Waterside District

[varider]

I think it would work in Norfolk, and I'm trying to figure out why we don't have one in our downtown.

There's that one over off Church St. but I feel a market is a must for a real downtown.

[Sky06]

We need to look at Baltimore's inner harbor (and only the inner harbor nothing else!) to see what needs to be done at waterside.

Baltimore's Inner Harbor was developed by the same guy who developed Waterside, James Rouse. Waterside was extremely successful for years, using the same concept. I agree with the concept that Waterside cannot succeed on its own. It has to be part of a larger effort to revitalize the area. Light rail will definitely be a plus, but the St. Paul's Quadrant will play a key role as well. The new places on Granby Street are encouraging. As are the announcements about the Union Mission, etc. But all it takes is 1 front-page article by the most negative newspaper in the country, and all the good things go unnoticed. If you live, work, or play downtown, join the DNC to see what you can to help. Just a thought.

[urbanlife]

Baltimore's Inner Harbor was developed by the same guy who developed Waterside, James Rouse. Waterside was extremely successful for years, using the same concept. I agree with the concept that Waterside cannot succeed on its own. It has to be part of a larger effort to revitalize the area. Light rail will definitely be a plus, but the St. Paul's Quadrant will play a key role as well. The new places on Granby Street are encouraging. As are the announcements about the Union Mission, etc. But all it takes is 1 front-page article by the most negative newspaper in the country, and all the good things go unnoticed. If you live, work, or play downtown, join the DNC to see what you can to help. Just a thought.

Well now that is a lie, I think just about every newspaper is negative these days and just as bad as the Pilot...but then again, it is a dying industry, so they will do anything to get people to read and right now the older and negative people are their demographic.

[Norfolk4Life]

I think it would work in Norfolk, and I'm trying to figure out why we don't have one in our downtown.

... we did. then the city walled up the windows and filled it with bars....

[urbanvb]

From the Pilot just now.

The owner of Jillian's restaurant, one of the largest remaining tenants at the troubled Waterside marketplace, says he will open a new location inside Chesapeake's Greenbrier Mall and may close his downtown location.

Edited December 28, 2009 by urbanvb

[Achilles]

From the Pilot just now. Gee, Waterside is really heading downhill fast.

Beat me to it. I'm not sure if this is a good thing (if people never knew before, everyone will finally see how bad Waterside has become and actually do something to solve the problem, rather than escalate it) or a truly bad thing. I really don't think Waterside should be bulldozed for something else because that would be a serious waste of time and money, IMHO.

[varider]

SMH. Waterside is completely done. Look for Joe's, Outback, and Hooters to follow.

Maybe it will turn out for the best.

[Achilles]

SMH. Waterside is completely done. Look for Joe's, Outback, and Hooters to follow.

Maybe it will turn out for the best.

Perhaps it will. The article mentions something about Jillian's departure giving Norfolk quote "latitude in a new plan for Waterside." Although, Waterside has been many things before, so idk how well that's going to work out. I wonder if the city is intentionally driving these tenants out to start with a clean-slate for Waterside. Hopefully, they have some kind of plan for it that's not lame.

[varider]

The city must have a plan. I just hope it's great.

[mikeas]

Maybe they can get the remaining businesses to relocate elsewhere downtown. Atleast for the time being... The city needs to sell the place and let someone with some business sense run the place.

[ace707]

Maybe they can get the remaining businesses to relocate elsewhere downtown. Atleast for the time being... The city needs to sell the place and let someone with some business sense run the place.

If they decide to get waterside restarted then they should relocate hooters, outback, and Joes to Wachovia Center. Bring along Dunkin' Doughnuts and throw in a hhgregg or best buy and top it off with a return of beecroft & bull and Wachovia's issues of retail should be resolved. Then waterside will be prepared for the re-imagining it deserves

Edited January 2, 2010 by ace707

[varider]

I hope they relocate to Wells Fargoo. That would create a good deal of foot traffic for Monticello.

[brikkman]

Move Jillians out and you can forget about waterside, or Norfolk entertainment for that matter. Jillians was the most unique establishment they have/had and it was also multi-purpose and served a unique demographic. I've seen a lot of comments about waterside, but they all seem to follow three general paths of thought: Tear it down because its crime ridden (which no one has bother to produce those numbers), the DT folks want something strictly for them, and the young hip crowd wants whatever is popping.

I will mention a few things I think needs to be corrected first:

1. Remove control from NHRA - This should have been done years ago anyways, just look at the conditions/rules surrounding our public housing and section 8 programs.

2. Provide central entertainment like they did once before, or build out the space.

3. Complete the second floor - There is no need for an atrium that oversees nothing of value.

4. Reduce parking - especially if the immediate garages are paid for.

5. Either give it away (sell it) or allow these business to operate in a manner that is good for everyone involved.

6. Expand out door activities surrounding waterside.

7 Creative leases always attract businesses

Do those 7 things (hell only number 3 cost you real money) and you would not even have to upgrade the venue or clean up the bathrooms.

Aside from that, this is a really sad time in history for Norfolk. They have managed to change complete direction from only 10 years ago. You would have thought that the recession would have killed some things off in Norfolk, but turns out the city council is doing it single handily.

Some people want variety, some people want upscale, some just want to beotch. I think it is wrong that the city gives tax breaks to developers but depends on its resident to foot the bill of future needs. AT some point, you have to look at what you are offering people. Its easy to rock back on your heels Norfolk, because your population right now consist of older people/families who are established and do not concern themselves with the regular challenges that young professionals, young bodies, and concerns that other people have. Right now you have section of the residents feeding completely off tax payers money and you (the city of Norfolk) do not have enough balls to make sure these people are deserving and not abusing this gift. Then you have another section of people who are fine with life, they would rather not see more building, advanced technology because they are older, could care less about things outside their lives if it does not raise their taxes. They brought their homes at fair prices, low mortgages and in neighborhoods they love. Then you have a younger population that is trying to get their slice of the pie who only want outside of the uncontrollables is to enjoy a beer, dance with a babe/guy, and be able to eat dinner late when they are not tired.

I'm trying to figure out what city really wants to do with the city in general, let alone waterside. Right now, they probably just want to abandon it to sell it, only problem is they should have negotiated that years ago.

[Norfolk4Life]

Move Jillians out and you can forget about waterside, or Norfolk entertainment for that matter.  Jillians was the most unique establishment they have/had and it was also multi-purpose and served a unique demographic.  I've seen a lot of comments about waterside, but they all seem to follow three general paths of thought:  Tear it down because its crime ridden (which no one has bother to produce those numbers), the DT folks want something strictly for them, and the young hip crowd wants whatever is popping.  

I will mention a few things I think needs to be corrected first:

1.  Remove control from NHRA -  This should have been done years ago anyways, just look at the conditions/rules surrounding our public housing and section 8 programs.

2.  Provide central entertainment like they did once before, or build out the space.

3.  Complete the second floor -  There is no need for an atrium that oversees nothing of value.

4.  Reduce parking - especially if the immediate garages are paid for.

5.  Either give it away (sell it) or allow these business to operate in a manner that is good for everyone involved.

6.  Expand out door activities surrounding waterside.

7   Creative leases always attract businesses

Do those 7 things (hell only number 3 cost you real money) and you would not even have to upgrade the venue or clean up the bathrooms.

Aside from that, this is a really sad time in history for Norfolk.  They have managed to change complete direction from only 10 years ago.  You would have thought that the recession would have killed some things off in Norfolk, but turns out the city council is doing it single handily.

Some people want variety, some people want upscale, some just want to beotch.  I think it is wrong that the city gives tax breaks to developers but depends on its resident to foot the bill of future needs.  AT some point, you have to look at what you are offering people.  Its easy to rock back on your heels Norfolk, because your population right now consist of older people/families who are established and do not concern themselves with the regular challenges that young professionals, young  bodies, and concerns that other people have.  Right now you have section of the residents feeding completely off tax payers money and you (the city of Norfolk) do not have enough balls to make sure these people are deserving and not abusing this gift.  Then you have another section of people who are fine with life, they would rather not see more building, advanced technology because they are older, could care less about things outside their lives if it does not raise their taxes.  They brought their homes at fair prices, low mortgages and in neighborhoods they love.  Then you have a younger population that is trying to get their slice of the pie who only want outside of the uncontrollables is to enjoy a beer, dance with a babe/guy, and be able to eat dinner late when they are not tired.

I'm trying to figure out what city really wants to do with the city in general, let alone waterside.  Right now, they probably just want to abandon it to sell it, only problem is they should have negotiated that years ago.

I disagree with your want to 'complete' the second floor. the reason that it was built like that was because the second floor was not meant to be closed up for the places up stairs. it was designed to be like macarthur center. i would go out on a limb and say that you dont think macarthur should 'complete' their second floor, right? i think that waterside still has a good chance. i definitely agree when you say kick NHRA out. If a private management company were the ones benefiting, it could turn a profit in a year or two. no government can create jobs or successful business. the private sector has to be in charge. i think that jillians would probably do better outside of waterside (elsewhere in downtown). the only reason they had lots of business was b/c of the other places in waterside. what it really needs is some form of major anchor store. if it were redesigned to be like a mini-mall, i think it could do just fine. 

[usermel]

All Waterside needs is 2 attractive shops like a Polo shop or Hilfiger or some other name brand shops they can use to attract shoppers. Wuld be a great idea to bring the outlet to Waterside like the ones in Williamsburg! If not those shops maybe some other brand names will do. Waterside was not planned to compete with a mall like MacArthur which is the main reason it struggles now. It can be saved if they also bring in a person/persons who can examine and then activate a plan to bring it back to life. Its a shell of what it was in the early 2000's and thats not that long ago. It has feel because it went away from what it was which was a family eatery/shopping place that is on the water.

I have nothing against Bar Norfolk or any of the club/bars they have there now and those that were sut down. I feel bad for those businesses because in a tough economic climate its hrrible to be shut down. That said, they never should have located those businesses there(I mean never should have been allowed there).in the 1st place. Jullians needs to go back to being a family eatery with games and stop the late night thing they do with dress codes etc.! To much like a club than a fun eatery/video game spot! The formula they had worked and they allowed it to change and change is good but, the direction is equally as important!

Waterside can be saved to me and with the right idea in place will be a draw again but, should not be a place for drinking and partying because its not what made my parents bring me there every summer/spring as a child. It was the fact it was family friendly. Last time I went there it seemed seedy and ghetto(not related to race) in its vibe! Waterside is were you use to go for fun and NO DRAMA! Meaning no fights at all. Its become what it is because things are what they are(It is what it is)! The city is part of the blame as well. They need more police present there to avoid these fights and robberies etc.! Just hope/pray Waterside gets 1-2 businesses that are popular to attract folks back. If not!!! Oh WELL!!!! L.G.N.M

[mikeas]

That's a pretty good idea. A designer outlet mall would be a good use for the place until they figure out what to do with the rest of it. Prime Outlets is far away.

[brikkman]

I disagree with your want to 'complete' the second floor. the reason that it was built like that was because the second floor was not meant to be closed up for the places up stairs. it was designed to be like macarthur center. i would go out on a limb and say that you dont think macarthur should 'complete' their second floor, right? i think that waterside still has a good chance. i definitely agree when you say kick NHRA out. If a private management company were the ones benefiting, it could turn a profit in a year or two. no government can create jobs or successful business. the private sector has to be in charge. i think that jillians would probably do better outside of waterside (elsewhere in downtown). the only reason they had lots of business was b/c of the other places in waterside. what it really needs is some form of major anchor store. if it were redesigned to be like a mini-mall, i think it could do just fine. 

What's the big deal with malls at waterside? We have a mall, its macarthur center. I do not look at waterside and macarthur center the same, so building out the second floor is not such a stretch. Waterside was left to what it is now because people lost interest. People lost interest because in part, it had a lot to do with the entertainment, it gave people a reason to come to "waterside". You can eat chinese food anywhere, you could eat icecream anywhere. The draw was the entertainment, TPP included. Also, it is a bad play the river use and it should be used as 365 venue, not just the hot days.

[varider]

I think it's a shame that Norfolk has some of the most beautiful waterfront views downtown that you will find, yet the city has no idea how to capitalize on it's assests and the centerpiece of the waterfront is a fooodd court. It's dissappointing.

[urbanlife]

I think it's a shame that Norfolk has some of the most beautiful waterfront views downtown that you will find, yet the city has no idea how to capitalize on it's assests and the centerpiece of the waterfront is a fooodd court. It's dissappointing.

I hate to agree, but you are right...and what is even worse is that the city only has Waterside Dr to deal with instead of what most cities have, which is an interstate that separates the city from the water.

[varider]

I hate to agree, but you are right...and what is even worse is that the city only has Waterside Dr to deal with instead of what most cities have, which is an interstate that separates the city from the water.

It's almost embarrassing!

[rusthebuss]

Lets hope they tear it down and open it up! It would be nice to move all of those businesses to Wells Fargo building

[usermel]

The other option is to do as Rusthebuss commented and close it down and move the businesses. The next thing that could be postive about tearing it down and clearing the space is another signature office building. I didnt think of it until reading Rusthebuss' comment,thanks Russ! It can either be turned around and saved or become a positive by putting the vacated space to use.! I also agree it is ashame that this is an issue. A great looking waterfront and a exceptional location as Waterside is shouldnt have this issue. They need to go some place and plan out an idea to bring back the passion for Waterside or look for businesses looking for prime waterfront real estate and offer a discount or cheap deal to buy the land and make the money back via taxes over the years! I hope they fix up the place via a popular retail company locating there or making it a Polo or Tommy Hilfiger outlett or some other name brand to attract shoppers. That said, lets see if those in office(city government) care as much as we do!!! Makes me think!!! L.G.N.M

Edited January 11, 2010 by usermel

[Norfolk4Life]

What's the big deal with malls at waterside?  We have a mall, its macarthur center.  I do not look at waterside and macarthur center the same, so building out the second floor is not such a stretch.  Waterside was left to what it is now because people lost interest.  People lost interest because in part, it had a lot to do with the entertainment, it gave people a reason to come to "waterside".  You can eat chinese food anywhere, you could eat icecream anywhere.  The draw was the entertainment, TPP included.  Also, it is a bad play the river use and it should be used as 365 venue, not just the hot days.

Im not saying turn it into a mall. I was referring to the design. If you build out the second floor, you lose the open nature of the building. I used the mall idea because, if you have been to MacArthur, you know how the open nature of the building contributes to its feel. 

I also have to disagree with the demolition of the building for use as an office tower site. We would lose a great public space that way. I think Waterside should be renovated. New paint. New lights. Re-open the second floor. More windows. The reason that the building was such a draw before was partly due to its view of the river. If that were returned with the addition of a local seafood place and other locally owned stores, I think it could succeed again. I do think that the management should be transferred to a private company though. Private companies know way more about profit than a city agency that simply requests a budget increase. 

[brikkman]

Im not saying turn it into a mall. I was referring to the design. If you build out the second floor, you lose the open nature of the building. I used the mall idea because, if you have been to MacArthur, you know how the open nature of the building contributes to its feel. 

I also have to disagree with the demolition of the building for use as an office tower site. We would lose a great public space that way. I think Waterside should be renovated. New paint. New lights. Re-open the second floor. More windows. The reason that the building was such a draw before was partly due to its view of the river. If that were returned with the addition of a local seafood place and other locally owned stores, I think it could succeed again. I do think that the management should be transferred to a private company though. Private companies know way more about profit than a city agency that simply requests a budget increase. 

Yeah, I guess that is my point, there is no need with the present construction. I do not get a sense of "airy" now when I walk in there, but that is because of the construction and choice of materials. If they were (IMO) to leave it and renovate it, they should finish the second floor. Don't get me wrong, I agree with an open feel, just not in that building. Waterside should be bigger generally speaking. I think urbanlife posted a concept they should look towards. He suggested they extend the building to waterside corridor (sidewalk) which would give the area double the space. I also agree with giving it to the private sector, I just wish they would utilize the waterfront more. It would be nice if they could do something in conjunction with Portsmouth's waterfront. I think that could be a draw worth looking into. I believe the other thing that could help waterside is softening that area up to Harbor park. When I say soften, I mean give people a reason to park and walk along that area. That would include building more waterside establishments along the river that stretchs park to park. Nice resturants is a thought, but I like the orange brick bar along and under the bridge concept a lot better. If you do not like the bar concept, that is a great place for the fish/seafood markets everyone talks about. I would rather see something along that stretch instead of where waterside currently sits. Besides, its near a park, no one comes to a park expecting to buy unless it is a fest. I think that's part of the reason why I look at waterside as entertainment, rather than shopping of any type.

[ronsmytheiii]

The city must have a plan. I just hope it's great.

Perhaps the Divaris plan? The city did not reject it, they just weren't ready yet. Perfect place for it. Also instead of moving Jillian's to Wells Fargo why not put in a Busters? I dont think all the bars in Waterside should move to one location, they should spread them out downtown, since people complaiin about bars on Granby street.