atlrvr

SouthEnd Midrise Projects

4457 posts in this topic

I belive the process was as you have stated for South Haus. But it was in fact a variance they were asking for not rezoning.

I belive it went to city council with a recommendation from the zoning commission to deny.

City council approved it anyway. Kind of scary huh?

If I remember it was about 30% higher over zoning.

Anyone know exactly?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


I belive the process was as you have stated for South Haus. But it was in fact a variance they were asking for not rezoning.

I belive it went to city council with a recommendation from the zoning commission to deny.

City council approved it anyway. Kind of scary huh?

If I remember it was about 30% higher over zoning.

Anyone know exactly?

This does make one wonder what the point of zoning or planning recommendations are since they are often over-ridden, BUT in the case of South Blvd, they have been pretty consistent in their decisions for higher density and larger/taller buildings.

To me it becomes alarming or inconsistent if you find this happening in random places, but this corridor and a handful of others have long been the place where this type of development is considered positive by various city/county folks and departments.

If larger and taller buildings aren't to be built on busy main arterials like this, where should they be other than solely inside the 277 loop?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Southhaus was a full-rezoning, with the contentious issue being that they specifically asked for height greater than "height determining" ratio would allow......it is still below the 120' cap for MUDD and TOD-M districts, but greater than the height allowed based on lateral distance form Single-Family Residential zoning.

The Simpson Lighting property would be a different case in that it is laterally far enough from single-family zoning that 200' should be allowed, if not for the artifical 120' cap. I'm sure, this is their point in arguing to go to 200', but if I understand the code, I don't see how they would get the height they want without a full rezoning. Of course the fine print often contains loop-holes, and if there is one, I'm sure they're aware of it.

Lastly, while I understand why pushing the towers towards South Blvd. would be preferable to The Arlington owners, from a urban design standpoint, having the tallest portion away from the sidewalks is best as it makes for better pedestrian scale massing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

An attempt at a positive note, 2inthePink, would the expanding skyline moving East or West with all the new projects create new views for you with a project like this? Right now the skyline views are fairly compact in a single area, but Trademark moved it significantly, and Novare & The Vue & Wachovia will continue that pattern to the West, then NASCAR and projects in 2nd Ward will do the same for the East. Add to that closer projects like Royal Court, there should be views in more than one direction down the road.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As far as where to build tall buildings outside the loop I think its obvious.

1. Anywhere it is currently zoned. There are many parcels near here.

2. Where it needs rezoning, do it where it does not impinge on others property values.

3. Where it does not go against publicly published plans.

Also abut the sidewalks, there is 100 times the foot traffic using the sidewalk at the Light Rail side than the street side.

I would think that needs some consideration as well.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also abut the sidewalks, there is 100 times the foot traffic using the sidewalk at the Light Rail side than the street side.

I would think that needs some consideration as well.

This is actually a very good point. When my girlfriend and I go strolling down to Southend from downtown, we always enjoy this part of our walk. There really is a lot of other foot traffic we encounter along there too. Too bad it doesn't continue along the tracks into uptown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dubone.. B2 has a really small height something like 30" I think. That's one reason why they rezoned to TOD-M recently with a cap of 120'. They would need something with downtown in it to get above 120" without a variance.

They say they will ask for the height restriction to be waived and go to 200'.

Charlotte Native 80% of what you have pointed out would be blocked out with the current rendering.

75% of our new view would be of 2 buildings about 100' away.

I hope the new plan is better.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

..2. Where it needs rezoning, do it where it does not impinge on others property values.

3. Where it does not go against publicly published plans......

Seems to me that if either of these had been followed in the case of the building you are living in, it would not have been built. The Dilworth neighborhood fought against the Arlington saying in part that such a building was out of character and would hurt their property values. And the building actually built looks nothing like the original plans that were put forth for the Arlington.

Original rendering for the Arlington.

org_arlington.jpg

In other words, the residents of The Arlington are not going to get much sympathy on either of these reasons.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


As far as where to build tall buildings outside the loop I think its obvious.

It seems that 'obvious' will be defined differently by different people. To those of us without a personal interest in any of this, the whole corridor of South Blvd seems obvious. i can certainly understand your issues and frustrations with what is being proposed, but from an unbaised perspective regarding this corridor this site seems prime for higher and denser development.

I hope, for you, that this doesn't grow and exceed a height that takes your views, but if it does I can see the reasoning considered when allowing larger taller buildings.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2. Where it needs rezoning, do it where it does not impinge on others property values.

As a former appraiser of 12 years, I can tell you that this argument will be the one hardest to actually prove and hardest to get any traction with. You can argue loss of value while the other side can argue the same considering 'highest and best use' for their property and its potential value. It will be hard to prove that you will 'lose' value and you can't really argue for lost appreciation -- that is never guaranteed anyway.

That doesn't mean I don't think there will be an effect on your values, or at least in marketability, for a short period, but it will stablize. One could also argue that being around more neighborhood retail, shopping, dining, and other amenties that come with more development would increase your value due to enhanced amenties around you. It is also hard to say what will hurt your values since the building still isn't sold out from when it was completed a few years ago -- there are still developer held units that have never sold.

Though I'd hate to lose my views, The Arlington has always stood out to me as being a bit lonely in its location with not much other development and neighborhood services within walking distance. Before Nikko most of the commercial component of the building itself wasn't even occupied.

I really am not 'against' you or your issues with what is being built beside you and completely understand, but only trying to point out the many other factors that those not living in your situation will evaluate and the overall perspective from unbiased and unaffected viewpoints. If I were in your shoes I'd be upset too, but this is what is going on down this corridor and there will likely be more, including other parcels between you and downtown.

Edited by Charlotte_native

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Just a question for the Arlington. Did Gross get UMUD rezoning for this parcel, or did the Park Elevator building already have it before he proposed Big Pink?

Edit....also, the Harris original proposal mentions 40,000 sq. ft. of retail. If this turns out to be a grocery store, I would think that amenity could be worth some reduction in views...but that's just me, i hate driving.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First and foremost, I really do appreciate all input on this thread.

As far as the Arlington not being sold out, 95% of units facing downtown have sold, most a long time ago.

Resales on that side are doing pretty well. Less than 12% of residential units are unsold. Jim Gross and his partner

have put a pretty high value on them. He seems to think that holding on to them is a better investment than selling them

at market value.

I am not positive but I belive that this property was zoned UMUD when the Arlington was proposed.

Anyone know for sure?

My real issues is that the Simpson property was destined for TOD-M and it was published and expected.

This was the plan. People invested based on that plan. I understand that we need more density but, with

some sort of control. TOD-M provides for that density. I hear the comments that we need more density in

this area. So did city planners when they came up with the TOD-M zoning not too long ago.

Is 120' not enough? They thought so. Its fine to change if it does not have real demonstratable effect on the

value of others. Counter to some thought, I belive this is easily documentable in this case.

I belive a lot of the benefits that have been brought up are real. Its the Robin Hood theory here.

Do we want government that can take from one and give to another just because they can.

If its given to you it sound pretty good. If its taken from you, how would you feel?

If you feel this is right, move to Venezuela. Hugo Chavez needs more good commies.

Oops, sorry got a little carried away here. :wacko:

Also think about walking down the tracks. You will feel like you are in a tunnel passing this thing.

I'm all for this project. I think its fantastic, if its built under the the very newly rezoned heights.

No doubt a grocery would be awesome!

If they go over 120' they should just through the zoning system out.

Its not worth the paper its written on. (or the disk space its stored on)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If they go over 120' they should just through the zoning system out.

Its not worth the paper its written on. (or the disk space its stored on)

I still don't understand your shock. The Arlington had the zoning altered to build to the height it currently stands in order to provide your views. Should that not have occured? Because it did, it seems very plausible that development to the height of at least the Arlington is reasonable to city planning. A better argument would be to state the adverse effects that the Arlington development had in the immediate area so as not to allow future varainces and changes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Is a skyline view really a significant percentage of your value? What about the value of your location near downtown, next to a transit line, in a hot district, in a building with amenities, etc. Having growth in an adjacent parcel typically improves property values.

Let's look at it from purely what is drawn. The difference between the 120' maximum, a one-size-fits-all maximum for the whole line, and the 14-15 story building rendered is not a very big difference. I feel like the conversation has evolved to where people are implying that a 200' building is being proposed directly in front of the Arlington windows. In fact, this building is just a ~150' building that is at least 250' away from the Arlington. Such a building, even if built at Carson and the tracks would block much of the current skyline, but this is what people would still see:

- Wachovia Corporate Center - 2nd Tallest building in the city

- Wachovia Condo Tower - 40+ story condo tower

- TWELVE - 30+ story condo/hotel tower

- 440 S Church - 15 story office building

- NASCAR Plaza - 19 story office building

- Brooklyn Village - 16 Story condo tower

- Government District

- The Park - 21 story condo tower

- Courtside - 17 story condo tower

- Trademark - 28 story condo tower

- The Vue - 50 story condo tower

- Duke Headquarters

- Bank of America Stadium

You will also have excellent views of the huge section of UMUD zoned land between Carson and Belk, whatever Novare plans for the Packard Bldg site, whatever happens on all the blocks being sold by the city on Stonewall.

The view that is under construction will be much better than the present view anyway, which is already mostly blocked by the Westin. While the new buildings without the Simpson towers blocking would be great, but the new buildings WITH the tower on the Simpson land would still be better than the current view, PLUS the feeling of being in among the towers. That is a feeling you get with Avenue that is great. You have a tower right there, but also a number of buildings off in the distance from an angle.

http://thepinkbuilding.com/images/ARL_Gall...mage_TopCnr.jpg

I think it would be great if they can work out a solution. But let's face it, the height limit was not meant to preserve anyone's skyline view, it was intended to avoid a gradual adjustment between towers and single family homes. That public policy purpose is preserved (forgive the alliteration) still even if they approve a 200' limit. I will again repeat that all the land between Carson Station and the stadium north of Carson is zoned UMUD with NO height limit. That is adjacent to the land being discussed here. If land is sandwiched between land with a 22 story tower and zoning that allows unlimited height, a modest 80' increase to 200' height limit half a block from a 310' building is very reasonable.

I really sympathize with your plight, 2inthepink. But I really don't think your values will be hurt as much as you think. You get density next door (which helps values), and you retain all the other intrinsic value elements of the place. Skyline views are great, but most of the million dollar homes in Dilworth don't have skyline views either. But the kicker is, you'd still have a skyline view, just one part of it is closer and blocks the BofA crown. But don't tell me that much of the value in your place is contingent on seeing the BofA crown.

Major zoning fights come up when towers encroach on traditional neighborhood developments, when a big industrial or commercial site is planned near single family homes, and so on. It is a very tenuous position to be in fight a short tower next to a taller tower. That'd be a first.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I remember reading an article about all the development off Gold Hill Road in Fort Mill. A woman who had moved there several years ago was quoted as being against all the development springing up because when she moved out there it was so peaceful, they were just surrounded by farm land and didn't have bad traffic to deal with. Now all the new neighborhoods were plowing over the farm land and the traffic was becoming a problem.

What she didn't mention is that she gave the interview on her back porch, in her neighborhood, which sits on land that a farm used to occupy.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites


If they go over 120' they should just through the zoning system out.

Its not worth the paper its written on. (or the disk space its stored on)

As I stated earlier they will have to get Council Approval to go over 120'. Everyone will get their fair chance to make their persuasive arguments in favor or against a height increase. You still have months until this will go before City Council ..if ever.. to get all your ducks in a row and present your best argument.

It has always been the case that the publically elected City Council is the one that has the final say on all zoning in this city. It is not like this is going to be a cake walk for Harris to get this rezoned up to 200'. They are going to have to spend a lot of money and time working with the community and the City Council to make this happen.

And to go back to the use of the word "variance"... The Southhaus was recently rezoned to MUDD-O. The "O" which stands for "Optional" I think is what Harris is referring to as the "Variance". It is more commonly referred to as a conditional plan. It means that the plan varies from the straight up MUDD zoning but is conditional...meaning they have to provide a LOT of detail that a normal rezoning would not require. In your case Harris will most likely seek a TOD-O Rezoning which means they will have to provide a very detailed conditional plan that they will not be allowed to vary from.

Yes this Rezoning would vary from Area Plan...and that will be a "tick" against them in the rezoning case. They will have to prove to the City Council that their planned TOD-O development is better for the community than the current TOD-M.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are not making any more land. You will see more high rise buildings in South End. It will also become a view for people to see. Building high rise close into uptown is better than taking another 100 acres out on the edge of the city to build more low rise projects. South End now becoming an extension of uptown.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SouthHaus

SouthHaus is a mixed use project of offices and condominiums at Ideal Way and South Blvd. Its design is inspired by urban designs in Holland and Germany. The project was originally designed with 200 units, but is rumored to be going through a redesign.

http://southhaus.com/

http://www.charlottecentercity.org/Develop...d/SouthHaus.pdf

Park Avenue Plaza / The Atrium

Park Avenue Plaza is a small project under construction on West Park Avenue west of Camden with 36 condominiums.

http://parkavenuecharlotte.com

http://www.charlottecentercity.org/Develop...venue_plaza.pdf

Silos SouthEnd

Silos SouthEnd is in the New Bern Station area recently absorbed into the SouthEnd district. It is a mixed use project by Citiline on the western extension of Poindexter Drive that will include 113 condos, retail/commercial space.

http://www.silossouthend.com/

As the Chelsea Southend is now an apartment project, it can be discussed with other Southend apartment projects:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/SouthEnd...jec-t45017.html

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

SouthEnd's TOD rules and property values are lending the area to mid-rise, stick built projects, which in this economy appears conducive to apartment building. There are currently five large apartment projects planned for the area around the Light Blue line, and the likelihood that more will follow.

Ashton SouthEnd

Ashton South End is located at 101 West Tremont across the Lynx Blue Line from Atherton Mill. The ~310 apartment project by the Hanover Company includes an 11 story tower and retail that will anchor the southern end of Camden Road. The project is under construction with expectations to be completed in 2009.

http://www.charlottecentercity.org/Develop...est_tremont.pdf

http://oxblue.com/pro/open/?webPath=waynebros/ashton

http://hanoverco.com/sub.asp?p=Portfolio

post-670-1204000286_thumb.jpg

Millenium

Millenium is a project under construction at Bland and South Tryon. 272 apartments are planned on the site, which is adjacent to the Bland Street Lynx Station. The project is expected to be completed this year.

http://www.themillennium.com/fw/main/Home-990.html

http://www.charlottecentercity.org/Develop.../millennium.pdf

post-1289-1204034265_thumb.jpg

Reserve at SouthEnd

Reserve at SouthEnd is a project on South Boulevard across from Lowes SouthEnd. ~300 units are planned for the site by Atlantic Realty. The buildings on the site have been demolished in preparation for construction. It is expected to be completed in Spring of 2009.

http://www.charlottecentercity.org/Develop...e_south_end.pdf

Spectrum

The Morgan Group is developing Spectrum at 2203 Hawkins Street, a site on the west side of the Lynx Blue Line at Hawkins and Rampart. ~330 apartments are planned to be completed in 2009.

http://www.charlottecentercity.org/Develop...nd/spectrum.pdf

post-670-1204000516_thumb.jpg

Circle SouthEnd

Circle at SouthEnd is a controversial project by Crescent (Duke Power) at Bland Street and South Blvd. It was formerly a poorly designed condominium named "C", but has been redesigned as an apartment project with claims that they are pursuing LEED certification. However, there have been no releases of designs to date, despite the project beginning construction.

Former discussion of that site is archived here:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=36221

Chelsea

Chelsea is a 5-story, 75 unit project at West Blvd and Hawkins Street. The project is expected to be completed in 2009. This project was previously a condominium project, but has been converted to an apartment project.

http://www.chelseasouthend.com

http://www.charlottecentercity.org/Develop...End/chelsea.pdf

Tradition at New Bern Station

Tradition at New Bern Station is a 5-story, 285 unit apartment project by Broad Street Partners across the Lynx tracks from 3030 South. (This project is cancelled).

http://www.ncleg.net/documentsites/committ...2018%202007.pdf

post-670-1213291633_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Small scale office projects are being planned for SouthEnd, with Uptown's vacancy rates reaching historic lows.

Merrifield Partners plans two green (LEED certified) office projects using a typical 3 story brick design.

1927 South Tryon

The office project at 1927 S Tryon is located on the corner of Tryon and Doggett streets with ~85ksf under construction, with expectations to be completed in Q3 2008. The project includes some ground floor retail.

1927bldgrenderingweb.jpg

http://www.merrifieldpartners.com/featured...erty/36401.html

230 West Summit

230 W Summit is a ~65ksf office building with ground floor retail that is expected to be completed in Q1 2009.

post-1289-1204034677_thumb.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we are beginning to see the eventual development of Southend into a second skyline for Charlotte. Now that there is a new light rail line running right through the middle of Southend, this area is prime for development.

I would really like to see a cluster of buildings 30, 40, and 50 stories tall built in this area eventually. This area if developed right, will only complement and enhance the uptown area, which is going to spill over 277 anyways as time goes on.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2inthePink does have a point, though, that the area has been studied and all those 30+ towers have been zoned to go a specific place, north of Carson. I think where we disagree is whether a variance in the case of this site and others that are just south of Carson is in order. The density being proposed on this site is actually in better keeping with the plans than others happening nearby in the 3-5 story range like Circle, Millenium, and the Block. The city wants this type of density to creep northward and westward and fill in the gap of [tax revenue] development. There is no doubt that will happen in the next ten years. I do think, though, that it is an oddity of their zones that leads to a dramatic step down at Carson from unlimit height to only 120'.

My hopes would be that Harris will need to do a rezoning to get the density and design he wants, and that through the public comment and negotiation process, he can actually build as tall as he wants, but step down to fit in better with Arlington. We will see how that turns out. In an era right now where new proposals are weak or non-extant, I just hope that the controversy doesn't stall the project in general.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think we are beginning to see the eventual development of Southend into a second skyline for Charlotte. Now that there is a new light rail line running right through the middle of Southend, this area is prime for development.

Most of us have always expected this, and I hope for it. Not specifically on the Simpson's site but generally between South Blvd moving westward over to I-77.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

2inthepink, your going to probably be let down. Our neighbors managed to sidestep the zoning laws and are building a monstrosity. Yeah, we called the zoning office every day to make sure they didnt get a permit. and they did.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've always felt that the area bordered by South Mint St, Bland St, and South Blvd should be ripe for high-rise development. There's an existing street grid and not much in the way of residential to restrict heights. It would be nice to see this area become a true extension of downtown. I don't think this has to be a "second skyline" If you look at it from the air now, it doesn't take much imagination to see the space between Arlington and South Tryon going vertical and filling in. 277 presents a natural barrier, but not one that can't be overcome, especially due to the existing grade of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.