Waterside District

[Norfolk4Life]

Perhaps the Divaris plan? The city did not reject it, they just weren't ready yet. Perfect place for it. Also instead of moving Jillian's to Wells Fargo why not put in a Busters? I dont think all the bars in Waterside should move to one location, they should spread them out downtown, since people complaiin about bars on Granby street.

Are you talking about a Dave & Buster's? Jillian's is owned by them. Hence near-identical logo and slogan. I do agree with spreading the bars out though.

[varider]

Are you talking about a Dave & Buster's? Jillian's is owned by them. Hence near-identical logo and slogan. I do agree with spreading the bars out though.

While I was aware that Jillian's is owned by the same people as Dave and Busters... it's easy to tell that Jillian's is like the 2nd tier establishment. I've only been to Dave and Busters once, but the atmosphere and food was soo much better than our dingy Jillian's.

[urbanlife]

Yeah, I guess that is my point, there is no need with the present construction. I do not get a sense of "airy" now when I walk in there, but that is because of the construction and choice of materials. If they were (IMO) to leave it and renovate it, they should finish the second floor. Don't get me wrong, I agree with an open feel, just not in that building. Waterside should be bigger generally speaking. I think urbanlife posted a concept they should look towards. He suggested they extend the building to waterside corridor (sidewalk) which would give the area double the space. I also agree with giving it to the private sector, I just wish they would utilize the waterfront more. It would be nice if they could do something in conjunction with Portsmouth's waterfront. I think that could be a draw worth looking into. I believe the other thing that could help waterside is softening that area up to Harbor park. When I say soften, I mean give people a reason to park and walk along that area. That would include building more waterside establishments along the river that stretchs park to park. Nice resturants is a thought, but I like the orange brick bar along and under the bridge concept a lot better. If you do not like the bar concept, that is a great place for the fish/seafood markets everyone talks about. I would rather see something along that stretch instead of where waterside currently sits. Besides, its near a park, no one comes to a park expecting to buy unless it is a fest. I think that's part of the reason why I look at waterside as entertainment, rather than shopping of any type.

Care to explain this one further, I am not sure I am reading it right or not. No one comes to "a park" or "this park?" Because if it is "a park," then I can easily shoot that down by showing how many successful parks there are in the world and how important they are for healthy urban living. But if you are suggesting this park, then I agree that it is currently under used and does need to be seen as a place for people to go to for whatever the reason is. Increasing livability downtown will definitely help with this need.

I have always found it odd that there is not apartment or condo towers or buildings along the waterside area...you would think that when that area was being planned out, who ever was in charge would of decided to have an office tower, a residential building or two, a hotel, the Waterside mall, and the park.

Also referring to what I pointed out a few months back, I did say that Waterside should be expanded towards Waterside Dr. Connecting Waterside mall to a wide sidewalk along Waterside would be a good move to help reconnect the mall to downtown. Then treating the entire length of Waterside along the river (from Naticus to Harborpark) as one and how each building along that distance interacts with it is also key. Waterside Place should be seen as one with the park.

It should also be filled with things that people want that effect them at different times of the day, having different crowds moving through there at different times is very important for its livelihood.

[brikkman]

Care to explain this one further, I am not sure I am reading it right or not. No one comes to "a park" or "this park?" Because if it is "a park," then I can easily shoot that down by showing how many successful parks there are in the world and how important they are for healthy urban living. But if you are suggesting this park, then I agree that it is currently under used and does need to be seen as a place for people to go to for whatever the reason is. Increasing livability downtown will definitely help with this need.

I have always found it odd that there is not apartment or condo towers or buildings along the waterside area...you would think that when that area was being planned out, who ever was in charge would of decided to have an office tower, a residential building or two, a hotel, the Waterside mall, and the park.

Also referring to what I pointed out a few months back, I did say that Waterside should be expanded towards Waterside Dr. Connecting Waterside mall to a wide sidewalk along Waterside would be a good move to help reconnect the mall to downtown. Then treating the entire length of Waterside along the river (from Naticus to Harborpark) as one and how each building along that distance interacts with it is also key. Waterside Place should be seen as one with the park.

It should also be filled with things that people want that effect them at different times of the day, having different crowds moving through there at different times is very important for its livelihood.

When I initally wrote it, I believe I was talking about both concepts, lol. I am trying to think of some parks that are distinct as you described, but can not think of any at the moment. I got to say, I'm a little surprised you suggested an office tower or residential building, I thought you were against tower buildings along the waterfront, or maybe that was someone else!.

It should also be filled with things that people want that effect them at different times of the day, having different crowds moving through there at different times is very important for its livelihood.

I definitely agree with is, and this is the fundamental problem with waterside and TPP. What the masses have suggested up to this point was to move the 12nooners and 4pm to 8pm people in and forget the morning 8am-11 and 8pm to 3am people which creates dead spots throughout the day. Waterside issues in terms of wants may have to do with it not being big enough to suit the different perspectives! I always thought it should be a little bigger. It is also a drag to come into DT and see the dead, never on, sorry fountain that the sheraton has, then peering to the left "dead waterside". You should see the establishment sign, it looks so sorry. On side it has a few things. On the other side it has "Jillians" blank spot, blank spot, blank spot, blank spot. They could have at least prevent the lights from coming on in the blank spots.

Also, I resuggest what I stated earlier about softening the entire area along the river from harbor park to waterside. Also, it would be nice if they could redo the sheraton so that it is multi-use hotel like what vegas does with it retail on the bottom floors in their hotels.

[urbanlife]

Actually the office tower is already there, I was referring to...hmmm, I forgot what bank it is named after now, it use to be First Union at one time, but that tower. And I was more referring to what should of been rather than what is now. The Sheraton shouldnt of been the size it is, plus there is alot of wasted space between the building and Waterside Dr, a hotel and a couple apartment buildings could of fit in that spot. Also I am for anything that puts residents along waterfronts as long as it doesnt privatize the waterfront.

[varider]

There's a lot of residents living near Waterside already. Right next to Nauticus is that 10 or so story tower.. then Freemason Harbour is lined with apartments/condos..

[brikkman]

Actually the office tower is already there, I was referring to...hmmm, I forgot what bank it is named after now, it use to be First Union at one time, but that tower. And I was more referring to what should of been rather than what is now. The Sheraton shouldnt of been the size it is, plus there is alot of wasted space between the building and Waterside Dr, a hotel and a couple apartment buildings could of fit in that spot. Also I am for anything that puts residents along waterfronts as long as it doesnt privatize the waterfront.

It is called the bank of hamptonroads if am not mistaken. I guess apartments would work if you soften the area. If they were to just plop it now, it would be kind of weird. It is so much potential right there, consider the views are crappy along that stretch, it should have a real urban feel.

[varider]

Waterside/Town Point Park/Freemason Harbour area is actually my favorite part of downtown Norfolk. I really love the waterfront views.

This is "my" (part mine, part expansion of others ideas)

Tear down the ugly five story Waterside parking deck. Use that land for a 15 floor condo tower and a 20+ floor office tower(parking included), with retail fronting Waterside Dr. and Atlantic. A re-built, larger Waterside that is flush to a wide sidewalk on Waterside Dr. (maybe 5 flooors? mix of chains like Dave & Busters, Outback, Hooters, etc. then a local farmers market? seafoood market? a few condos?)

[urbanlife]

Waterside/Town Point Park/Freemason Harbour area is actually my favorite part of downtown Norfolk. I really love the waterfront views.

This is "my" (part mine, part expansion of others ideas)

Tear down the ugly five story Waterside parking deck. Use that land for a 15 floor condo tower and a 20+ floor office tower(parking included), with retail fronting Waterside Dr. and Atlantic. A re-built, larger Waterside that is flush to a wide sidewalk on Waterside Dr. (maybe 5 flooors? mix of chains like Dave & Busters, Outback, Hooters, etc. then a local farmers market? seafoood market? a few condos?)

Actually a redevelopment of that garage would be a good idea, something that would allow retail along the sidewalk and could have office or apartments above it or a mix of things. It would have to work with the hotel, which would influence the design. There would need to be a garage incorporated into the building as well, but possibly not as big.

[varider]

I don't understand why retail doesnt front waterside already?

And what hotel are you referring to?

[urbanlife]

I don't understand why retail doesnt front waterside already?

And what hotel are you referring to?

umm, the waste of space one that sits just to the east of Waterside, unless for some reason that isnt there anymore.

[usermel]

Were Waterside is located can be looked at as its most valuabe piece of land to a small degree. I have no idea what Norfolk should do about Waterside. What I hope is whatever is done there it last for the next 50 years or more instead of the 25-26 Waterside has. Im very saddened by Watersides demise but can say after the Fudgery and the entertainment part of it was removed and it started to lose shops it became very lifeless. Can it be revived? I think its always a youth(18-34) thing that determines that! Me, Im not  a hang out MAN anymore and most of my enjoyment time is family oriented! I see some great ideas from other U.P. members though. Thats promising that we care. Hopefully one of the younger members will stay local and enter local politics and be a part of the solution because what I see is alot of smart and WISE young men/woman with great ideas. We dont have alot of jobs to keep these young folks but, maybe they can be the ones who bring jobs so that fututre youngsters can go to school here and afterward work here. L.G.N.M

Edited January 22, 2010 by usermel

[varider]

I heard crickets chirping in Waterside today.

[urbanlife]

That is such a shame to see.

[varider]

It reallly is. It's so empty. I went in the "City Market" to get a drink and the lady seemed shocked that somebody actually bought something. Norfolk deserves so much more.

[rusthebuss]

the city is the one that did this...we really need people in position that know what the hell they are doing

[usermel]

I agree with all the last comments since my last. I went to The Spirit of Norfolk for New Years brunch but, didnt enter Waterside. It just hit me that when I was younger Waterside was a place to be. Even for those older than the younger crowd it was a meeting spot for adults to walk the waterside and catch the ferry. So sad, so sad. I know the look of surprise when business has been bad. I cant think of a time in the 1990's when I went to downtown I didnt want to go in Waterside or went in. Is it just time? What I mean is can it be just a sign of the times like newspapers almost being a thing of the past and fax machines soon to be gone as well?

If it is I dont like it(newspapers are a great tradition) one bit. Waterside reps alot of natives childhood and further its a place were we would socialize and talk and laugh and joke and play. MacArthur may be the cause in my book. Whats the need for Waterside when theres a mall with a movie complex as well and many eateries!!! Lets hope they fix Waterside or replace it with a quality project that last for years to come ladies/gents!!! L.G.N.M

So empty, so ashame. The city can fix it!! The question is this. Will they???? L.G.N.M

[brikkman]

I agree with all the last comments since my last. I went to The Spirit of Norfolk for New Years brunch but, didnt enter Waterside. It just hit me that when I was younger Waterside was a place to be. Even for those older than the younger crowd it was a meeting spot for adults to walk the waterside and catch the ferry. So sad, so sad. I know the look of surprise when business has been bad. I cant think of a time in the 1990's when I went to downtown I didnt want to go in Waterside or went in. Is it just time? What I mean is can it be just a sign of the times like newspapers almost being a thing of the past and fax machines soon to be gone as well?

If it is I dont like it(newspapers are a great tradition) one bit. Waterside reps alot of natives childhood and further its a place were we would socialize and talk and laugh and joke and play. MacArthur may be the cause in my book. Whats the need for Waterside when theres a mall with a movie complex as well and many eateries!!! Lets hope they fix Waterside or replace it with a quality project that last for years to come ladies/gents!!! L.G.N.M

So empty, so ashame. The city can fix it!! The question is this. Will they???? L.G.N.M

Again, I do not see the correlation between the Center and waterside. Think about it, if it were a "mall", it would be too small to support a city, or a portion of the city. I do not think it was ever setup to be that. A few shops were thrown in that provided BS goods like tourist shirts and trinkets. And even if you can point out one retailer who provided any quality goods, it would only be one or two. I do believe however, that you are correct with the sign of the times; I just believe the city help with the process.

What is so depressing with that photo is, it has been like that for a while now, and the problem I see with it is how it NOW translates to after hours on the weekend. That is what bothers me the most.

[stillill]

I just hope the powers that be have a plan for waterside and we are being kept in the dark. If they could get a urban best buy and a target, keep outback and get a few other restaurants like pf chang's and maybe a legal seafood, then waterside might be rescued.

Oh, and keep hooter's too.

Edited January 25, 2010 by stillill

[urbanlife]

Again, I do not see the correlation between the Center and waterside. Think about it, if it were a "mall", it would be too small to support a city, or a portion of the city. I do not think it was ever setup to be that. A few shops were thrown in that provided BS goods like tourist shirts and trinkets. And even if you can point out one retailer who provided any quality goods, it would only be one or two. I do believe however, that you are correct with the sign of the times; I just believe the city help with the process.

What is so depressing with that photo is, it has been like that for a while now, and the problem I see with it is how it NOW translates to after hours on the weekend. That is what bothers me the most.

Shopping was never the point of the place when I was a kid. I remember going there because we were going to something along Waterside and we would go over to the Marketplace for food and fudge. Since the mall has opened, it seemed like there has been a need to turn Waterside into a nightclub hangout spot, when it should still be considered an actual marketplace. Someplace that you can wander around for food to eat and food to buy and take with you. Having the place act as a seafood market, with a mix of restaurants, and other small eateries, along with a few bars and pubs would be key. I dont think this is a good location for anything nightclub related because things like that should be spread out within the downtown and not a mall for nightclubs.

[usermel]

Good points guys. Urbanlife, I agree that they need to go back to the original FOCUS from day one. Family. I despise the night club/bar theme. It has brung a violent culture there because alcohol tends to equal drunk muscles. We can probably see a direct relation to the demise of Waterside to the change in the FOCUS of what it was meant to be for. The Fudgery was tradition in Norfolk and Waterside especially. After the Fudgery it lost a bit of magic to me. Making it a Marketplace as you said would be WISE! Not making it a place were craziness is the goal for money. Never been a fan of Julians and dont like going there at ALL.

That said Waterside needs to be a marketplace again and have a re-grandopening with some of what made it special and some new surprises. That place use to be packed. They need a marketing firm to direct that place in the right direction and that takes promotion and attracting visitors to remind them or introduce them to what makes a marketplace like Waterside special. Brikkman, your right they have to go back to what made Waterside special. I dont know how it fell so quickly from grace. I remember going there with my old lady and it was so packed, then all of sudden it was empty like in those picks varider took!!! WOW!! Just WOW!!!!L.G.N.M

[Sky06]

Some good points. Some not so good. We all need to understand that Waterside was successful early on because it was new and different. People had an option to that "same old mall in the burbs." It wasn't that things went downhill when the Fudgery or this or that left. The Fudgery and those other places of our "childhood" left after they started to see the newness, the excitement wearing off. What excited us at first no longer excited us. In fact, what was there originally was always destined to fail in my mind: cheap, overpriced clothing and specialty shops that just wouldn't cut it today. As for the changes that occurred later, the bars actually helped keep Waterside on life support for a long time. Whether you believe it or not, things would have been much worse if the city had not made the changes they made on the second level.

Simply returning to what it was at the start just isn't the answer. Having said that, simply having a bar scene isn't the answer either. I do like the idea of a large open-air, family-friendly market, with fresh seafood, fresh veggies and fruits, places to pick out what you want and eat right there. All while making it fun for beer drinkers too (we're not evil by the way). But regardless of what you put in Waterside, basic issues have to be addressed. Putting an ESPNZone might draw interest, but it will fail if no one feels comfortable or wants to bother going downtown. Someone mentioned doing something that will last for 50 years. The only way that will happen, instead of having to reinvent the place year after year, is to address these issues. What are they (please add others as you see fit):

(1) The look and feel needs to welcome you in. It can't be dark, dirty, or too plain. It needs a wow factor, and not necessarily the kind that costs tons of money. Some creativity would be nice. And kill the frickin' blue.

(2) The site somehow needs to feel and be better connected to the park and the rest of downtown. I like the idea of imploding the Waterside garage and replacing either with a 2nd building, connected by a wide, uncovered walkway, or with a mixed use development consisting of some residential. The garage is a wall between downtown and the waterfront. Extending Waterside toward the street and buidling a real sidewalk sounds like a possible solution. and why not a moving walkway?

(3) Connecting to downtown part 2. Walkways, running paths, etc. should provide for a continuous path all across DT, from Harbor Park, all the way to Freemason and beyond.

(4) Add here.

[brikkman]

Some good points. Some not so good. We all need to understand that Waterside was successful early on because it was new and different. People had an option to that "same old mall in the burbs." It wasn't that things went downhill when the Fudgery or this or that left. The Fudgery and those other places of our "childhood" left after they started to see the newness, the excitement wearing off. What excited us at first no longer excited us. In fact, what was there originally was always destined to fail in my mind: cheap, overpriced clothing and specialty shops that just wouldn't cut it today. As for the changes that occurred later, the bars actually helped keep Waterside on life support for a long time. Whether you believe it or not, things would have been much worse if the city had not made the changes they made on the second level.

Simply returning to what it was at the start just isn't the answer. Having said that, simply having a bar scene isn't the answer either. I do like the idea of a large open-air, family-friendly market, with fresh seafood, fresh veggies and fruits, places to pick out what you want and eat right there. All while making it fun for beer drinkers too (we're not evil by the way). But regardless of what you put in Waterside, basic issues have to be addressed. Putting an ESPNZone might draw interest, but it will fail if no one feels comfortable or wants to bother going downtown. Someone mentioned doing something that will last for 50 years. The only way that will happen, instead of having to reinvent the place year after year, is to address these issues. What are they (please add others as you see fit):

(1) The look and feel needs to welcome you in. It can't be dark, dirty, or too plain. It needs a wow factor, and not necessarily the kind that costs tons of money. Some creativity would be nice. And kill the frickin' blue.

(2) The site somehow needs to feel and be better connected to the park and the rest of downtown. I like the idea of imploding the Waterside garage and replacing either with a 2nd building, connected by a wide, uncovered walkway, or with a mixed use development consisting of some residential. The garage is a wall between downtown and the waterfront. Extending Waterside toward the street and buidling a real sidewalk sounds like a possible solution. and why not a moving walkway?

(3) Connecting to downtown part 2. Walkways, running paths, etc. should provide for a continuous path all across DT, from Harbor Park, all the way to Freemason and beyond.

(4) Add here.

I agree with everything you said there, and I mention some of that in previous replies, but I think me and you are the only one that agree with the bar notion and the fact that "newest" that it once was (waterside!!!!) is gone and probably can never come back. The structure of waterside prevents it from begin anything other than what we know waterside to be. And for those who have never been to its version in bmore, it’s the same dismal, stinking, un-inviteful place waterside is now, but it actually has people going there (probably because of the places to eat and the population). The only option for waterside is to tear it down and start again. It is basically a structure of painted steal and concrete. The bottom floor can not be softened in anyway because of how small it is. The only thing I tend to disagree with regarding people's idea is the seafood market blah blah. I guess I feel that way because it is disconnected from DT and will always be disconnected from DT because of the setup. The only way that would work is to soften the entire area and build some residential living in the area. It is just out of the way.....

[Norfolk4Life]

i dont think that it needs residential on site to be successful. it just needs something unique to be there. The only reason that the city let all the clubs move in is because there were few renters otherwise. I would also put money down that there have been few renters in recent years because of the clubs. It can still be made into something with out tearing down a perfectly good structure. When it was built, it was nothing like it is today. You could see the water from anywhere in the building. restaurants served right out onto the balconies. the balconies were not divided out either like hooters. if you put a few good local eateries in there, opened up the view once more, gave incentives to local shops to rent there, and have more frequent live music there, it would work again. it used to have all of that. once they built macarthur center and granby's eateries grew, the unique-ness of waterside faded. I do agree that it is kind of separated from the rest of downtown, but that just means that we need a few more stores and eateries on main st, etc. that area was built by combining urban buildings with a suburban single-use zoning code. that is why the "financial district" is dead at night.

[usermel]

You guysgals have covered what the issue is. The Macrthur center and the Granby street renewal with there eateries have taken strength from Waterside. And the two members that feel what its used to be is no more arent the only two who agree. I agree as well, just wishful thinking for those of us who were alive and remember how strong Waterside once was. Man it was strong. It can be turned around but, will take very strong promotion and planning that is organized and not thrown together. Its a good thing Waterside has issues now and a bad thing. The good means the Downtown is thriving more than it was over 10 years ago and is growing. The bad is that the place we went to that filled that void has suffered because of that renewal downtown. It will take eateries on a upscale basis to wrk there to attract a customer that wants a nice evening out ! Has to be on the level of Ruths Chris and no less. Maybe The Palm would work! And maybe if and this is a long shot shops like Gucci would draw heavy. I know many who shop online or drive to Major cities for upscale gear not sold in the malls. Yes, yes some Gucci is in the MALLS dont attack me but, I lived up north and all of it isnt in the stores locally like it is there.

If we had a straight Gucci shop in Waterside and maybe POLO and a Steve Madden shoe store for the ladies, etc it would draw. Ghent is down the street as well and a walk away. It would get locals from the seven cities going there to shop for special high priced items. Theres some things that can be done. May be dreaming(I am guys/gals I know dont laugh at me) but, just have to take a shot at it. I think we have the people here to keep the shops open if they come to Waterside. They need to change the type of place Waterside is with whats in it like they did with the clubs. The clubs kept me and plenty away while bringing others to the Waterside the former marketplace. The clubs were allowed there like the other members said because of rental space and the money was needed. Now they need better tenants because thats part why Julians or Jilians is leaving there losing customers because of the recent violence due to the clubs patrons and Waterside as a whole falling to its knees. Not blaming the clubs its the fault of the guilty patrons! L.G.N.M