SouthEnd Midrise Projects

[j-man]

1 hour ago, SouthEndCLT811 said:

Yep! KJHburg shared in the Scaleybark thread

http://www.akridge.com/property/152/3441SouthBoulevard#description

Thanks. Had no idea about this one 

21 hours ago, dylansukkert said:

Old Off Broadway building is coming down as I type. 

Yup. Sure is. 

[Blue_Devil]

10 minutes ago, j-man said:

Thanks. Had no idea about this one 

Yup. Sure is. 

Its crazy how fast they are all popping up. Between SouthEnd, LoSo, and Morehead, there might be 10,000 new apartment units in the next 5 years. Maybe more. All centered around the idea of a walking and transit path. The amount of Restaurants and retail that will pop up because of this will make current SouthEnd look very small. 

 

That many new people will cause traffic issues for sure, but because of where it is centered a lot of traffic will be mitigated, especially if Blueline frequency goes up and the rail trail is finally completed on both sides. SouthEnd will start bring National recognition to Charlotte in many ways. 

[cltheel.sdl]

One thing we need to be cautious about is preventing a degradation of South End's character.  The destruction of old buildings along with the construction of too many out-of-character buildings will ruin what makes South End currently special.  I hope developers will be design-conscious in their approach to redeveloping parcels...but some of the recent proposals give me little hope.

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, cltheel.sdl said:

One thing we need to be cautious about is preventing a degradation of South End's character.  The destruction of old buildings along with the construction of too many out-of-character buildings will ruin what makes South End currently special.  I hope developers will be design-conscious in their approach to redeveloping parcels...but some of the recent proposals give me little hope.

I lived in South End for the first 2 years I was in Charlotte (the Ashton).  I enjoyed the convenience to Light Rail and Rail Trail for my commute into Uptown, and liked that it was growing in relative density.  Beyond that, I didn't really see much definable character worth preserving.  Coming from NYC, I sort of perceived South End as largely a blank slate in the shadow of Charlotte's downtown CBD.  The rest of South End appeared to me to be lots of unremarkable, plain, un-nuanced, late-century warehouse buildings without much in the way of pedestrian-orientation or placement.  I've always wondered, if South End had a Design Committee to protect the "character" of the neighborhood, how would that "character" be defined and described in that Committee's charter?  There's no defining natural landmark, no kind of central park or urban piazza/plaza, no historical architecture.  Curious to get others' opinions on this.  

Edited December 29, 2021 by RANYC

[JRCLT]

… What makes something more special than something that grows organically. Now i agree that it shouldn’t grow out of control and erase everything, but honestly this talk of character in a place doesn’t make much sense. For example, in terms of this project specifically…its a set back store surrounded by a parking lot… idk what kind of character that spells for everyone else but that just screams cars are more important than people to me.

People are what create a character for the places where they live, work, and play not the structures alone. South end is a relatively younger neighborhood and its growing. Change is inevitable and character is still developing, a work-in-progess. There are certain places where buildings do not have to be bulldozed to be successful, especially with pedestrian focused activity (design center is a great example of this).

A place usually loses its character more often when the people who live there leave or are expunged not when old buildings and grass patches are redeveloped.

Edit: RANYC beat me to it, I saw your response right after posting.

[Blue_Devil]

In all honesty, the Character SouthEnd has is, it is new and fun and modern. Old poorly maintained warehouses do not make character. Housing projects on the verge of being closed by the Federal Gov do not make character. These are things that should be destroyed and rebuilt upon. 

[15895]

Then in theory, based on the last few posts, Uptown & SouthEnd have the same amount of character.

I agree with the other poster. An uncomfortable amount of SouthEnd is being replaced when it should be rehabbed or repurposed. I could live with Dimensional Place having gone somewhere else, for example. OR having preserved at least the façade of what it replaced.
 

The above replacing the below is just annoying. Especially that giant empty concrete plaza… that used to have buildings. 

These buildings can be saved or incorporated or something. And there’s plenty of places - so many places - I have 0 problem with the new development. And SouthEnd has had some good developments for ground level. 

But the city needs to protect these places. Some of the developments such as Rail Yard SouthEnd has really added to SouthEnd and it’s design and pedestrian streetscrape conform to the SouthEnd character. If we could have more Rail Yard type developments and keep at least the facades or do the best to preserve older structures. SouthEnd would be even better IMO. 

Even The empty field was better than  Dimensional Place (which I assume they’ll be retail there soon but still. Bleh) 

https://patrickschneider.photoshelter.com/image/I0000APhYvqxZt44

And just to be sure. I am very pro-development. I just think the ground level experience matters. A concrete plaza. F that. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[RANYC]

42 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Then in theory, based on the last few posts, Uptown & SouthEnd have the same amount of character.

I agree with the other poster. An uncomfortable amount of SouthEnd is being replaced when it should be rehabbed or repurposed. I could live with Dimensional Place having gone somewhere else, for example. OR having preserved at least the façade of what it replaced.
 

The above replacing the below is just annoying. Especially that giant empty concrete plaza… that used to have buildings. 

These buildings can be saved or incorporated or something. And there’s plenty of places - so many places - I have 0 problem with the new development. And SouthEnd has had some good developments for ground level. 

But the city needs to protect these places. Some of the developments such as Rail Yard SouthEnd has really added to SouthEnd and it’s design and pedestrian streetscrape conform to the SouthEnd character. If we could have more Rail Yard type developments and keep at least the facades or do the best to preserve older structures. SouthEnd would be even better IMO. 

The empty field was better than  Dimensional Place even (which I assume they’ll be retail there soon but still. Bleh) 

https://patrickschneider.photoshelter.com/image/I0000APhYvqxZt44

Shall we keep the facade of Price’s chicken?

At any rate, Dimensional Fund Advisers brought hundreds of well-paid finance professionals to patronize, by foot even, South End’s growing food and now incubator retail scene (nod to Winnifred shops).  Dimensional was already well underway when I arrived in Charlotte so can’t really speak to what the lot that was there was contributing.

Not sure what’s meant by “same amount of character or how one measures,” but South End has a decidedly different vibe or mood than Uptown in my opinion, but not because of any government intervention or intentionality.  By the way, my opinion is informed by living in SE from 2018-2020, and now living 1.5 miles away in Wesley Heights now, frequenting SE watering holes and sushi, plus working in Uptown.

Agree on ground-level activation, although simply mandating ground-level retail for every structure in south end is a bit glib and might be a bit unrefined.  I don’t even see ground-level retail everywhere in the center of Munich or Berlin or London, but pedestrian accommodations always feel comfortable, secure, pleasant for walking and strolling and to linger nearly everywhere I tread in those cities.

If you don’t have ground-level retail, but include wide sidewalks with streetscape art/sculpture, tree cover, lush and well-maintained gardens, protective structures for pedestrians like pergolas, then you’re fine in my book.

 

Edited December 29, 2021 by RANYC

[15895]

1 hour ago, RANYC said:

Shall we keep the facade of Price’s chicken?

At any rate, Dimensional Fund Advisers brought hundreds of well-paid finance professionals to patronize, by foot even, South End’s growing food and now incubator retail scene (nod to Winnifred shops).  Dimensional was already well underway when I arrived in Charlotte so can’t really speak to what the lot that was there was contributing.

Not sure what’s meant by “same amount of character or how one measures,” but South End has a decidedly different vibe or mood than Uptown in my opinion, but not because of any government intervention or intentionality.  By the way, my opinion is informed by living in SE from 2018-2020, and now living 1.5 miles away in Wesley Heights now, frequenting SE watering holes and sushi, plus working in Uptown.

Agree on ground-level activation, although simply mandating ground-level retail for every structure in south end is a bit glib and might be a bit unrefined.  I don’t even see ground-level retail everywhere in the center of Munich or Berlin or London, but pedestrian accommodations always feel comfortable, secure, pleasant for walking and strolling and to linger nearly everywhere I tread in those cities.

If you don’t have ground-level retail, but include wide sidewalks with streetscape art/sculpture, tree cover, lush and well-maintained gardens, protective structures for pedestrians like pergolas, then you’re fine in my book.

 

That is getting very tiresome to hear (the jobs excuse & over many years) - particularly in a city that has tons of parking lots and old strip malls and literally even random fields in its downtown. Durham and Raleigh both actually do a good job preserving buildings or at least facades. Maybe Dimensional would've chose another city if they couldn't get this space and the best outcome for the city was to let them build there - that doesn't make it good for the urban fabric. 

I enjoyed the area a lot before Dimensional (and when there was a Phat Burrito instead of Flower Child : p ). But at least the parking garage portion is somewhat alright). 

And Prices Chicken Coop, at this point, sure. Save the building and build around it (though this would've been lower on my list of what to save that's has or may have been torn down recently). is it the best looking building? No and I hate that Prices Chicken Coop sign personally and I hate the word coop. Ideally, in my little sim city, I'd want to save it, turn it into a different bar or something and have the rest of the parking lot developed... 

Legacy Union brought tons of jobs - great jobs - beautiful towers, good streetscape, etc. but it just isn't done right IMO and it could have been. SouthEnd provides numerous examples of developments done right. Cities around the US do it right often. Charlotte - it just can't escape the lure of building plaza's and dazzling lobby's that feel blank and well landscaped. BUT at least Legacy Union replaced the old Charlotte Observer building... Which is acceptable. Could've been done better but a net positive for the area at least....

But hey. If ya'll are satisfied with Legacy Union's, by all means enjoy.

Edited December 29, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[RANYC]

14 minutes ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

That is getting very tiresome to hear (the jobs excuse & over many years) - particularly in a city that has tons of parking lots and old strip malls and literally even random fields in its downtown. Durham and Raleigh both actually do a good job preserving buildings or at least facades. Maybe Dimensional would've chose another city if they couldn't get this space and the best outcome for the city was to let them build there - that doesn't make it good for the urban fabric. 

I enjoyed the area a lot before Dimensional (and when there was a Phat Burrito instead of Flower Child : p ). But at least the parking garage portion is somewhat alright). 

And Prices Chicken Coop, at this point, sure. Save the building and build around it (though this would've been lower on my list of what to save that's has or may have been torn down recently). is it the best looking building? No and I hate that Prices Chicken Coop sign personally and I hate the word coop. Ideally, in my little sim city, I'd want to save it, turn it into a different bar or something and have the rest of the parking lot developed... 

Legacy Union brought tons of jobs - great jobs - beautiful towers, good streetscape, etc. but it just isn't done right IMO and it could have been. SouthEnd provides numerous examples of developments done right. Cities around the US do it right often. Charlotte - it just can't escape the lure of building plaza's and dazzling lobby's that feel blank and well landscaped. BUT at least Legacy Union replaced the old Charlotte Observer building... Which is acceptable. Could've been done better but a net positive for the area at least....

But hey. If ya'll are satisfied with Legacy Union's, by all means enjoy.

Sorry that "center city job growth as driving other high-priority outcomes" sounds "tiresome" to you, but as someone (me!) who lives and owns in center city Charlotte, I will advocate and vote on this all day long.  On well-rounded urban core energy (jobs, young professionals in a concentrated area, rail accessibility to urban job centers), I'd say Charlotte is crushing it on a relative basis, and we're unrivaled in the Carolinas region for attracting a substantial portion of job growth and new construction to accommodate such growth right in our urban core (inclusive of Uptown, South End, Midtown, etc) versus in flar-flung sprawling office parks accessible only by car.  Do you live in or frequent South End?  

As for tons of parking lots and fields, I'm not sure what you're referring to.  If it's 1st ward, however, well I'm happy for you that you live in a city that doesn't have property owners who have their own intentions for land they own that you disagree with.  But I think we've done well working around Levine's inaction.

Edited December 29, 2021 by RANYC

[RANYC]

1 hour ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

Then in theory, based on the last few posts, Uptown & SouthEnd have the same amount of character.

I agree with the other poster. An uncomfortable amount of SouthEnd is being replaced when it should be rehabbed or repurposed. I could live with Dimensional Place having gone somewhere else, for example. OR having preserved at least the façade of what it replaced.
 

The above replacing the below is just annoying. Especially that giant empty concrete plaza… that used to have buildings. 

These buildings can be saved or incorporated or something. And there’s plenty of places - so many places - I have 0 problem with the new development. And SouthEnd has had some good developments for ground level. 

But the city needs to protect these places. Some of the developments such as Rail Yard SouthEnd has really added to SouthEnd and it’s design and pedestrian streetscrape conform to the SouthEnd character. If we could have more Rail Yard type developments and keep at least the facades or do the best to preserve older structures. SouthEnd would be even better IMO. 

Even The empty field was better than  Dimensional Place (which I assume they’ll be retail there soon but still. Bleh) 

https://patrickschneider.photoshelter.com/image/I0000APhYvqxZt44

And just to be sure. I am very pro-development. I just think the ground level experience matters. A concrete plaza. F that. 

In your last photo, I see a dirt patch by a surface parking lot and a billboard.  Yes, cheeky for you to show us a pic when crowds are there for some sort of food truck fest, but something tells me that on most days, this wasn't really activated.  Dimensional came online just before Covid hit, but if i'm not mistaken, it has leased all of its street-level retail that is being built out into Q1 of next year.  

Dimensional is a "dirt-patch, surface lot replacement" success story.  And south end got an urban classic, wedge-shaped bit of architecture out of it as well.

Edited December 29, 2021 by RANYC

[carolina1792]

2 hours ago, AirNostrumMAD said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

For a moment I thought this was West Martin Street in Raleigh. It will also be redeveloped into a 20-story tower but will save the historic brick buildings in the front to make an urban courtyard. 

 

 

[15895]

54 minutes ago, RANYC said:

Sorry that "center city job growth as driving other high-priority outcomes" sounds "tiresome" to you, but as someone (me!) who lives and owns in center city Charlotte, I will advocate and vote on this all day long.  On well-rounded urban core energy (jobs, young professionals in a concentrated area, rail accessibility to urban job centers), I'd say Charlotte is crushing it on a relative basis, and we're unrivaled in the Carolinas region for attracting a substantial portion of job growth and new construction to accommodate such growth right in our urban core (inclusive of Uptown, South End, Midtown, etc) versus in flar-flung sprawling office parks accessible only by car.  Do you live in or frequent South End?  

As for tons of parking lots and fields, I'm not sure what you're referring to.  If it's 1st ward, however, well I'm happy for you that you live in a city that doesn't have property owners who have their own intentions for land they own that you disagree with.  But I think we've done well working around Levine's inaction.

I hate my response to be I was born (Presbyterian - ‘92) & raised in Charlotte as I’m sure many people who were also born in CLT may have entirely different opinions than me. But imma do it. I was born & raised in CLT.

Im talkin Gus the Bus level Charlottean. But yes, I lived in SouthEnd (and Catalyst and pretty much anywhere and everywhere in the city south of 85. ). So I was for well rounded jobs etc before you - I just don’t think it has to be an either/or situation as if one can’t have good jobs and good urban development. Which SouthEnd has good examples of development. Rail Yard & Lowes being my favorite so far. 

*if* Dimensional could’ve maybe saved those buildings at the corner of Camden/Tryon rather than replace it with a Plaza and a lobby… it would’ve been a 10/10 in my book. 

Edited December 29, 2021 by AirNostrumMAD

[KJHburg]

I love Southend.  It is a mix of older historical buildings like the old Nebel Mill aka Design Center and Toolworks building with mid rises and now even high rises.  Sure have some things changed but this was a down and out seedy shady industrial area after its prime only 30 years ago.  I think it looks remarkable now.  I guess I love where I live (not in Southend either) in this region.  I can't think  of this magical place that is so much better than Charlotte.  Looks better, is located better, costs better than Charlotte.   I have said it before people vote with their feet and people are flocking here to this city, this region and even to Southend.    My Southend montage of photos.  I only wish when I was the apartment living phase of my life there would have been a Southend in Charlotte because there was not. 

[metropolitan]

I second you KHJ. I’ve lived in Charlotte for over 20 years now and I think we need to recognize South end for what it was - rundown, industrial, devoid of activity and sketchy at night, with a few small interesting oases such as common market. That CM where Dimensional now sits, was really a hidden gem that most people were unaware of. It has not been replicated, but what is going on in South end now is exponentially more than what would’ve been going on if the area had not been redeveloped.  This area has so much incredible potential. Who’s to say that more unique niches will not be created. I think Lost and Found is another special scene for an important niche group that has developed, that would not be there otherwise. Give it some time. I love south end and can’t wait to see what it will become. It is going to end up distinguishing Charlotte from its peer cities

[deleted account]

40 minutes ago, metropolitan said:

That CM where Dimensional now sits, was really a hidden gem that most people were unaware of. It has not been replicated

I agree with everything you said but will add that the CM in PM is pretty much the same vibe. I love everything Dimensional brought to Charlotte, including that gorgeous (IMO) building. 

[TheOneRJ]

I should’ve known the hot replies were all off-topic. Does this forum have mods anymore?

[JRCLT]

I’m not sure how it’s off topic when we’re discussing a south end mid rise?

[jessediebolt]

6 hours ago, Blue_Devil said:

In all honesty, the Character SouthEnd has is, it is new and fun and modern. Old poorly maintained warehouses do not make character. Housing projects on the verge of being closed by the Federal Gov do not make character. These are things that should be destroyed and rebuilt upon. 

Exactly. It's sad for many that places like Price's and Phat Burrito are gone but are you really missing the days of empty rocky parking lots and unused warehouses? Just because a building is "new" and another is "old" doesn't mean the new one doesn't have character or won't be attractive. This area is being built now for the next 100 years. The previous 100 are long gone like the empty lots that once resided.

[JorgiPorgi]

I don’t know. Southend isn’t some hugely dense historic area, and never really has been I’ve lived in Charlotte itself since 2006, and in the area since my birth in 1984.  Up until recent years, Southend wasn’t much of a destination, and was largely old warehouses. Now it’s becoming a walking district with lots of shopping and restaurants. It is now, building its character. It doesn’t bother me if an old warehouse building gets torn down. I would love it if they could incorporate the old brick buildings into new projects- but again, this are isn’t largely dense with those to begin with. In conclusion, there was never much to destroy in Southend, as it was really just a kind of bare section of South Blvd just south of uptown to begin with. 

[kermit]

^ I agree. As someone who spent a good bit of time wandering through the pre-redevelopment Southend (circa 2000), there was very little that was noteworthy. For the most part the industrial properties were charmless (with the Design Center and the old Common Market area being the only real exceptions) and gravel parking lots were the dominant feature.  The overwhelming characteristic of the place was its emptiness, particularly after dark.

The transition of the area (I wound not label it as gentrification since no one lived there when the redevelopment began)  has generally been positive IMO. Some blah industrial buildings have been restored and converted into much more compelling uses (the new Common Market, Superica, Krispy Kreme and even Pins Mechanical is more interesting than before). There are people walking nearly everywhere all the time and many more options for food and drink. While there have been losses the area is much more 'livable' than it was 20 years ago.

Edited December 30, 2021 by kermit

[videtur quam contuor]

South End in 2000: Dales's radiator shop "Best Place to Take a Leak" (Dimensional Funds). New Big Village breakfast shop (Phat Burrito). Greek greasy spoon and no A/C. Smells of sweat and garlic. How it passed a health inspection is remarkable. Homeless camp(s) under the Morehead bridge and the trees beside the track behind the Arlington. Hobo camps of a sort. South of Publix there were warehouse/industrial buildings and the loading docks were sleeping areas for homeless and an amazing number of bicycles there for such a rough crowd. Better transportation than one would expect they could afford (wink). South Boulevard had a mattress shop, a tanning salon (?), Oleens (another thread, maybe). Word was that if one was out on Friday or Saturday night in Dilworth NEVER drive South Boulevard to your next destination (home I hope), because it was easy pickings for the police. 

What he said, in other words.

[cltheel.sdl]

I think my point is that in order for South End to remain an interesting neighborhood for the long run, the human-scale, semi-historical buildings that do exist (old mills, brick warehouses, etc) should be maintained as much as is humanly possible.  Giant buildings with huge parking decks/parking podiums detract from the character of the neighborhood - from what has made it appealing in the first place.  Architecture and design is critical in "place-making" and there needs to be a focus on quality and street activation in South End in order to ensure that it remains an interesting neighborhood.  Just because the new development is exciting doesn't mean we should throw preservation and good design out the window.

[Windsurfer]

2 hours ago, tarhoosier said:

South End in 2000: Dales's radiator shop "Best Place to Take a Leak" (Dimensional Funds). New Big Village breakfast shop (Phat Burrito). Greek greasy spoon and no A/C. Smells of sweat and garlic. How it passed a health inspection is remarkable. Homeless camp(s) under the Morehead bridge and the trees beside the track behind the Arlington. Hobo camps of a sort. South of Publix there were warehouse/industrial buildings and the loading docks were sleeping areas for homeless and an amazing number of bicycles there for such a rough crowd. Better transportation than one would expect they could afford (wink). South Boulevard had a mattress shop, a tanning salon (?), Oleens (another thread, maybe). Word was that if one was out on Friday or Saturday night in Dilworth NEVER drive South Boulevard to your next destination (home I hope), because it was easy pickings for the police. 

What he said, in other words.

Do you happen to remember a guy who had a relatively small army/navy store really close to where Leather and Lace is?  This was back in the70s.  The guy was kind of an eccentric genius who had really remarkable stuff from old military aircraft. Like gyroscopes, etc.  

And, fwiw, I used to call on Dale back in the 70s and 80s (selling auto parts)..  Cool guy who had the biggest stogies.  Before him (back in the 50s) was a widow who had poker games in the upper floor. Sounds like she was widowed from a police officer and all the cops knew about this place at the time.

Edited December 30, 2021 by Windsurfer
adding info

[videtur quam contuor]

I think the person you recall about the surplus equipment was named Cornell. Last name Cornell. It was his business for quite a few years. I cannot recall the location but I knew his son Jim who lived on Euclid and was a collector of all sorts of fascinating things including some of his father's goods. Jim Cornell had an Air Force missile planted in his front yard for years at 1620 Euclid. About 6-7 feet long and 18 inches high and pointed toward the street.  We lost those characters, the native americans, the semi homeless, the wanderers and vagrants, the offbeat, outcasts, those who built a berm of salvage plumbing fixtures around their property border and no one complained.