Charlotte Greenway Trails

[15895]

I hope they'll have Bcycle stations along the greenway extensions.

[tozmervo]

Interestingly bcycle was one of the amenities that people could "vote" on, and it was the lowest vote-getter. That doesn't really mean that much, but something had to be the lowest vote-getter, I suppose.

[Spartan]

Re: McMullen and the county greenway master plan -

 

I think the whole plan from a financial standpoint has to be revisited sometime soon. The County is in a weird/good position right now. They have Charlotte ponying up millions for a very large section of greenway, and they are starting to cash in the bonds that were passed in 2008 - which means they are slowly getting to the backlog of projects on that list, including a number of greenway projects. Those will likely come to light in the next few years... but they have to compete with other county projects too. So, given what they are able to fund and what Charlotte is funding, they'll need to reevaluate which projects are next on their list to fund.

[UptownCLTwalker]

A shot of the new path on Wesley Heights Greenway. Replaces the awful sidewalk people would use for Panthers games.

[tozmervo]

The online wiki-map for the #XCLT is located here: http://wikimapping.net/wikimap/XCLT-Trail.html

 

You can add comments, suggested routes, etc. INPUT AWAY

[ah59396]

Just got back from a little out of town cycling adventure in Ottawa.  It shouldn't surprise anyone that their bike infrastructure blows ours out of the water (which is fine, we are getting better).  But one thing I noticed is the excellent labeling and marking of the green-ways they have in Ottawa.  The signage was everywhere to help make navigation very easy, but more importantly the paths themselves were marked much like a road, with a yellow line down the middle and indication on which way people should be walking and facing.  Now I know this should be inherent to people, "stay to the right", but anyone who has tried to ride on Charlotte's green-ways knows that people have a tendency to completely ignore this and take up the entire path.  Is there any reason why we don't paint our paths?  I can't imagine it would cost that much and seems like a no brainer in adding to the fluidity of travel along the pathways.

As an aside, I must say, anyone out there "against" building out a large scale biking infrastructure is nuts.  I've seen it first hand in many cities now, if they are built and built well...people use them.  A lot.  And every bike riding down the path is also an extra car off the road.  Ottawa even has "bikeday sunday" where they actually close a select number of vehicle roadways around the city and leave them open only to bikes.  It was wonderful.  

Hopefully someday Charlotte can boast a system like this!

 

 

[tozmervo]

One of the most fun trips I've ever had was driving up to Toronto with my bike and exploring all over that city. I probably put 30 miles 48 km on my bike that weekend. So easy to get around!

(...and then my bike was stolen from a rack at city hall, but that's neither here nor there...)

[ah59396]

One of the most fun trips I've ever had was driving up to Toronto with my bike and exploring all over that city. I probably put 30 miles 48 km on my bike that weekend. So easy to get around!

(...and then my bike was stolen from a rack at city hall, but that's neither here nor there...)

That's incredibly bad luck.  Certainly crime exists in Canada, but maaan, it's pretty rare.

[HopHead]

Admittedly I don't ride my bike as often as I'd like so I don't have the appreciation for this as much as you do, ah59396 but wow Ottawa's greenway look impressive. It's amazing how much better it is in Canada and a lot of the northern cities compared to what we have in Charlotte and the south in general. Little off topic, but I really like Ottawa. I know it gets overlooked compared to some of the other Canadian cities like Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, etc. But it really is a gem. I had the pleasure of spending the coldest week of my life there a few years back for work. On the Rideau Canal they had ice sculptures (there's a name for the event, the name escapes me at the moment) which was really awesome. Some great restaurants as well. I didn't get a chance to walk much because there was a cab strike in the city that week and I don't do well in sub zero temps. Hope to go back sometime... Will definitely checkout their greenway system if it's not during the winter. 

[Niner National]

Biking seemed pretty great in Montreal as well (although I didn't do any). They had a separate right of way beside the traffic lanes with a curb separating the bike lanes from the traffic lanes. These seemed to exist on most major streets.

[ah59396]

Admittedly I don't ride my bike as often as I'd like so I don't have the appreciation for this as much as you do, ah59396 but wow Ottawa's greenway look impressive. It's amazing how much better it is in Canada and a lot of the northern cities compared to what we have in Charlotte and the south in general. Little off topic, but I really like Ottawa. I know it gets overlooked compared to some of the other Canadian cities like Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver, etc. But it really is a gem. I had the pleasure of spending the coldest week of my life there a few years back for work. On the Rideau Canal they had ice sculptures (there's a name for the event, the name escapes me at the moment) which was really awesome. Some great restaurants as well. I didn't get a chance to walk much because there was a cab strike in the city that week and I don't do well in sub zero temps. Hope to go back sometime... Will definitely checkout their greenway system if it's not during the winter. 

It really is a gem and I agree, gets overlooked as a destination.  But I'd highly recommend checking it out when the weather is better, haha.  Regarding appreciation of the green-ways, I wanted to note that my wife really doesn't ride at all, but we still brought her bike along because I told her it would be so much more enjoyable to ride in a place like Ottawa as opposed to here, where you have to do a fair amount of "car dodging".  She was floored by how easy it was for her to ride there.  Certainly being 77 with no humidity helps, but just the general ease of riding and not having to worry about becoming a hood ornament makes for a really enjoyable riding experience.

[Guest]

I need to upload pictures of the Water of Leith walkway in Edinburgh, over 100 years old  (it was actually built in the 1980's). Victorian bridges pass over-head while ducks swim happily in the river. It's pretty much Narnia.

Trees and plants are left to themselves as they grow around the river, leaving a glorious, green canopy.

I hope they start planting local plant-life in Sugar Creek because right now it's bare by the river. It should be a celebration of our local forestland, no matter how hard we try to destroy it.

[caterpillar2]

 

That's incredibly bad luck.  Certainly crime exists in Canada, but maaan, it's pretty rare.

I was recently there. It is odd that over the past 10 years, attitudes amongst young people there has become quite negative. They are now complaining about crime, immigration, and a very unreliable transportation system (the metro specifically.)  It seems as if just over a decade ago it was the place to go. It is a big, growing city but problems are now surfacing. Give me Montreal any day. I am surprised my car wasn't stolen last time I was there. LOL.

[Guest]

Water of Leith Walkway, Edinburgh. Actually constructed in the 1980's.

[videtur quam contuor]

I walked the Irwin Creek greenway from Frazier Park today and what a pleasant experience it was. I have done this a few times in years past but the improvements are significant. From the paved lot across from Draught on Cedar or from the Rescue Mission on First Street there is a 12 foot wide asphalt walkway with shade trees making this an allée. This leads to the biggest recent improvement, the bridge over Irwin Creek which connects to the spur walkway to Frazier Park, Irwin Creek, Ray's Splash Planet and Elmwood Cemetery, for those so interested. I went on toward Bruns School and there is paving all the way on this greenway where before it was dirt and gravel only. There is a spur down to Calvert Street and another down to Lela Court. Drainage, landscaping and earth fill with concrete support are in progress. From Summit to Bruns the rail line has been uncovered of gravel and appears ready for a light rail car use. There is a small white conduit laid alongside this stretch of rail line, about thumb sized, with nothing in it that I could determine. Uses?

The greatest change in this area is certainly the Bruns/Katonah/Coxe/State Street area. 40 years ago I worked at Bruns School and this area was some of the most impoverished one could imagine with a few families with no electricity, children unwashed and reeking of kerosene. There were few cars on these streets as no one could afford such an extravagance. Certainly rental homes only and neglected, abused and sad looking. Katonah and Bruns dead end at the railroad, a recipe for dereliction. Now there are pleasant gardens and many vehicles on a Sunday morning mostly smaller cars with a few years on them.  These would be the cars one would buy when guided by good sense rather than ego. Homes nicely kept, for the most part. I am astounded by the positive change. You just cannot imagine.

[kermit]

^ Thanks for the update on the Westside, this area really does have tremendous potential.

" Katonah and Bruns dead end at the railroad, a recipe for dereliction."

A block or two up those streets are new build SFH that are _selling_ at $350,000. 

[Bikeguy]

..and less than 1/2 mile up Stewart Creek is this..

[ah59396]

I was recently there. It is odd that over the past 10 years, attitudes amongst young people there has become quite negative. They are now complaining about crime, immigration, and a very unreliable transportation system (the metro specifically.)  It seems as if just over a decade ago it was the place to go. It is a big, growing city but problems are now surfacing. Give me Montreal any day. I am surprised my car wasn't stolen last time I was there. LOL.

Well the growth in Toronto has been something incredible.  They just can't even begin to keep up with it.  As a result, you get the kind of growing pains you are referring to.  That and the TTC is flat out garbage and not nearly capable enough for the size of city Toronto has now become.

[Spartan]

Water of Leith Walkway, Edinburgh. Actually constructed in the 1980's.

that's a beautiful bridge. I wish more places would take the time and invest the money to make bridges a work of art. 

[dubone]

I walked the Irwin Creek greenway from Frazier Park today and what a pleasant experience it was. I have done this a few times in years past but the improvements are significant. From the paved lot across from Draught on Cedar or from the Rescue Mission on First Street there is a 12 foot wide asphalt walkway with shade trees making this an allée. This leads to the biggest recent improvement, the bridge over Irwin Creek which connects to the spur walkway to Frazier Park, Irwin Creek, Ray's Splash Planet and Elmwood Cemetery, for those so interested. I went on toward Bruns School and there is paving all the way on this greenway where before it was dirt and gravel only. There is a spur down to Calvert Street and another down to Lela Court. Drainage, landscaping and earth fill with concrete support are in progress. From Summit to Bruns the rail line has been uncovered of gravel and appears ready for a light rail car use. There is a small white conduit laid alongside this stretch of rail line, about thumb sized, with nothing in it that I could determine. Uses?

The greatest change in this area is certainly the Bruns/Katonah/Coxe/State Street area. 40 years ago I worked at Bruns School and this area was some of the most impoverished one could imagine with a few families with no electricity, children unwashed and reeking of kerosene. There were few cars on these streets as no one could afford such an extravagance. Certainly rental homes only and neglected, abused and sad looking. Katonah and Bruns dead end at the railroad, a recipe for dereliction. Now there are pleasant gardens and many vehicles on a Sunday morning mostly smaller cars with a few years on them.  These would be the cars one would buy when guided by good sense rather than ego. Homes nicely kept, for the most part. I am astounded by the positive change. You just cannot imagine.

I run and bike this a lot.   I'll just put some negative energy into the mix.  Nothing against the positive message, as I am glad we have them too.  But we have really low expectations for what gets built. 

- I posted about the brand new connector to Cedar before, but you can't get any worse of a design than asphalt next to asphalt with no new landscaping element.   It gets so hot to run along here because the southern exposure is left wide open to bake the asphalt.  I actually have chosen a few times to run in the mulch just to get some shade.  I can't believe that you referenced shade trees, because they actually removed the old shaded path and removed trees in this project, and the trees they kept are north of the path, shading the path only in very small sections. 

- The longstanding greenway section of the tongue-twisting Irwin Cweek Gweenray is the older designs that seem to encourage the build up of mud.  The city/county does not do nearly enough to clean the mud or the trees that block the stream collecting plastic litter.   I basically assume that 80% of the time, I will get muddy when using this path. Even if they built up a narrow 4' raised section of sidewalk, it would at least keep one path from being muddy.  They could probably add some sprayers to clear the mud without employee intervention if they really wanted to solve the problem.  

- The Iwwrin Cweek Gleenray also dumps you into a really annoying situation on the northern end.  There is a GATE and pathway in Elmwood Cemetery that would be a perfect extension to the greenway considering the roads in the cemetery are basically the longest mileage of trails protected from dangerous interactions with cars in downtown.  But the gate is welded shut, even though it is owned by the public, and already has open gates in many other areas.  Why would it be closed permanently at the point that it connects to a greenway?!

- With the Elmwood gate closed, the proper trail connection is the sidewalk in front of Ray's Splash Planet and the Irwin Elementary.  Yet, that sidewalk is narrow, has stairs that make it an annoying the cycling connection here.   Then to go towards Elmwood or 4th Ward, you must go through the grass here to avoid the steps by the dumpsters or else go 1/3 of a mile around to 5th Street.  

- Another gate that is annoyingly closed is the one connecting the newly improved 4th Extension St to Frazier Park here . They pave the street but use a gate instead of bollards, so cyclists cannot connect without jumping the curb and going around in the grass.  You can go under the bridge and around, but really it is not a good design to block cyclists on a paved road between a park and a street with bike lanes.   

- The water fountains are strangely grouped quite near each other, (2 in Elmwood and 2 in Frazier park either side of 4th), but consistently only 1 of each pair work, and at a trickle, with rather dirty and smelly conditions.  Water is a major aspect of recreation, and to me it is a huge problem to leave people without access to working water fountains, especially considering rising temperatures.  

 

- My only complaints about the old and the new sections in Wesley Heights are that the curves all require slow cycling.  Not a major problem, especially since it is no where near as treacherous to cycle this area as the CMC section of Little Sugar with its tiny perpendicular creek crossings.  

 

 

 

I am glad we are investing in greenways, but the gaps and the lack of connections at the ends just prove that they are working with a shoestring budget and not designing a comprehensive trail and biking system.  

[Spartan]

- The Iwwrin Cweek Gleenray also dumps you into a really annoying situation on the northern end.  There is a GATE and pathway in Elmwood Cemetery that would be a perfect extension to the greenway considering the roads in the cemetery are basically the longest mileage of trails protected from dangerous interactions with cars in downtown.  But the gate is welded shut, even though it is owned by the public, and already has open gates in many other areas.  Why would it be closed permanently at the point that it connects to a greenway?!

Somewhat ironically, I learned the City is the hold up on that gate. It's a city cemetery, and it is operated by the city's Engineering and Property Management Department. The Cemetery maintenance people don't  want the cemetery to be used as a park by introducing a formalized/signed greenway (if ICG were to be routed through) which is completely stupid since it already is being used that way. They also argue that families of the deceased would oppose it, that the sidewalk between the gate and the internal road network is too narrow (probably 4ft) and cannot be widened due to adjacent grave stones and that increased traffic would likely damage the grave stones over time.

All that being said, ultimately it's a decision that City Council can make if they wanted to. 

[ah59396]

I run and bike this a lot.   I'll just put some negative energy into the mix.  Nothing against the positive message, as I am glad we have them too.  But we have really low expectations for what gets built. 

- I posted about the brand new connector to Cedar before, but you can't get any worse of a design than asphalt next to asphalt with no new landscaping element.   It gets so hot to run along here because the southern exposure is left wide open to bake the asphalt.  I actually have chosen a few times to run in the mulch just to get some shade.  I can't believe that you referenced shade trees, because they actually removed the old shaded path and removed trees in this project, and the trees they kept are north of the path, shading the path only in very small sections. 

- The longstanding greenway section of the tongue-twisting Irwin Cweek Gweenray is the older designs that seem to encourage the build up of mud.  The city/county does not do nearly enough to clean the mud or the trees that block the stream collecting plastic litter.   I basically assume that 80% of the time, I will get muddy when using this path. Even if they built up a narrow 4' raised section of sidewalk, it would at least keep one path from being muddy.  They could probably add some sprayers to clear the mud without employee intervention if they really wanted to solve the problem.  

- The Iwwrin Cweek Gleenray also dumps you into a really annoying situation on the northern end.  There is a GATE and pathway in Elmwood Cemetery that would be a perfect extension to the greenway considering the roads in the cemetery are basically the longest mileage of trails protected from dangerous interactions with cars in downtown.  But the gate is welded shut, even though it is owned by the public, and already has open gates in many other areas.  Why would it be closed permanently at the point that it connects to a greenway?!

- With the Elmwood gate closed, the proper trail connection is the sidewalk in front of Ray's Splash Planet and the Irwin Elementary.  Yet, that sidewalk is narrow, has stairs that make it an annoying the cycling connection here.   Then to go towards Elmwood or 4th Ward, you must go through the grass here to avoid the steps by the dumpsters or else go 1/3 of a mile around to 5th Street.  

- Another gate that is annoyingly closed is the one connecting the newly improved 4th Extension St to Frazier Park here . They pave the street but use a gate instead of bollards, so cyclists cannot connect without jumping the curb and going around in the grass.  You can go under the bridge and around, but really it is not a good design to block cyclists on a paved road between a park and a street with bike lanes.   

- The water fountains are strangely grouped quite near each other, (2 in Elmwood and 2 in Frazier park either side of 4th), but consistently only 1 of each pair work, and at a trickle, with rather dirty and smelly conditions.  Water is a major aspect of recreation, and to me it is a huge problem to leave people without access to working water fountains, especially considering rising temperatures.  

 

- My only complaints about the old and the new sections in Wesley Heights are that the curves all require slow cycling.  Not a major problem, especially since it is no where near as treacherous to cycle this area as the CMC section of Little Sugar with its tiny perpendicular creek crossings.  

 

 

 

I am glad we are investing in greenways, but the gaps and the lack of connections at the ends just prove that they are working with a shoestring budget and not designing a comprehensive trail and biking system.  

 

I've said this before, but I'll echo it here.  I get really tired of this city attempting to be "okay" at every function of being a livable city.  It's like we are trying to be good at everything, all at once, and in reality just falling into the "mediocre" category in all of them.  I'd rather us focus our attention on being a premier parks and rec city, or greenway city, or light rail city, ect ect. as opposed to just having them all in some way or another.  I could live with a limited light rail system if I had an unbelievable greenway network...or vice versa.

[archiham04]

Welcome to our "Livable" City  ....where at least you won't die.

...at least for a while

[dubone]

Somewhat ironically, I learned the City is the hold up on that gate. It's a city cemetery, and it is operated by the city's Engineering and Property Management Department. The Cemetery maintenance people don't  want the cemetery to be used as a park by introducing a formalized/signed greenway (if ICG were to be routed through) which is completely stupid since it already is being used that way. They also argue that families of the deceased would oppose it, that the sidewalk between the gate and the internal road network is too narrow (probably 4ft) and cannot be widened due to adjacent grave stones and that increased traffic would likely damage the grave stones over time.

All that being said, ultimately it's a decision that City Council can make if they wanted to. 

The cemetery is already used as a park because there is a dearth of parkland uptown. There are a lack of trails that are protected from automobile-related death risks.    Even if it is just opened but putting a sign up to be respectful of the dead confederates buried there, I'm pretty sure I can run through just as respectfully as I ALREADY RUN THROUGH there.   I promise to not offend them by bringing any black friends or state my allegiance to the Union.    I won't even let my dog poop there, even though squirrels and birds and rats and worms and flies have already pooped a lot on their graves over the century.  

Let's also be clear, runners do not damage grave stones.  You know how 95% of the grave stones have been damaged?  By city landscaping crews on their riding lawn mowers.  

[cltbwimob]

 

 

I've said this before, but I'll echo it here.  I get really tired of this city attempting to be "okay" at every function of being a livable city.  It's like we are trying to be good at everything, all at once, and in reality just falling into the "mediocre" category in all of them.  I'd rather us focus our attention on being a premier parks and rec city, or greenway city, or light rail city, ect ect. as opposed to just having them all in some way or another.  I could live with a limited light rail system if I had an unbelievable greenway network...or vice versa.

I think greenways, LRT, and walkability all go hand-in-hand with each other, so I don't think it's a great idea to choose one over the other.  I agree that the city ends up half-assing a lot of things, but I think we should, as a city, commit to having both the best public transit system and best greenway/trail system of any city our size,  even if it means it takes longer to get it built.  Implementing optimal infrastructure rather than pairing it down to save a buck or bring a service to market more quickly  will produce much more desirable results from an economic and livability standpoint in the long run.