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Town Center Marketplace


vdogg

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THANK YOU VIRGINIA BEACH FOR BEING SUCH A RAGING DISAPPOINTMENT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sessoms, if you are truly the man I hope you are, you will pull some strings and get this mess thrown out.

WHAT THE HELL WAS THE POINT OF TOWN CENTER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Armada Hoffler, where are you right now raising hell around here and threatening never to invest a dime in this city again if they let the TC idea fall to pieces by the seams.

THIS SEA OF PARKING WILL RUIN ALL JUSTIFICATION FOR LIGHT RAIL....DID ANYONE THINK OF THAT BEFORE THEY OKED THIS MONSTROSITY.

I need an advil....

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I feel your guys frustration when I saw the pdf, talk about a slap in the face for the urban expansion for the city. It would be one thing if the town center wasn't working or growing for a suburban developer to stay the course, but when it is clearly something that the city is willing to throw money at, one would thing a developer would be throwing together an urban plan of some sort to ask the city for more money.

Well on the plus side, with or without this property, with the expansion that is going on south of the tracks, the possibility of what could happen at the Circuit City site and of course the redevelopment of Pembroke Mall (if that ever happens) into a street grid with a new urban mall, VB will still have a pretty large downtown area.

The downside to this project is that it will end all hopes of urban redevelopment moving west of Indy.

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Well one thing comes to mind when looking at this is namely the economy. I'm not sure more high-rises such as condos or such are feasible thus they scaled back - a whole lot I might add. Though on the other hand TC is going forward with the next phase. Of course they have the city and Armada Hoffler kicking in huge amounts of cash to get things moving. I don't know, there has to be something else albeit on a smaller scale that could be built of a more urban nature. Maybe something in phases might work here.

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Well one thing comes to mind when looking at this is namely the economy. I'm not sure more high-rises such as condos or such are feasible thus they scaled back - a whole lot I might add. Though on the other hand TC is going forward with the next phase. Of course they have the city and Armada Hoffler kicking in huge amounts of cash to get things moving. I don't know, there has to be something else albeit on a smaller scale that could be built of a more urban nature. Maybe something in phases might work here.

A fake urban street would definitely be better than this idea. One that is nothing more than a glorified shopping center, but still uses the main street idea and pushes all its parking to the back. Not the greatest ideas, but definitely better than this. I hope it hits some sort of fall out, I would rather see the site stay in its current state than become this project.

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Wow... maybe I am just too oblivious about VB to care but I don't see what the big deal is. I honestly never saw TC spreading west across Ind bc it is pedestrian unfriendly, traffic choked and already full of strip mall crap anyway. I would much rather see TC spread eastward to the area where B&N is now, which I think will happen eventually. Even in areas with light rail, there are these kinds of lame developments in the suburban areas, which is what this is after all. At least with this, it would be tax revenue coming in and would maybe force TC to up the ante and make the TC area a little more dense (i.e. a building over 40 stories would be nice).

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This is sad!

With smart development and good design, the developer could do better.

It would probably be a better idea for the city to decline any attempt to build this poor extention of TC.

Looks like he is trying to save the old HQ building and such.

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This is nauseating drivel. I almost sarcastically got excited about Buffalo Wild Wings as an anchor, and Office Max no less! ... but no.

There are a million ways this could've been scaled back, but kept urban. Stretch the grid across Indy, put up a few small buildings (still, mid-rise, so they're not ridiculously dwarfed by Westin) in the first phase along Indy, include some unique retail, maybe restaurants to pull some people across from the mall and TC. Second phase, in a few years once the market has begun to rebound, start going increasingly dense and vertical again. This would be a little more economically feasible, maintain the city's hoped urban-character for Pembroke, and the scaling from lower/mid-rise buildings along Indy to high-rises a block or two back won't overwhelm people driving into the CBD all at once.. creating a dynamic skyline. Jeez ANYTHING would have looked better. As someone who frequents Jefferson Commons, I must say that development was one of the biggest disappointments, perhaps second only to Patrick Henry Place, on the Peninsula.

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I decided to write an email to the city manager James Spore.

Dear Mr. Spore,

I have learned recently about the new plans for the old HQ site now known as the Town Center Marketplace and I would like to share my feelings if I might. First, Virginia Beach has done a fantastic job building up our fledgling downtown. As someone who lived near Town Center for 10 years it was quite exciting watching as Town Center was built from the ground up. Town Center adds a sense of place, something not really found in our largely suburban city. I have also observed the old HQ property as it sat empty and somewhat derelict for years. In times past I have seen plans for a wonderful new plan for the site which included high rise apartments, hotels, and retail in a village type setting that really complemented Town Center very well. The plan really seemed to invoke a sense a place and to define the area. Now, I have come upon new plans for the site and I must say I am most disappointed and quite honestly upset. Instead of complementing the Town Center the new plans are hugely suburban in nature and are basically another strip mall which can be found in plenty of other areas in our city. While they may offer attractive architecture, I feel the plan offers no cohesiveness to Town Center and actually detracts largely from the plans the city has for mixed-use development in the immediate area. Development such as is quickly forgettable and offers little to pedestrians who may wander over from surrounding areas. There seem to be no public spaces which would encourage people to linger or to enjoy their surroundings. Perhaps enjoy a meal at a restaurant with alfresco seating as such. Instead is offered an auto-centric type center more suited for more suburban areas in which the car is king. Perhaps I was thinking pie in the sky but I was hoping for more mixed use development and one day a sky bridge linking this area with Town Center thus growing our small urban enclave over to the west. West of Town Center has huge potential with it's abundance of lots and other small strip centers that one day could grow our downtown. In my opinion the city should frown upon such auto-centric development in this targeted area and insist on a plan which will further the development of our downtown. Decisions made today impact our city for years to come and should be made with prudence and in keeping with the city's long range plans. My hope is that the city will reconsider these plans and suggest changes. Changes which will invoke a special place for locals and visitors, an experience to remember in the days and years to come.

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Is it me, or is the site map showing its massive suburbaness in all it's glory NOT on the loopnet site any more. It's kinda coincidental that I can't find it only mere days after us discussing it on this site...that's all I'm saying.

Is it possible that we stumbled upon older renderings that do not accurately depict the true nature of the project? Maybe we were angry about nothing!

Or, to prevent and uprising of UPers, the city decided to take it down before we marched in protest.

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This is the only information I am finding and it is coming from Loopnet. I went through the city council meetings this month and for december and no mention of this yet. It could be something that will be coming up at a city council meeting in the coming month.

"Phase 1 - totalling 15,000 sf small space retail available 6/1/09. Phase 2 -totalling 19,400 sf of small space and 60,000 sf Jr. Anchor space available 12/1/09." (from Loopnet)

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I think you guys are hitting the panic button WAAAAAYYYYY too early. First, there is no record I can find of this ever coming before Planning Commission. Second, he doesn't appear to have a sq. ft. leased, other than to Office Max, which is already on the property. Third, take a hard look at the amount of vacant small retail in the area. Starting to look like missing teeth, reminiscent of Houston, circa '83. Lots of capacity to absorb before this can pre-lease. And that isn't to mention the tough retail environment for the national chains, with whole chain liquidations reducing the number of potential lease holders. Finally, I don't have to mention the financing environment...... This is just a marketing fact sheet -- nothing more. He will never make the delivery dates on the sheet, so why panic?

On a broader note, this Sifen guy reminds me of a retail Buddy Gaddams -- never done anything more than mini-storage units and small strip malls (like the new one across from CF Jaguar). Now thinks he can be in the big leagues. Seen this before, and sometimes it works. But not in this financial environment, with no comparable track record and no large retail relationships. That said, Sifen is some one not to be taken lightly. Money buys you access. Also buys you a nice lot for your house.

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haha, I like that a "retail Buddy Gaddams." Yeah, I work the graveyards now on the weekends and I had nothing to do last night, so I dug around for a while and found nothing on this other that the fact sheet. It would of been different if I found an approval from the city or something. I am pretty sure that it is a safe bet that this site will look the same for the next 2-5 years. It would be nice if the developers in that area started working together though. It seems that has always been the way anything major happens in VB, when the developers do the work and the city sits on the sidelines hoping the developers know what they are doing....seeing that is what the city did throughout the 80's.

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Ok, I don't know how to propose this, but my idea for this property, or the Bill's flea market property, is for the city to invest in buiding a dense urban market. Similar to New Orleans "French Market" or Charleston's old "City Market." It would a great way to diversify the retail and allow a human, pedestrian element to the area. But it must be built correctly, not surrounded by parking lots. I would suggest that it be surrounded by very dense new urbanism, but with the residential streets dead-ending up to the parking located behind the markets. I say dead-ending to assure the tight side streets not be used as cut-throughs. But the fronts of the buildings could face and open air market build on auto-free streets. The Market stands could be broken down every night giving the residents an open-air framework to stroll through.

The market could be altered for every season and the housing should be very tight and only 4 or 5 stories high. This might not possibly be the best sight for this idea, but if would have to be close to town center and close to a future LRT stop. Plus anything is better than what's proposed.

http://musicmaven.files.wordpress.com/2008...nch-market1.jpg

http://k43.pbase.com/o4/06/497506/1/560011...renchMarket.jpg

http://archrecord.construction.com/news/da...renchmarket.asp

Any thoughts???

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Are you out of your fudgeing mind?. Bills Fleamarket and HQ property needs to be dense. Its prime urban property. Why would we put a large Farmers market in the middle of a urban center?.. Virginia Beach City Walk needs to be built there.. McVuanny Developers. Look it up at on google. Virginia Beach City Walk Project. Nomore TOwn Center marketplace or farmers market. We need real development here to see the city prosper!..

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though I do love the idea of the farmer's market relocating to somewhere in Pembroke...though last I heard, they have no desire leaving there current location.

I will agree with Harry, there is too much land there to be wasted on something this low density. Like the town center, it should be broken into phases that focus on specifics to the overall urban grid. What they wish to have happen with the current proposal could still happen on a much more urban scale that would require at least a garage to be built rather than a surface lot.

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Are you out of your fudgeing mind?. Bills Fleamarket and HQ property needs to be dense. Its prime urban property. Why would we put a large Farmers market in the middle of a urban center?.. Virginia Beach City Walk needs to be built there.. McVuanny Developers. Look it up at on google. Virginia Beach City Walk Project. Nomore TOwn Center marketplace or farmers market. We need real development here to see the city prosper!..

NO NO NO, Im not referring to a farmer's market at all. That would be a really bad idea. I'm talking about a dense city market. The kind of thing that you only find in city centers...If you have ever been to Charleston's city market, sometimes referred to as their old slave market, the you may get the picture. There would be little to no produce/food. It's mostly made of garments and things people have made themselves, or rare things that people are reselling. Like Notting Hill in London, or parts of New York. The key thing to note is that it is surrounded by dense housing, like an European village. Usually the streets wind and many are closed to auto traffic. Make no mistake, I am not referring to a farmer's market. This would be a dense mixed-use organic development...meaning the use on the street level will change with the season. Sorry to give the wrong impression.

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NO NO NO, Im not referring to a farmer's market at all. That would be a really bad idea. I'm talking about a dense city market. The kind of thing that you only find in city centers...If you have ever been to Charleston's city market, sometimes referred to as their old slave market, the you may get the picture. There would be little to no produce/food. It's mostly made of garments and things people have made themselves, or rare things that people are reselling. Like Notting Hill in London, or parts of New York. The key thing to note is that it is surrounded by dense housing, like an European village. Usually the streets wind and many are closed to auto traffic. Make no mistake, I am not referring to a farmer's market. This would be a dense mixed-use organic development...meaning the use on the street level will change with the season. Sorry to give the wrong impression.

I love things like this and think it is one of the things that really makes any city in Europe what it is, but I have yet to see this be successfully done in the US in the modern sense, which means doesnt take an old market and give them a new home. What you are suggesting is something that would grow more organically which is currently impossible when there is nothing for this to grow in. I am not being critical, just pointing out that the developer that owns that land wants to see a return, not what would inspire a street life. Usually when something like this is done from scratch on the modern market, it tends to by lined with chain stores that are pretending to be a market. Now a walkable street could be incorporated into this development that would allow shops and restaurants to spill out into the street a bit, even have it lead to a pedestrian square. Something like that would be much more realistic on a large scale development.

Much of these organic growths are going to be much harder to start up as construction costs rise.

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I love things like this and think it is one of the things that really makes any city in Europe what it is, but I have yet to see this be successfully done in the US in the modern sense, which means doesnt take an old market and give them a new home. What you are suggesting is something that would grow more organically which is currently impossible when there is nothing for this to grow in. I am not being critical, just pointing out that the developer that owns that land wants to see a return, not what would inspire a street life. Usually when something like this is done from scratch on the modern market, it tends to by lined with chain stores that are pretending to be a market. Now a walkable street could be incorporated into this development that would allow shops and restaurants to spill out into the street a bit, even have it lead to a pedestrian square. Something like that would be much more realistic on a large scale development.

Much of these organic growths are going to be much harder to start up as construction costs rise.

If this was to occur, I would only expect for it to built out of a city initiative. Not a developer. I don't quite know what the city owns and what is private surrounding town center. Hopefully the city is exploring buying the circuit city lot.

But these are 21st century ideas, and just because they are not in every American city doesn't mean they aren't possible. Charleston's is a prime working/functioning example. I make efforts to visit every couple years just to experience the market atmosphere. People are weaving baskets, and bringing in products from home, there's always random stuff that just kinda show up that you've never seen anywhere before.

But yes, I wouldn't imagine a private developer proposing this idea. I really wish city walk was still an offer on the table!! Giving the current market, it might be best to make this area a park for the next 5-10 years...much like how Norfolk kept the Macarthur mall property vacant for so long.

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Kind of like a dense swap meet? I've heard about the street vendors in NYC that sell stolen equipment and stuff. We saw them with DVDs out on the sidewalks of movies that weren't out on DVD at the time (Wall-E comes to mind).

Everyone always talked about turning Bill's into a huge nightclub. The dream of everyone. Heck, I still remember F/X :-)

How about a giant self-storage place... only the units have toilet/sink/shower and power so that the poor can live in them?

Hey when we having another get together?

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well, I have some good news and some bad news according to the city about this area. I am assuming the link we have been viewing is old but according to the email: Good news: There are no submitted or approved plans for the area including and immediately around the old HQ building. Bad news: There is an approved site plan for the portion of the Sifen property located closer to Independence that was the old Hannaford grocery store. All this to say only a potion of this whole site will be redeveloped right now and will probably be done so in a suburban fashion. I think we are fortunate the whole site is not going suburban - at least as of now.

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bad news!!!..Sifen was approved for this development project!

Date Last Verified: 2/5/2009

Property Description:

The Town Center Market Place is a new 135,000 SF Regional shopping center adjacent to the Virginia Beach Town Center. Anchor and Jr. Anchor spaces available from 10,000 sf to 100,000 sf. New small space shops totalling 50,000 sf with sizes from 1050 SF up to 10,000 SF. Busiest intersection in Virginia Beach. Phase 1 - totalling 15,000 sf small space retail available 6/1/09. Phase 2 -totalling 19,400 sf of small space and 60,000 sf Jr. Anchor space available 12/1/09.

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