Frederik Meijer Gardens - $115 Million Expansions/Enhancements

[GRDadof3]

11 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

What exactly is the plan for Knapp?  Make it four lanes?  Grand River and Spaulding  seem to get busier and busier as people discover it's a much better alternative to the EBL  With all that housing going up near Spaulding and Cascade, it seems like it will only get more congested.  I wonder if or when they will look at expanding the road to four lanes.

Knapp is going to 2 wider lanes with a center left turn lane and wider paved shoulders. They have the section East of the Grand River finished.  It's pretty nice to bike on.

Grand River is nuts when Amway lets out with cars headed Northbound. Crahen is also a mess at rush hour North of Fulton, even with the reconfiguration. Everyone is taking EBL alternate routes. 

[Sparty97]

1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

Knapp is going to 2 wider lanes with a center left turn lane and wider paved shoulders. They have the section East of the Grand River finished.  It's pretty nice to bike on.

Grand River is nuts when Amway lets out with cars headed Northbound. Crahen is also a mess at rush hour North of Fulton, even with the reconfiguration. Everyone is taking EBL alternate routes. 

I have 2 or 3 alternate routes that I use instead of EBL during the rush hours (including Grand River Drive, Carl, Crahen, etc.) depending on what Waze is seeing on the freeway.  There are times that it takes 20+ minutes to get from Knapp Street to the 96 ramps.  

Also, I wish they would have just gone 4 lanes on Knapp and get it out of the way.  It is probably not required yet with the amount of traffic but it keeps getting busier and busier every year.    I know that the bridge over the Grand River is just 2 lanes, but I've already seen people using the turn lane as a passing lane dozens of time.  I expect the amount of development East of Pettis is going to grow substantially in the next 5-10 years and Knapp is the only bridge over the river for miles.

[wingbert]

39 minutes ago, Sparty97 said:

I have 2 or 3 alternate routes that I use instead of EBL during the rush hours (including Grand River Drive, Carl, Crahen, etc.) depending on what Waze is seeing on the freeway.  There are times that it takes 20+ minutes to get from Knapp Street to the 96 ramps.  

Also, I wish they would have just gone 4 lanes on Knapp and get it out of the way.  It is probably not required yet with the amount of traffic but it keeps getting busier and busier every year.    I know that the bridge over the Grand River is just 2 lanes, but I've already seen people using the turn lane as a passing lane dozens of time.  I expect the amount of development East of Pettis is going to grow substantially in the next 5-10 years and Knapp is the only bridge over the river for miles.

Don’t worry.  In 10 years they will address today’s road design needs.  

[GRDadof3]

4 hours ago, Sparty97 said:

I have 2 or 3 alternate routes that I use instead of EBL during the rush hours (including Grand River Drive, Carl, Crahen, etc.) depending on what Waze is seeing on the freeway.  There are times that it takes 20+ minutes to get from Knapp Street to the 96 ramps.  

Also, I wish they would have just gone 4 lanes on Knapp and get it out of the way.  It is probably not required yet with the amount of traffic but it keeps getting busier and busier every year.    I know that the bridge over the Grand River is just 2 lanes, but I've already seen people using the turn lane as a passing lane dozens of time.  I expect the amount of development East of Pettis is going to grow substantially in the next 5-10 years and Knapp is the only bridge over the river for miles.

Haha, I've seen people doing the same thing. It's totally illegal, and extremely dangerous.

I don't foresee development East of Pettis happening on a grand scale. It's all zoned 2 acre minimums now in those areas of Ada Township. The old Reith-Riley mining property that was shut down back in 2014/15 has been put on the market a few times but they want wayyyyy too much money for it. I don't know what the Amway land will be used for, along 2 Mile, Pettis and Egypt Valley I believe. I remember when they proposed an entire new village out there at one time. 

There's also a big chunk of land near Conservation next to the Skyvale development that has been on and off the market a few times. Not sure if it ever sold. 

[joeDowntown]

5 hours ago, Sparty97 said:

Also, I wish they would have just gone 4 lanes on Knapp and get it out of the way.  It is probably not required yet with the amount of traffic but it keeps getting busier and busier every year.    I know that the bridge over the Grand River is just 2 lanes, but I've already seen people using the turn lane as a passing lane dozens of time.  I expect the amount of development East of Pettis is going to grow substantially in the next 5-10 years and Knapp is the only bridge over the river for miles.

It seems like the road is getting REALLY close to a lot of houses along Knapp with the 3rd lane. I wonder if adding a fourth would be difficult / cost prohibitive because they'd have to buy houses and knock them down (some of the houses on the south side of knapp between Maguire and Dunnigan now have tiny driveways)?

Joe

 

[Raildude's dad]

Current traffic counts on Knapp are 10,000 at Grand River and 13,000 at Dunnigan. 2 lane road  is good for up to about 12,000.  3 lane section handles 9-17,000. A 4 lane section will have increased crashes due to left turn and right turn vehicles slowing or stopping. So, the next widening will go from 3 to 5 lanes like west of the Beltline.  A 5 lane road requires 60 feet, the existing right of way is 66 feet so to have the pathway and a 5 lane road will need additional ROW. The closest house now is about 20 feet from the ROW line but most are back a ways.

In the late 60's the Road Commission looked at extending Leonard Street east across the river and into Ionia County. The idea never gained any traction.

[GRDadof3]

29 minutes ago, Raildude's dad said:

Current traffic counts on Knapp are 10,000 at Grand River and 13,000 at Dunnigan. 2 lane road  is good for up to about 12,000.  3 lane section handles 9-17,000. A 4 lane section will have increased crashes due to left turn and right turn vehicles slowing or stopping. So, the next widening will go from 3 to 5 lanes like west of the Beltline.  A 5 lane road requires 60 feet, the existing right of way is 66 feet so to have the pathway and a 5 lane road will need additional ROW. The closest house now is about 20 feet from the ROW line but most are back a ways.

In the late 60's the Road Commission looked at extending Leonard Street east across the river and into Ionia County. The idea never gained any traction.

Yeah, now that would take you through some of the most valuable real estate in the Grand Rapids area. 

Which all of that reminds me that one of the Devos women apparently owns a mile of river frontage North of there, up around 5 Mile and Chauncey? And is planning to build some massive estate along the Grand River (up on a high bluff). There's already apparently a mile long boardwalk on the river. Who knew?!

 

[Allison Slater]

8 hours ago, Sparty97 said:

I have 2 or 3 alternate routes that I use instead of EBL during the rush hours (including Grand River Drive, Carl, Crahen, etc.) depending on what Waze is seeing on the freeway.  There are times that it takes 20+ minutes to get from Knapp Street to the 96 ramps.  

Also, I wish they would have just gone 4 lanes on Knapp and get it out of the way.  It is probably not required yet with the amount of traffic but it keeps getting busier and busier every year.    I know that the bridge over the Grand River is just 2 lanes, but I've already seen people using the turn lane as a passing lane dozens of time.  I expect the amount of development East of Pettis is going to grow substantially in the next 5-10 years and Knapp is the only bridge over the river for miles.

I think it was mostly seen as not needed but this all just makes me feel more strongly that it's about time we start thinking about a loop highway running from I-96/M-6 up to Rockford and around to 131.

[Raildude's dad]

Will never happen. The environmental constraints (wetlands) and ROW acquisition make it impossible.  M-6 took over 25 years to get built. The loop highway around Grand Rapids was the East Beltline, the South Beltline, the West Beltline and the North Beltline (3 Mile Road).  ROW was bought on  3 Mile in places but the river crossing killed it.

Some of you don't want to hear it but adding lanes is the only realistic option.  Adding a 3rd lane from Ann to Rockford on 131 would help tremendously. The ROW is there, just requires adding a lane.  Closing every other exit from 28th to I-96 would help that area.  A 3rd lane on 196 would help also. 

Now that MDOT's debt load is going to be gone, they should have more funds for improvements like you see in other states.

The new "residence" is on Chauncy where it turns east into 5 Mile at the bottom of the hill.  On a gravel road no less

Edited October 5, 2018 by Raildude's dad

[GRDadof3]

Going back to the Meijer Gardens for a minute, the new design is going to be decidedly different from the current design. It looks very GRAM-esque. Hoping it's not a bunch of cold concrete. The current design features a lot of fieldstone, tile and those concrete forms that are supposed to resemble trees. It did get to be a bit dated looking so it will be interesting to see how the new "museum" look comes out. 

[Pattmost20]

Just went to Meijer Gardens yesterday. The footprint of the new welcome center looks massive. I'm very excited to see it come together.

Also of note, I took a couple of friends for their first visits, one from Detroit and one from Cape Town. Both kept saying how it was so awesome to have such an amazing place so close to home. They were also remarking that they had just been to the Art Institute of Chicago (where they spent over $50 for the two of them) and said how much more fun they were having at the sculpture park (given it was partially due to not having to drop as much cash). It has really been great seeing that place grow over the years and I'll be really excited when they start to come out with plans for the old golf course.

[GRDadof3]

23 hours ago, Pattmost20 said:

Just went to Meijer Gardens yesterday. The footprint of the new welcome center looks massive. I'm very excited to see it come together.

Also of note, I took a couple of friends for their first visits, one from Detroit and one from Cape Town. Both kept saying how it was so awesome to have such an amazing place so close to home. They were also remarking that they had just been to the Art Institute of Chicago (where they spent over $50 for the two of them) and said how much more fun they were having at the sculpture park (given it was partially due to not having to drop as much cash). It has really been great seeing that place grow over the years and I'll be really excited when they start to come out with plans for the old golf course.

It's pretty well known now nationally or at least in the Midwest for botanical/sculpture garden fans. I wonder when it's finished how it will stack up nationally? It really is going to be huge. 

[Pattmost20]

1 hour ago, GRDadof3 said:

It's pretty well known now nationally or at least in the Midwest for botanical/sculpture garden fans. I wonder when it's finished how it will stack up nationally? It really is going to be huge. 

So based on the numbers I can find, it ranks between 2nd and 3rd in the Midwest in terms of attendance for an art museum (might be a weird comparison as at the art gallery portion is only a small part, but it is one of the few categories where statistics are thoroughly tracked). Art Institute of Chicago is 1st, Meijer Gardens and Minneapolis Institute of Art go back and forth between 2nd and 3rd depending on the year, Detroit Institute of Arts sits in 4th.

Meijer Gardens is building their welcome center to eventually handle between 1.2 and 1.5 million per year (currently they get about 750k). That is not far off of Chicago's numbers, and would but them pretty solidly into top 75, maybe top 50 globally (they are already in top 100), while most likely they would be top 10 nationally (currently around 15th).

These are 2014 numbers, Meijer Gardens has grown quite a bit, I think 2016 numbers were over 750k.

[GRDadof3]

3 hours ago, Pattmost20 said:

So based on the numbers I can find, it ranks between 2nd and 3rd in the Midwest in terms of attendance for an art museum (might be a weird comparison as at the art gallery portion is only a small part, but it is one of the few categories where statistics are thoroughly tracked). Art Institute of Chicago is 1st, Meijer Gardens and Minneapolis Institute of Art go back and forth between 2nd and 3rd depending on the year, Detroit Institute of Arts sits in 4th.

Meijer Gardens is building their welcome center to eventually handle between 1.2 and 1.5 million per year (currently they get about 750k). That is not far off of Chicago's numbers, and would but them pretty solidly into top 75, maybe top 50 globally (they are already in top 100), while most likely they would be top 10 nationally (currently around 15th).

These are 2014 numbers, Meijer Gardens has grown quite a bit, I think 2016 numbers were over 750k.

Wow, more great stats! That would really put FMG on the international radar. 

[joeDowntown]

That’s impressive. I hope they keep adding sculptures to their collection. In case anyone from FMG frequents this forum, I’d like to suggest a KAWS sculpture. Thanks!

 

[Pattmost20]

3 hours ago, joeDowntown said:

That’s impressive. I hope they keep adding sculptures to their collection. In case anyone from FMG frequents this forum, I’d like to suggest a KAWS sculpture. Thanks!

 

I'm definitely not an art, or more specifically a sculpture expert. But a quick googling of famous sculptors, both deceased and still working, really shows how impressive the collection is. I believe one list of top 10 greatest of all time included 2 artists featured at FMG, and a second list of top 10 living included 4 featured at FMG. Also of note neither list included the likes of Ai Weiwei, who is known more as a general artist that specifically a sculptor, or Deborah Butterfield, who is pretty well known around the country. 

[GRDadof3]

19 minutes ago, Pattmost20 said:

I'm definitely not an art, or more specifically a sculpture expert. But a quick googling of famous sculptors, both deceased and still working, really shows how impressive the collection is. I believe one list of top 10 greatest of all time included 2 artists featured at FMG, and a second list of top 10 living included 4 featured at FMG. Also of note neither list included the likes of Ai Weiwei, who is known more as a general artist that specifically a sculptor, or Deborah Butterfield, who is pretty well known around the country. 

More along @joeDowntown's post, how in the holy heck does something like that sculpture get created.  It looks to be made entirely of wood. In some ways it reminds me of  Tom Otterness's work, who exhibited here at FMG and all over downtown before AP. 

 

[joeDowntown]

The gardens definitely has an impressive collection. It’s crazy to think that this all started when a Meijer store at that location was denied, and Fred Meijer had a bunch of sculptures sitting in a pole barn. I remember going to FMG when it first opened and thinking it was nice, but would be really cool as the trees matured (in the atrium). Who would have imagined then that it would become a huge tourist attraction, concert venue, sculpture garden, etc. etc. etc. 

I also went to the unveiling of Davinci’s horse and remember thinking that they had just built the signature attraction. Now it’s just part of the collection. Pretty amazing!

Joe

[GRDadof3]

They do have some videos on the construction/expansion page but they haven't done one since June:
 

http://www.meijergardens.org/growing/

[Guest]

wow I had no idea how high it ranked in the world.  I figured only people for W. Michigan went there.  I did notice there were shuttle buses going from downtown to FMG for art prize.

[joeDowntown]

23 hours ago, GRDadof3 said:

More along @joeDowntown's post, how in the holy heck does something like that sculpture get created.  It looks to be made entirely of wood. In some ways it reminds me of  Tom Otterness's work, who exhibited here at FMG and all over downtown before AP. 

 

Not to derail this thread with my obsession with KAWS sculptures, but the photo I showed is made out of wood (he works in bronze as well- Dan Gilbert just put a KAWS sculpture in Detroit. Here’s an article about one of his 16 ft, 6 ton sculptures that was acquired by the Brooklyn museum:

https://www.wsj.com/articles/endearing-and-ominous-in-brooklyn-1432682617

Oh, and if anyone wants a huge piece of art in the river at the next ArtPrize, KAWS would have you covered (I don’t actually  think it would fit :))

 

Joe

[GRDadof3]

3 hours ago, Floyd_Z said:

wow I had no idea how high it ranked in the world.  I figured only people for W. Michigan went there.  I did notice there were shuttle buses going from downtown to FMG for art prize.

As someone who used to drive by there 4 - 6 times every day, I can attest that there are a lot of out-of-state license plates coming and going from there (completely lost and slowing down traffic lol). Not just during AP either. Ohio, Illinois, mostly. 

[Guest]

I've never actually been to FMG, but was curious about the amphitheater capacity.  Looks like it's around 1900.  I'm guessing there isn't enough space to make it on par with Pine Knob or Tinley Park.  I feel like GR is really on the cusp of being able to support a large amphitheater.  I know there was once talk of building one in millennium park.  If lived in Kzoo, Muskegon, Lansing, or N. Michigan I'd much rather drive to GR.  I'm sure it's harder to collect data, but I'd be interested to see where most people are from for shows at VAA.

[joeDowntown]

15 minutes ago, Floyd_Z said:

I've never actually been to FMG, but was curious about the amphitheater capacity.  Looks like it's around 1900.  I'm guessing there isn't enough space to make it on par with Pine Knob or Tinley Park.  I feel like GR is really on the cusp of being able to support a large amphitheater.  I know there was once talk of building one in millennium park.  If lived in Kzoo, Muskegon, Lansing, or N. Michigan I'd much rather drive to GR.  I'm sure it's harder to collect data, but I'd be interested to see where most people are from for shows at VAA.

I think fans (and artists) love the vibe of the FMG amphitheater and doubt they’d ever expand it to be much larger than it already is (imagine how much space that would take up. 

They had talked a while back about possibly adding a DTE style amphitheater to Millenium Park to offset some of the shows that Van Andre loses out to in the summer. But it never seemed to get much traction. 

Joe

P.S.  You need to visit the Gardens.

 

[Pattmost20]

36 minutes ago, joeDowntown said:

P.S.  You need to visit the Gardens.

Agreed. I don't go as much as I should, but every time I do I am blown away by how much there is to see. Also the Japanese garden is really world class and worth the trip alone.