SouthEnd Midrise Projects

[KJHburg]

Southend skyline notice how tall the Lowes tower is compared to the others.  Today.  We need more of the taller variety and some are coming soon. 

[DMann]

Southend = Buckhead Lite?

[Blue_Devil]

On 2/2/2021 at 12:22 PM, MarcoPolo said:

Indeed.   The 2020 pause button (for SouthEnd) will soon be released.     

I am not sure I even understand what this means?

[Prodev]

52 minutes ago, Blue_Devil said:

I am not sure I even understand what this means?

Yeah, there was never a pause in South End.

1 hour ago, DMann said:

Southend = Buckhead Lite?

South end has zero similarities to Buckhead. 

[MarcoPolo]

To clarify, had there been no pandemic, a group of projects that were "making their way" toward announcements this time last year would have broken ground, or been under construction today.   These were "paused",  (one shelved indefinitely, although I've heard some encouraging chatter of late).    Had they not, KJHburg's panorama of SouthEnd from yesterday would have been dotted with cranes.  

Ongoing  construction activity in SouthEnd this past year involves projects that broke ground pre-pandemic, including Portman's project.   Only one, Vantage's second building, kicked off during the pandemic year.   

The "pause" is about to end as these projects are now gearing up to resume.  

A few short years from now, if KJHburg takes another photo, there will be buildings of the "taller variety" visible in his shot.  

[KJHburg]

If we are comparing things to Atlanta which we probably should not, Southend is more like Midtown outside the traditional downtown but adjacent.  However Midtown is much more dense and almost everything is a high rise.   Southpark is more like Buckhead with a large mall as an anchor.  

Southend will continue to develop residential and office high rises but there will be townhomes, 1-2 story buildings and 4-5 story mid rise apartment complexes in the mix for a long time.  

Only closest to the LYNX line can you build the tallest buildings.  

and don't worry I will be around to take photos of the South End skyline in the future.  

[j-man]

5 hours ago, DMann said:

Southend = Buckhead Lite?

SouthPark maybe but not SouthEnd if you’re comparing the two parts of CLT and ATL.

[DownEast]

^^I was thinking Atlanta with you're longer spread KJ. Uptown is Midtown.  N. Tryon is Downtown and Lowe's tower area is Buckhead. Just matching the sizes+linear layout of the skylines. 

[RANYC]

Would you all say we're evolving toward being an urban improvement over what Atlanta has become (not saying Atlanta is bad, but are we growing in a way that leverages lessons learned)?

[DMann]

Yikes, sorry I started this!!!

 

[JRCLT]

On the topic of Atlanta. It’s interesting to think that it’s Metro Area is over ~6 million but thinking about NC’s Piedmont Crescent (Charlotte-Greensboro-Raleigh) which is an area similar to Atlanta’s metro Area and has just about the same population. The only difference is that Atlanta is a radial versus the Piedmont Crescent being a curve. Though in terms of connection the curve would make more efficient transportation since the cities can be connected in a line versus radially which is much harder to serve wide swaths of area. I think NC rail has a good opportunity in terms of mass transit considering these cities could be more effectively connected to allow for shorter travel times could create an urban crescent that could rival a lot of other economic areas. Just a half baked thought I had at 3 am.

[jthomas]

4 hours ago, JeanClt said:

On the topic of Atlanta. It’s interesting to think that it’s Metro Area is over ~6 million but thinking about NC’s Piedmont Crescent (Charlotte-Greensboro-Raleigh) which is an area similar to Atlanta’s metro Area and has just about the same population. The only difference is that Atlanta is a radial versus the Piedmont Crescent being a curve. Though in terms of connection the curve would make more efficient transportation since the cities can be connected in a line versus radially which is much harder to serve wide swaths of area. I think NC rail has a good opportunity in terms of mass transit considering these cities could be more effectively connected to allow for shorter travel times could create an urban crescent that could rival a lot of other economic areas. Just a half baked thought I had at 3 am.

I think you are absolutely right. In my fantasy world, NC builds a true high-speed line connecting Raleigh, Greensboro, and Charlotte that would have an end-to-end run time of 1:30-1:45. Hourly express service (with the potential to extend north to DC or south to Atlanta), plus hourly or better service to intermediate stops on the existing NCRR line. It would be a game changer for NC to create, as you say, effectively one 6M+ metro area rather than three 1.5-2M metros. Not only are the three metros in a pretty clean line (well, arc), but many of the key destinations within the regions are directly adjacent to the line (universities, hospitals, research parks, sports/entertainment destinations, CLT and RDU airports, etc.).

And I don't think this idea is as far-fetched as it seems on first glance. Travel demand will only continue to grow on the 40/85 corridor, and the only plausible alternatives are another round of mega-widening on the interstates, or perhaps a new freeway following the 49/64 route. I would think the costs of each option would not be that far off, plus rail could likely move more people (the goal of transportation, right?) without all of the negative externalities of massive freeways and auto-dependence. And while I think the project would be compelling enough for NC to do on its own if necessary, it would be a key piece of an Atlantic seaboard HSR line, and would likely be attractive to a rail-friendly federal government.

[turbocraig]

I’m not sure if this is news, or if it’s old news and I just don’t remember, but I was at WorldStone at Dunavant and Distribution St yesterday and they told me they are moving in a matter of weeks to the West side because their property had been sold.  There are plans for a specialty type hotel and higher end restaurant (that’s how it was phrased to me) for that site.  I’m not sure if any of the neighboring businesses are also part of that, because the WorldStone site itself doesn’t seem that large to me.  If this is yesterday’s news, can someone refresh me on what this is gonna be again?

[AP3]

9 minutes ago, turbocraig said:

I’m not sure if this is news, or if it’s old news and I just don’t remember, but I was at WorldStone at Dunavant and Distribution St yesterday and they told me they are moving in a matter of weeks to the West side because their property had been sold.  There are plans for a specialty type hotel and higher end restaurant (that’s how it was phrased to me) for that site.  I’m not sure if any of the neighboring businesses are also part of that, because the WorldStone site itself doesn’t seem that large to me.  If this is yesterday’s news, can someone refresh me on what this is gonna be again?

Can't find anything in Accela for the site or adjacent parcels.

[kermit]

You guys have hit on my favorite plan for improving  NC's future prospects. Making the Charlotte-Greensboro (plus Winston)-Raleigh corridor into a single labor market using rail would make the urban crescent globally competitive for attracting talent and knowledge industries. It is also an opportunity to reduce carbon outputs and to create more sustainable cities.

The 2009 ARRA grant built the Charlotte-Greensboro tracks up to 110mph top speed specs (NCDOT has decided not to pay to maintain them at that speed level so 89mph is the best we get currently). This would make travel time between CLT-Gboro under an hour and Gboro-Raleigh less than 50 minutes (tracks east of Greensboro would still need substantial upgrades). These travel times would make daily commutes between Greensboro and the two endpoints totally doable (and a good bit shorter than many rail commuters accept in NYC, Boston, Chicago and DC)

In terms of Gross Metropolitan Product, a unified NC Crescent (all the metro areas between Charlotte and Raleigh) would produce $419 billion worth of stuff annually. This would rank us as the 12th largest metro economy, just behind Atlanta and just ahead of Miami. [Charlotte is currently the 21st largest metro economy ($178 billion per year)]

More importantly, yolking these metro's together with high-frequency passenger rail service would:

• Improve economies in the in between areas (including Greensboro) thanks to some workers in Charlotte and the Triangle seeking out smaller town living along the rail
• Lower the cost of living for many without increasing carbon outputs.
• Allow for more interaction between the arts and design communities in the Triad with the R&D and manufacturing communities of Charlotte and Raleigh.
• Create better connections between the Triangles R&D and Charlotte's finance
• Connect Charlotte's new medical school with medical research clusters in Winston and the Triangle (Winston rail connector would need improvements)

Without some type of improvement like this, NC's cities are going to choke on traffic, be shunned by the global talent pool (most won't know we exist), and get weighted down by low-wage manufacturing jobs.

Charlotte to Raleigh is a bit too far for robust daily commute flows (even by 110mph rail) but daily commuting from Greensboro to either endpoint is totally feasible. It would look a great deal like the urban system in Switzerland (lots of rail commuting from Zurich (finance) to Basel (R&D) and Basel to Geneva (Service / Global hub). This commuting is done at sub-110mph speeds (Switzerland does not have HSR).  Our equivalent rail network is already half built, all we gotta do is make a few remaining improvements to make it to happen.

/rant/

 

 

Edited February 5, 2021 by kermit

[carolina1792]

9 hours ago, kermit said:

You guys have hit on my favorite plan for improving  NC's future prospects. Making the Charlotte-Greensboro (plus Winston)-Raleigh corridor into a single labor market using rail would make the urban crescent globally competitive for attracting talent and knowledge industries. It is also an opportunity to reduce carbon outputs and to create more sustainable cities.

The 2009 ARRA grant built the Charlotte-Greensboro tracks up to 110mph top speed specs (NCDOT has decided not to pay to maintain them at that speed level so 89mph is the best we get currently). This would make travel time between CLT-Gboro under an hour and Gboro-Raleigh less than 50 minutes (tracks east of Greensboro would still need substantial upgrades). These travel times would make daily commutes between Greensboro and the two endpoints totally doable (and a good bit shorter than many rail commuters accept in NYC, Boston, Chicago and DC)

In terms of Gross Metropolitan Product, a unified NC Crescent (all the metro areas between Charlotte and Raleigh) would produce $419 billion worth of stuff annually. This would rank us as the 12th largest metro economy, just behind Atlanta and just ahead of Miami. [Charlotte is currently the 21st largest metro economy ($178 billion per year)]

More importantly, yolking these metro's together with high-frequency passenger rail service would:

• Improve economies in the in between areas (including Greensboro) thanks to some workers in Charlotte and the Triangle seeking out smaller town living along the rail
• Lower the cost of living for many without increasing carbon outputs.
• Allow for more interaction between the arts and design communities in the Triad with the R&D and manufacturing communities of Charlotte and Raleigh.
• Create better connections between the Triangles R&D and Charlotte's finance
• Connect Charlotte's new medical school with medical research clusters in Winston and the Triangle (Winston rail connector would need improvements)

Without some type of improvement like this, NC's cities are going to choke on traffic, be shunned by the global talent pool (most won't know we exist), and get weighted down by low-wage manufacturing jobs.

Charlotte to Raleigh is a bit too far for robust daily commute flows (even by 110mph rail) but daily commuting from Greensboro to either endpoint is totally feasible. It would look a great deal like the urban system in Switzerland (lots of rail commuting from Zurich (finance) to Basel (R&D) and Basel to Geneva (Service / Global hub). This commuting is done at sub-110mph speeds (Switzerland does not have HSR).  Our equivalent rail network is already half built, all we gotta do is make a few remaining improvements to make it to happen.

/rant/

 

 

Switzerland felt much bigger than that when I visited. Haha

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 2/5/2021 at 11:36 AM, kermit said:

You guys have hit on my favorite plan for improving  NC's future prospects. Making the Charlotte-Greensboro (plus Winston)-Raleigh corridor into a single labor market using rail would make the urban crescent globally competitive for attracting talent and knowledge industries. It is also an opportunity to reduce carbon outputs and to create more sustainable cities.

The 2009 ARRA grant built the Charlotte-Greensboro tracks up to 110mph top speed specs (NCDOT has decided not to pay to maintain them at that speed level so 89mph is the best we get currently). This would make travel time between CLT-Gboro under an hour and Gboro-Raleigh less than 50 minutes (tracks east of Greensboro would still need substantial upgrades). These travel times would make daily commutes between Greensboro and the two endpoints totally doable (and a good bit shorter than many rail commuters accept in NYC, Boston, Chicago and DC)

In terms of Gross Metropolitan Product, a unified NC Crescent (all the metro areas between Charlotte and Raleigh) would produce $419 billion worth of stuff annually. This would rank us as the 12th largest metro economy, just behind Atlanta and just ahead of Miami. [Charlotte is currently the 21st largest metro economy ($178 billion per year)]

More importantly, yolking these metro's together with high-frequency passenger rail service would:

• Improve economies in the in between areas (including Greensboro) thanks to some workers in Charlotte and the Triangle seeking out smaller town living along the rail
• Lower the cost of living for many without increasing carbon outputs.
• Allow for more interaction between the arts and design communities in the Triad with the R&D and manufacturing communities of Charlotte and Raleigh.
• Create better connections between the Triangles R&D and Charlotte's finance
• Connect Charlotte's new medical school with medical research clusters in Winston and the Triangle (Winston rail connector would need improvements)

Without some type of improvement like this, NC's cities are going to choke on traffic, be shunned by the global talent pool (most won't know we exist), and get weighted down by low-wage manufacturing jobs.

Charlotte to Raleigh is a bit too far for robust daily commute flows (even by 110mph rail) but daily commuting from Greensboro to either endpoint is totally feasible. It would look a great deal like the urban system in Switzerland (lots of rail commuting from Zurich (finance) to Basel (R&D) and Basel to Geneva (Service / Global hub). This commuting is done at sub-110mph speeds (Switzerland does not have HSR).  Our equivalent rail network is already half built, all we gotta do is make a few remaining improvements to make it to happen.

/rant/

 

 

You and me both -- this has been my vision for NC for the last 30 years.    

I'd add...one of the best things about NC is the diversity of landscapes and climates -- easily unmatched in Eastern North America.  But, our two tourism centers in the East and the West are too far for the average tourist to experience in a trip now.  Imagine high speed rail at RDU and CLT travelling the crescent and including Asheville and Wilmington.  Tourists from around the world could fly into CLT (or RDU) visit these cities or head directly to Wilmington or Asheville, rent a car, travel around and then get a train and be at the other end of the state in a few hours.  

[Richhamleigh, DC]

On 2/5/2021 at 3:43 AM, JeanClt said:

On the topic of Atlanta. It’s interesting to think that it’s Metro Area is over ~6 million but thinking about NC’s Piedmont Crescent (Charlotte-Greensboro-Raleigh) which is an area similar to Atlanta’s metro Area and has just about the same population. The only difference is that Atlanta is a radial versus the Piedmont Crescent being a curve. Though in terms of connection the curve would make more efficient transportation since the cities can be connected in a line versus radially which is much harder to serve wide swaths of area. I think NC rail has a good opportunity in terms of mass transit considering these cities could be more effectively connected to allow for shorter travel times could create an urban crescent that could rival a lot of other economic areas. Just a half baked thought I had at 3 am.

 

On 2/5/2021 at 8:38 AM, jthomas said:

I think you are absolutely right. In my fantasy world, NC builds a true high-speed line connecting Raleigh, Greensboro, and Charlotte that would have an end-to-end run time of 1:30-1:45. Hourly express service (with the potential to extend north to DC or south to Atlanta), plus hourly or better service to intermediate stops on the existing NCRR line. It would be a game changer for NC to create, as you say, effectively one 6M+ metro area rather than three 1.5-2M metros. Not only are the three metros in a pretty clean line (well, arc), but many of the key destinations within the regions are directly adjacent to the line (universities, hospitals, research parks, sports/entertainment destinations, CLT and RDU airports, etc.).

And I don't think this idea is as far-fetched as it seems on first glance. Travel demand will only continue to grow on the 40/85 corridor, and the only plausible alternatives are another round of mega-widening on the interstates, or perhaps a new freeway following the 49/64 route. I would think the costs of each option would not be that far off, plus rail could likely move more people (the goal of transportation, right?) without all of the negative externalities of massive freeways and auto-dependence. And while I think the project would be compelling enough for NC to do on its own if necessary, it would be a key piece of an Atlantic seaboard HSR line, and would likely be attractive to a rail-friendly federal government.

It's interesting but the Atlanta, GA "metro" geographic area is massive -- almost 10,000 square miles or twice the size of Connecticut.  The NC Crescent is a bit larger but not by much.  You are absolutely correct -- what we need is a transportation alternative that carries people -- business folk, students, tourists between our cities (and with spurs to some of the biggest tourism destinations in the country).  

We are competing with not just other countries but other states.  A high speed rail system with the state's remarkable diversity of cities, landscapes and climates would be impossible to beat at least in the eastern US.  

How did this conversation make it here?????

On 2/4/2021 at 3:48 PM, RANYC said:

Would you all say we're evolving toward being an urban improvement over what Atlanta has become (not saying Atlanta is bad, but are we growing in a way that leverages lessons learned)?

Absolutely.  Even Georgians will admit this.  Charlotte is setting an example for the US -- it hardly get any props though, which is partly a failing of North Carolina in general.  Unlike our neighbors we aren't bloviators.  A valley of humility between two mountains of conceit...  Charlotte rocks. 

[jthomas]

On 2/5/2021 at 11:36 AM, kermit said:

You guys have hit on my favorite plan for improving  NC's future prospects. Making the Charlotte-Greensboro (plus Winston)-Raleigh corridor into a single labor market using rail would make the urban crescent globally competitive for attracting talent and knowledge industries. It is also an opportunity to reduce carbon outputs and to create more sustainable cities.

The 2009 ARRA grant built the Charlotte-Greensboro tracks up to 110mph top speed specs (NCDOT has decided not to pay to maintain them at that speed level so 89mph is the best we get currently). This would make travel time between CLT-Gboro under an hour and Gboro-Raleigh less than 50 minutes (tracks east of Greensboro would still need substantial upgrades). These travel times would make daily commutes between Greensboro and the two endpoints totally doable (and a good bit shorter than many rail commuters accept in NYC, Boston, Chicago and DC)

In terms of Gross Metropolitan Product, a unified NC Crescent (all the metro areas between Charlotte and Raleigh) would produce $419 billion worth of stuff annually. This would rank us as the 12th largest metro economy, just behind Atlanta and just ahead of Miami. [Charlotte is currently the 21st largest metro economy ($178 billion per year)]

More importantly, yolking these metro's together with high-frequency passenger rail service would:

• Improve economies in the in between areas (including Greensboro) thanks to some workers in Charlotte and the Triangle seeking out smaller town living along the rail
• Lower the cost of living for many without increasing carbon outputs.
• Allow for more interaction between the arts and design communities in the Triad with the R&D and manufacturing communities of Charlotte and Raleigh.
• Create better connections between the Triangles R&D and Charlotte's finance
• Connect Charlotte's new medical school with medical research clusters in Winston and the Triangle (Winston rail connector would need improvements)

Without some type of improvement like this, NC's cities are going to choke on traffic, be shunned by the global talent pool (most won't know we exist), and get weighted down by low-wage manufacturing jobs.

Charlotte to Raleigh is a bit too far for robust daily commute flows (even by 110mph rail) but daily commuting from Greensboro to either endpoint is totally feasible. It would look a great deal like the urban system in Switzerland (lots of rail commuting from Zurich (finance) to Basel (R&D) and Basel to Geneva (Service / Global hub). This commuting is done at sub-110mph speeds (Switzerland does not have HSR).  Our equivalent rail network is already half built, all we gotta do is make a few remaining improvements to make it to happen.

/rant/

 

 

 

15 hours ago, Phillydog said:

You and me both -- this has been my vision for NC for the last 30 years.    

I'd add...one of the best things about NC is the diversity of landscapes and climates -- easily unmatched in Eastern North America.  But, our two tourism centers in the East and the West are too far for the average tourist to experience in a trip now.  Imagine high speed rail at RDU and CLT travelling the crescent and including Asheville and Wilmington.  Tourists from around the world could fly into CLT (or RDU) visit these cities or head directly to Wilmington or Asheville, rent a car, travel around and then get a train and be at the other end of the state in a few hours.  

I posted a response in the NC Intercity Rail thread so this one can get back on topic...

[atl2clt]

17 hours ago, Phillydog said:

Absolutely.  Even Georgians will admit this.  Charlotte is setting an example for the US -- it hardly get any props though, which is partly a failing of North Carolina in general.  Unlike our neighbors we aren't bloviators.  A valley of humility between two mountains of conceit...  Charlotte rocks. 

Former ATLien here. (Also, this is my first post on UP after lurking for more than a year). 

I lived in Atlanta my entire life. I spent the past 3 years living in both Midtown and along the Beltline in Inman Park—two of the most walkable areas in Atlanta. In November 2020, I moved to Charlotte for work. I can confidently say that Charlotte's urban footprint outpaces that of Atlanta. I currently live in South End, and this is the first time in my life that I can walk to the grocery store. Now that I'm working from home, I don't even touch my car from Monday through Friday. Everything can be done on foot. 

The entire pedestrian pedestrian experience along Camden, the CLT Rail Trail, and the entire Tryon corridor is one of the coolest cityscapes in the Southeast. There is already so much density/walkability, and the best part is that this existing infrastructure will only lead to increased density and pedestrian activity.

Atlanta, on the other hand, is so geographically enormous that it hinders the pedestrian experience. Atlanta effectively has three different skylines that are disconnected from one another: Buckhead, Midtown, and Downtown. Of those three areas of town, Midtown is the only one that is truly invested in creating a sense of place for pedestrians. Still, skyscrapers/developments in Midtown often feel geographically isolated from other buildings. Take for instance BofA Plaza, the tallest building in Atlanta; it basically stands on a little island by itself. In a picture of the ATL skyline, BofA Plaza looks so lonely and out of place. My understanding is that this development is actually used as a case study in poor urban design. It has a HUGE underground parking garage and was designed specifically with the idea that suburban office workers would show up to work, put in their hours, and then drive back home—all without interacting the area outside of the tower. 

Charlotte, on the other hand, is creating something special. The Uptown skyline looks so much more imposing and dense than Atlanta's, mostly because its developments are built right on top of one another to create that cool "concrete jungle" vibe. The fact that the CLT Light Rail runs through the middle of the city is the single largest factor for promoting growth and urbanism into the future. Compared to MARTA, which was built in the 1970s and 1980s with a suburban commuter mindset, the CLT Light Rail is leaps and bounds more accessible. 

I am so excited to call this city my new home. So much urban potential. 

Edited February 8, 2021 by atl2clt

[hinsp0]

Looking into Southend today.

Same, but along the blue line.

[KJHburg]

Miscellaneous new townhomes and developments in Southend and a familiar new high rise. Today. 

[AP3]

Stumbled upon this approval in Accela.   This is a part of Marsh Properties' Sedgefield development (adjacent to the Waterman/HT).  This was the strip center that had Ann Dao market in it.

 

[KJHburg]

southend skyline from uptown today. I see a Portman tower popping up. 

[Norm2]

2 hours ago, AP3 said:

Stumbled upon this approval in Accela.   This is a part of Marsh Properties' Sedgefield development (adjacent to the Waterman/HT).  This was the strip center that had Ann Dao market in it.

 

I am hoping that more development like this will be built on the East side of South Blvd.