Traditional eltrain systems

[Ivory Tower]

One more site for ya cotuit

This supports what I figured in the first place, that lrts are just modern trollies/streetcars, and really have nothing to do with actual weight of the cars.

http://www.lightrail.com/definition.htm

[PghUSA]

I couldn't see those Pittsburgh photos when I posted before. Those are nice subway stops. How many underground stops does Pittsburgh have, and are all the Liight Rail stops high platform like that (i.e. you don't have to climb stairs to board the train), 'cos that is nice?

They have 3 "subway" stops all downtown but they are currently constructing an additional two-three stops over to the northshore and stadiums to be opened around 2006 or 2007. Also in the southern suburbs the lightrail also becomes a subway again around Mt. Lebanon for a mile or so.

http://pghbridges.com/pittsburghW/0584-4476/subgateA.htm

http://pghbridges.com/pittsburghW/0584-4476/subwood.htm

http://pghbridges.com/pittsburghE/0585-447...bsteelplaza.htm

Some Pittsburgh subway tunnels date back to 1863!

http://pghbridges.com/pittsburghE/0585-447...nhandle_tun.htm

Ivory, nice links, these are some important questions and I appreciate your insight into some of the differences, as far as Detroit not "counting" I think they do count but I and some others were just pointing out that some systems truely are "megasystems" and some are a few lines. Anyway let the el discussion proceed

[Ivory Tower]

I understand that.

The DPM is a mini system or a shuttle system, no doubt.

That is something I basically admitted already, but is yet another subject.

[Cotuit]

One more site for ya cotuit

This supports what I figured in the first place, that lrts are just modern trollies/streetcars, and really have nothing to do with actual weight of the cars.

http://www.lightrail.com/definition.htm

For purposes of lightrail.com's page(s), "Light Rail" is defined as follows:

An electric railway system, characterized by its ability to operate single or multiple car consists (trains) along exclusive rights-of-way at ground level, on aerial structures, in subways or in streets, able to board and discharge passengers at station platforms or at street, track, or car-floor level and normally powered by overhead electrical wires.

The rest of the definitions on lightrail.com's page point to my earlier statement that it is difficult to group transit systems into a few neat categories. There is certainly a tendancy to lump all trolleys, trams, streetcars... into the light rail category. However, 'Heavy Rail' such as NYCs subway cars is 'heavier' than most light rail, and cannot run on most track designed for light rail. However, there are light rail systems that have been retrofitted to operate on Heavy Rail tracks, even though the strength of the rails far exceeds the needs of the vehicles. The track was simply there, and the cars were made to use it.

The above definition could also define many heavy rail systems (just change 'normally' powered by overhead electric wires, to 'sometimes...'). Until recently, many cities even had heavy rail running in streets with moxe traffic, current transit safety rules don't allow for this. Light Rail is also not allowed to run mixed with heavy rail because of it's weight. In an accident the light rail car would be severely damaged by the heavier heavy rail cars.

Given only two definitions, 'heavy rail' and 'light rail' the DPM would be grouped into the light rail category. However, People Mover's and Monorails are usually given their own categories in discussion.

I really can't give Detroit props for building the People Mover, especially when the city was and has been in dire financial straights. I think it was a poor use of limited transit funds. There are so many transit projects that could have been built that would have had a better economic impact on the city's downtown other than the People Mover.

Not trying to single Detroit out (there are many many cities that have made terrible choices when it comes to transit) Detroit just happens to be the current topic of discussion.

[Ivory Tower]

Cotuit, please read again, and more carefully.

Because earlier you disputed what I've said previously, that lrts are basicaly streetcars.

And that actual weight really has nothing to do with the name.

What is Light Rail?

An electric railway system, characterized by its ability to operate single or multiple car consists (trains) along exclusive rights-of-way at ground level, on aerial structures, in subways or in streets, able to board and discharge passengers at station platforms or at street, track, or car-floor level and( normally powered by overhead electrical wires.)

Low-floor light rail technology is the (updated version of streetcar technology,) re-engineered to meet contemporary needs for accessibility by seniors, parents with strollers, and persons in wheelchairs, and that the new light rail vehicles carry more passengers than either the old trolleys or buses, cutting operating costs.

(Light Rail is the child of a streetcar mother)

(Simply stated: Light Rail = Trolley = Streetcar = Tram = Tramway)

Trolley (Past) ............................................................................... Light Rail

(Present)

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

History of the term Light Rail

The exact origination of the term light rail is unclear, however, (the term light rail was reportedly first used in the 1960's as a euphemism to avoid the (U.S.A.) term: trolley and streetcar), or (U.K.) term: tram and tramway. The term light railway has been used in England for years prior to it's current use referring to a type of mass transportation. Regardless, the name appears to have been introduced to try to give the streetcar/tram/trolley a more upmarket image.

On the other hand, the first new (and highly successful) system in the USA was aptly named the San Diego (Trolley). (Jeff Kurland)

(In most current settings, light rail is anything but "light",) and is built to exacting standards. Maximum speeds of light rail trains is normally 60 miles per hour (100 km per hour), while heavy rail trains normally operate at higher speeds. Depending upon the specific system, the distance between light rail stations is shorter than within heavy rail systems, which lends some major advantages to urban settings. Within a light rail system, trains may operate in mixed street traffic (urban areas), downtown malls, on dedicated rights of way, or in the middle of major thoroughfares, where trains cross intersections, in the same manner as other vehicles. Due to these factors, the "average" speed of light rail systems is significantly lower than heavy rail systems.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

And I would give props to any city that could build anything if it managed to do it in hard times.

And go back and read the DPM and other links again(looking at the pics also helps;), "peoplemovers" are just modern eltrains.

And the peoplemover systems aren't a waste of money.

They have been a success in other cities, and if it weren't for the mishandling of the project by Detroit and disputes with suburban communitys, the system would have stretched out for miles in different directions.

I thought I already made that clear.

I'll go further in detail, the suburban communitys started pulling out of the deal one by one, untill the plans for a metro rail system was dead.

The city of Detroit found itself with extra money, and under Coleman Youngs administration, they squandered it away.

So racial tensions and an untrustable Mayor is the reasons why the city just has a downtown hub.

So considering the city was in bad economical times,had a screwball for mayor and had racial tensions with surrounding communitys, I would give props that at least downtown got some kind of transit built.

It's easy for things to happen when things are going easy.

[Cotuit]

Cotuit, please read again, and more carefully.

I did read it. Generally, light rail is a trolleylike vehicle, however, in order to put the DPM into the neat heavy v. light categories, it would be classified by weight, as light.

Please read what I said again. There are weight issues related to the differences between light and heavy rail. The source that you saw that classified the DPM as light rail was using the weight definition, not the "cable driven car" definition you are using.

And really, I cannot give Detroit, props for "mishandling" and "squandering" an opportunity to bring useful transit to the city.

And a People Mover is not a modern El train, it is more like a horizontal elevator. The Tokyo train that monsoon posted, that is a modern decendent of the El train.

[Ivory Tower]

a sideways elevater.

That explains the conventional train wheels and dual steel tracks and no cable pulling it

The only thing different from the historic els, is that it is automated.

A sideways elevater would be a tram, like the one at Huntsville Hospital in Alabama.

Learn the difference.

http://www.hhsys.org/tram/

Heres an aerial pic, though not a good one.

There is no conventional rail mechanics in this like the DPM.

http://www.hhsys.org/tram/images/tramtrack.jpg

The DPM does have a third smaller (rail) placed just to the inside, on the side of the track.

This feature aids it in power and has an automated propulsion system that helps it to be automated(no driver) That is the only difference in it and old el systems.

A feature that could be modified to run cars WITH drivers.

Because the basics of the system IS conventional rail i.e. dual steel rails and train wheels.

That is why it IS called a train.

If anything shouldn't be lumped together, it is the different "peoplemover" systems.

"Peoplemover" is just a generic term.

Wether the DPM is considered lightrail by its actual weight IS a different subject.

The subject was...I said LRTs (cable driven)are basicaly streetcars and you disputed that.

And I proved you wrong dude.

You just can't admit it.

And before you blame the city of Detroit, you need to really blame the Mayor and the suburbs who closed their doors to railtransit.

They did build what they built.

But I expect no props coming from someone who is just against certain places, like Detroit.

[monsoon]

[Ivory Tower]

That looks more like some kind of cable car that just happens to be on an elevated track.

[Ron Newman]

Boston used to have lots of elevated trains. One by one, they have gone away:

The "Atlantic Avenue Elevated", along the downtown waterfront, closed in the late 1930s due to low ridership and was torn down for scrap metal for World War II

The "Charlestown Elevated" closed in 1975 and was replaced with the current Orange Line tunnel and depressed rail alignment from Haymarket station north

The "Washington Street Elevated", which ran through the South End, Roxbury, and Jamaica Plain, closed in 1987 and was replaced with the current Southwest Corridor alignment (mostly a depressed right-of-way with some tunnel sections)

The Green Line elevated from Haymarket through North Station to Science Park station closed just two days ago. It will be out of service for a year, then replaced by a new subway tunnel under the FleetCenter.

That leaves the MBTA with just a few remaining elevated fragments: the Red Line at Charles Street station, a Red Line overpass over Dorchester Ave. near Fields Corner, the Blue Line at Beachmont station, and (once it reopens next year) the Green Line elevated from Science Park across the Charles River to Lechmere in Cambridge.

[wolfdawg54]

That picture is similar to what goes up Lookout Mountain in Chattanoga!

[Ron Newman]

It's called a "funicular". You'll also find them in Quebec City, Pittsburgh, and Johnstown PA.

They make me nervous, since both Quebec's and LA's have had fatal accidents in recent years.

[omarmorek]

Vancouver's Skytrain uses ALRT (Automated Light Rapid Transit) with a third rail for power and is elevated except in the downtown core. It has 2 lines and 3 more are planned. Visit Translink for more info.