic homes.

Oh, and those "historical property lovers" are not historical property lovers or they obviously would have put up a better fight. I'd bet anything they're cheerleaders for the hospital.

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MiGuyz, I like to cordially agree to disagree.

Spectrum did much of that demolition in the 60s I believe, when most of the planning commissioners were a bunch of idiots (and yet they still are apparently). It was wrong then and it is sinfully wrong today. This development for St. Mary's is in 2008. Preservation of historic buildings is KEY to any neighborhood's rebounding IDENTITY. It is a shame that the public hasn't realized that yet.

Why imagine when what's left can be preserved? If they want to bulldoze some 60s era cheap warehouse with no character, I'd be all for it. But in NO WAY am I happy with them demolishing historic homes.

Oh, and those "historical property lovers" are not historical property lovers or they obviously would have put up a better fight. I'd bet anything they're cheerleaders for the hospital.

The people I refer to are not only historic property lovers, but dedicated preservationists. You would obviously be surprised to know the support this project has from well-connected, long-term Grand Rapids "historical property lovers" who have been involved in saving this city's buildings for years.

Preservation must be put in context: every property is not worth saving when you weigh the outcome. Look at these individual properties in relation to what is around them, and the choice is not as difficult as when a neighborhood or block is destroyed. Have you driven by the block in question? Health Park Central holds the promise to unify downtown with the south part of Heritage Hill and beyond.

I would like to hear any personal preservation and historic renovation stories from the very people critical of this demolition. As I've mentioned before, my personal historic preservation experience has been acknowledged in three different cities. The idea of saving every building regardless of its value is no more than a t-shirt slogan.

This is my educated and informed opinion.

Preservation and Gentrification: This may be a good topic for a UP get together.

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The people I refer to are not only historic property lovers, but dedicated preservationists. You would obviously be surprised to know the support this project has from well-connected, long-term Grand Rapids "historical property lovers" who have been involved in saving this city's buildings for years.

Preservation must be put in context: every property is not worth saving when you weigh the outcome. Look at these individual properties in relation to what is around them, and the choice is not as difficult as when a neighborhood or block is destroyed. Have you driven by the block in question? Health Park Central holds the promise to unify downtown with the south part of Heritage Hill and beyond.

I would like to hear any personal preservation and historic renovation stories from the very people critical of this demolition. As I've mentioned before, my personal historic preservation experience has been acknowledged in three different cities. The idea of saving every building regardless of its value is no more than a t-shirt slogan.

This is my educated and informed opinion.

Preservation and Gentrification: This may be a good topic for a UP get together.

I COMPLETELY agree with you MiGuyz. Selectively clearing buildings for a "greater good" of unifying different portions of downtown is a great idea. Take 38 Commerce for instance. Tearing down that 2 story building, which is not really facilitating a full street wall of activity, and replacing it with the new liner development, is a worthwhile "trade-up". The JA Building is another example. I wouldn't be heart-broken to see it gone if it meant something went in its place that would inject life into neighboring historic buildings. Israels was a hard one, because most people were willing to say goodbye, but now I wonder whether that corner at Louis Campau and Pearl really had a net gain. The parking lot that used to be behind Israels? Certainly.

Where this all breaks down though is that it requires a commitment on behalf of the demolitionist (for lack of a better word). In this case, there is no plan, no plan, no plan. Even the applicant specifically states that. And we have come to witness a recent widespread creation of acres and acres of surface parking in the St. Mary's area. And to be honest, I've been hearing about this ICCF plan for South of Wealthy for 3 or 4 years now, with no movement. In the meantime, it's starting to look like Brush Park in that area (South of Wealthy).

So maybe the St. Mary's area is going through a "Renovation Revolution" of its own, where it will take a lot of time and shock value to get to the other side. But in the meantime, it's very painful to watch. A lot of that depends on the trustworthiness and track record of the applicant.

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  • 5 months later...

(Resurrecting this from February)

I just happened to go by this area, and the three homes now appear to be going through "demolition by neglect". All look vacant now, and almost look like they are being prepped for the wrecking ball. Let's hope they start on the new project soon.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Now we are getting those ugly, useless homes out of the way so we can really get some good A-Quality parking lots in the area!

Dont you know how hard it is to find a parking spot for St. Mary's? With all of the density that has gone up in the area, it is almost easier to just walk, which is nicer anyway since the area is full of wonderful new shops and cafes.....

I cant even keep a straight face typing that. <_<

Oh yeah I think no one should get their hopes up that St. Mary is planing on doing anything development wise with this area for maybe the next 5-9 years.

There are no such things as temporary parking lots in GR.

Especially with St. Mary's.

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