The Immensity of Toronto

[Cotuit]

Montreal doesn't need to feel European to have a different culture than Toronto, in fact I said nothing about it being European, and I offered New York and Chicago as two culturally different cities in the US, not suggesting that either was European, just that they were different.

Montreal is no more 99.9% "just like" every other Canadian city than Toronto is. Each city in Canada, like each city in the world has it's own unique cultural identity, even if you built an exact replica of Toronto in another part of Canada, or the world, it would have a unique cultural identity. No two amalgamations of people will reflect the same exact culture, and it has nothing to do with language or street grids, or historic quarters.

[G W North]

Well, I just don't agree with you. It's clear you won't convince me, and I won't convince you. The thread should probably be left to die.

[BrandonTO416]

I agree with cotuit - they aren't similar. Let's leave it at that.

[G W North]

You've never even been to Montreal heckles. What is your opinion based on? This would be like me commenting on the difference between Nashville and Memphis, LOL. Mine is based on 19 years living in Toronto, and about 6 visits to Montreal. Personally, I've never been to 2 cities more similar to each other than Toronto and Montreal. They're as similar as two cities could possibly be.

You say they're not similar, but they're beyond similar. They couldn't be more similar unless they stopped speaking French in Montreal. Other than the language, they're almost like carbon copies of one another.

[Scott]

I'm sorry but in my expierience Toronto is rarely spoken of anywhere but on these stupid forums but when it is it is never in comparison with Montreal.

btw- Toronto is a big city but immense is not the word that comes to mind.... big, perhaps... but immense?... Tokyo is immense, Mexico City is immense, Toronto is big to large. If this thread was posted at any other forum the author could expect a huge amount of of scorn and derision for posting such obvious foolishness.

[monsoon]

[BrandonTO416]

My opinion comes based on many visits to Toronto over the past two years (a month's worth of time added up, FYI) and the fact that virtually every person I've met in Toronto who knows both cities tells me they are different.

One friend recalled that Toronto has lots of highrises - many with lots and green space around them - but on the low level density it comes from mainly 2-3 story buildings.

Montreal isn't as skyscraper-happy as Toronto (although has more then any metro of 3.5 million in North America I'm sure) but has more 5-6 story buildings in solid form block-over-block; thus the "european" mention, even if Montreal doesn't have European culture.

Its like a comparison between Boston and Dallas. While not a perfect comparison as each respective city is very different, one could say Boston is european-like in form and has fewer "skyscrapers" then Dallas, but Boston is more urban and european like then Dallas. Even if Boston isn't european in culture by any means...

[Scott]

I meant "stupid" in the sense that all internet forums are trivial compared to the big issues in life, "these stupid forums" did not mean to imply that Donovan's forum is not worthwhile.

I also made the statement that the premise behind this thread is silly and I'm sure that if I started a thread called the 'immensity of Boston' or the 'immensity of Seattle' at SSP or SSC or anywhere I would surely be heckled (no pun intended).

[monsoon]

[Scott]

Though I'm free to do so I would never claim Boston was anything it is not. Like I said Tokyo, NYC and Mexico City are the standard in which one would judge "immensity" not Toronto, Boston or Kalamazoo.

[monsoon]

[G W North]

Give me a break Scott. The topic was about the "immensity" of the range of Toronto's highrises, the distance they stretch, and the amount of area they cover. There are nearly 1600 highrises within city limits alone, and close to 2000 in the metro area. The main ("central") skyline extends on and off from Lake Ontario to Steeles Avenue, a distance of about 11 miles. Other skylines extend for miles as well, like the DVP/404 skyline, and Mississauga's Hurontario corridor. If that's not "immense", I don't know what is. To say that Toronto's highrise range isn't immense is preposterous. Is Toronto "immense" in terms of density or the range of it's sprawl? No. It's skyline is though.

Saying that Boston's skyline is "immense" would be a little silly, as it has neither the numbers, nor the height, for that description. When Boston passes 1000 highrises it would not be so silly.

As for Montreal being "European" in style, I'm well aware of that stereotype. Having been to England, France, Belgium, Germany, and Holland though, and having been to Montreal 6 times, I can tell you it's not any more "European" any more than Toronto is European. Quebec City is the only European-style city in Canada. Outside of downtown, most of Montreal's density comes from 3-4 story buildings (mainly rowhomes). They have a little more brick, and Toronto has a little more wood in it's older structures, but that's the main difference. The old city of Montreal is also significantly less dense than the old city of Toronto, about 14k per square mile vs. about 19k per square mile.

I'm sorry but in my expierience Toronto is rarely spoken of anywhere but on these stupid forums but when it is it is never in comparison with Montreal.

What's your point? I'm speaking of Toronto in comparison to Montreal in this very thread. They are as similar as any 2 metros with over 2 million people anywhere, despite the language difference. I think people don't make this comparison all the time because the striking similarities between the cities are obvious to anyone who's spent time in both cities. They are Canada's 2 largest cities. They're similarity doesn't need to be pointed out. It is obvious.

And to say that Toronto is "rarely spoken of anywhere but on these stupid forums" is a stupid comment. It is by far the country's largest and pre-eminent city, and in the national news FAR more than any other city. I've lived in Edmonton and Vancouver, thousands of miles away, and even there, you hear Toronto in the news virtually every single day. It may rarely be spoken of in Boston, but Boston is almost never spoken of in Toronto either. I could make the statement, therefore, that "Boston in rarely spoken of anywhere but on these stupid forums". In fact, about the only time you hear Boston mentioned in Canada is when one of our sports teams plays one of Boston's. Other than that, it almost never makes the news.

I guess you "never" heard Toronto mentioned during the SARS crisis last year

I guess you "never" heard Toronto mentioned when it became the first place in N.A. to legalize gay marriage about a year ago

I guess you won't hear Toronto mentoined when it AGAIN hosts the gold medal game of the World Cup of Hockey this summer

[Cotuit]

You say they're not similar, but they're beyond similar. They couldn't be more similar unless they stopped speaking French in Montreal. Other than the language, they're almost like carbon copies of one another.

I just can't express how ignorant that sounds.

Every city is in some way unique from every other city. While the language is not the end all and be all of Montreal's uniqueness, your simple dismissal of the province's language is laughable. The influence of the french culture gives Quebec an undeniable uniqueness within Canada, just as french culture has contributed to the uniqueness of areas of Maine and Louisiana in the US (where almost no one speaks french an longer).

Being Canada's two largest cities, and the fact that Montreal is the most angliphied part of Quebec, certainly give Toronto and Montreal much in common. But would you say that Vancouver and Edmonton are basically carbon copies of Toronto on a smaller scale?

[BrandonTO416]

G.W. - I've been to Europe myself. Spent two weeks over there in 2000. You know - the pictures I see of Montreal give me the impression the city has density like Europe - not culture, not people, not the absolute detail of buildings in the city. But the style of density and urban landscape.

And Scott - I beg to differ. Toronto has more highrises then any city in North America, except for Chicago and New York. And I specifically called out "high-rises" in my first thoughts. Toronto doesn't have the density of New York, and a lot of the high-rises throughout the city are surrounded by greenery and lots, not meshed together upon a street sidewalk like Manhattan, and I admit this. Only in central Toronto do you find such density - and its quite a bit as is. For 10 solid miles on Queen Street's length you find nothing but urban shops, downtown skyscrapers, and urban housing. Same is true many blocks up on the various other streets. Toronto is no small city.

Its not as large as the "big 3" we have in the US - New York, Chicago, and Los Angeles are in a league well above Toronto. But even LA lacks the skyscrapers. Below that - DC, San Fran, Boston, and etc. compare very well in many respects to Toronto - in many categories you could say it fares poorly.

Here's another picture of Toronto's immense skyline presence. To the right between the apartment/condo buildings you see the North York skyline. To the far distant left is looking towards downtown Toronto. And this totally misses regions like Scarborough (with two shiny new glassy post-modern 40 story condo towers) as well as Mississauga (which is a city of some 680,000 people onto itself and has more highrises then most American metros of 2 million - like Tampa).

[G W North]

I just can't express how ignorant that sounds.

You really don't have a clue what you're talking about. I guess my uncle who has LIVED in both cities doesn't know what he's talking about when he says their cultures are no different

The fact that French is spoken predominantly in Montreal does not give the city a "French culture" at all. And yes, I've spent time in France. The fact that French is the first language simply means that French is the first language. Montreal's CULTURE is no more French than Toronto's. Quebec City is the only Canadian city with an even remotely European culture or built environment (save for a few city blocks here and there).

I've lived in both Edmonton and Vancouver, and no, they are not very similar at all. Toronto and Montreal are as similar as two cities anywhere in the world.

[BrandonTO416]

Please note the above photo was taken in what is considered very suburban Toronto. And no, not every building is a slab - but Toronto is the king of mid 1900's modern architecture. No other city has as much as Toronto in North America mostly because Toronto went through its first enormous skyscraper boom between the 50's and 80's (and has continued to this day). Miami may have a good number, though.