Waterside District

[brikkman]

Clubs can work at waterside if it is setup right, Jillian’s, although it doesn't do well with it club scene is a good example of that. Places like epicenter in charlotte is a good way of mixing that up. Actually, that is a fantastic idea for waterside because I believe the concept severs all flavors and wants. Look, you can't have it completely "family" friendly or it will be what it is now, but thriving for a small window of time on the weekend? That will not work, they are not going to do the family friendly think like that through the week, and people have to work.

Crime wasn't high like people suggested at waterside, that was people blowing it up bigger than it really was. The bums took over, but that's what bums do, take over places that are not used often. The place stinks because the materials absorb the orders and big part of the covering is paint, and then repaint, then repaint. Try peeing on a floor, then covering it with regular paint. Waterside was trendy; the trend is up, now you have to look to something that is lasting and easily changeable like a mall, but not a mall. Or the other option would be to separate it out and position it a way that suits ALL goers.

I heard people say this sparingly, but it also needs to connect with the river, because honestly, a great view from all corners it is NOT. With that being said, make good use of what is not crummy…..

And, I will disagree to the day I die, but waterside was 90 percent a Food court….Can anyone remember what stores use to be upstairs before have a nice day café, bar Norfolk or Jillian’s? Betcha most of you can’t, I certainly do not, but we all know what the bottom floors was composed of (your right, Food court).

it with paint, and see what you get.

[usermel]

I feel you brikkman that clubs can work in Waterside sir. I agree. Im not debating you on that nor debating you at all my friend. HAHAHAHAHA! What Im saying is that thats not the base of how they should use the space. They need to aim at a higher income range instead of the easy buck. I agree 1000% that it can work if the did the club thing but, this area is full of folks that want a relaxed night out. Waterside use to provide that. Places we go and things we do are just like relationships with people once we get used to them we dont love them like we used to. What Waterside needs to do as other members have said is not be what it used to be completely but, provide a spark like what we need in relationships with our mates.

All that is new is most exciting. And what Waterside can use is a makeover that says they invite families and a certain type of customer there. Hiltop in the Va Beach has done this for years. There able to attract a certain type of customer to there shops and then also those they may/may not be aiming there biz at. Colley Avenue is a good example as well as a steady customer base. Yes, Waterside is inside but, if theres something thats liked in Norfolk and the whole metro we go to it. We will get there. That said, I agree a club can work in the Waterside I just think its a way to easily bring that place down further and not give it a rebirth and thats whats needed a fresh attraction that excites the locals from The Beach to Hampton and in Norfolk buddy. Great points by you as well. Great topic here!!! L.G.N.M

Edited February 6, 2010 by usermel

[brikkman]

i dont think that it needs residential on site to be successful. it just needs something unique to be there. The only reason that the city let all the clubs move in is because there were few renters otherwise. I would also put money down that there have been few renters in recent years because of the clubs. It can still be made into something with out tearing down a perfectly good structure. When it was built, it was nothing like it is today. You could see the water from anywhere in the building. restaurants served right out onto the balconies. the balconies were not divided out either like hooters. if you put a few good local eateries in there, opened up the view once more, gave incentives to local shops to rent there, and have more frequent live music there, it would work again. it used to have all of that. once they built macarthur center and granby's eateries grew, the unique-ness of waterside faded. I do agree that it is kind of separated from the rest of downtown, but that just means that we need a few more stores and eateries on main st, etc. that area was built by combining urban buildings with a suburban single-use zoning code. that is why the "financial district" is dead at night.

I agree, it does not need to have residential buildings surrounding the area in order for it to become successful again, I was merely stating that in referenced to the other ideas of market. Just seems like it would be out of the way for a person to just come to the market. Hah, maybe they should build a ramp for waterside drive and make dead end streets on the bottom connecting waterside to the street grid.

[ronsmytheiii]

City officials have finally set a timeline for deciding what to do with Waterside, the aging waterfront marketplace that decades ago helped spark the revival of downtown. During his state of the city address today at the Norfolk Waterside Marriott, Mayor Paul Fraim will announce plans for a 10-month-long effort to seek public input. The City Council will make a final decision on Waterside’s future early next year, he said.

The city has already begun mailing surveys to seek input on the ailing facility, he said. The surveys will also be on the city’s Web site (www.norfolk.gov) by Sunday and will be placed in libraries, mailed to civic leagues and sent to local churches. Fraim said two focus groups will be held this fall, followed by two public meetings that will also report the survey results.

With all the other projects happening, I wont be surprised if the planning process takes awhile.

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/02/watersides-future-will-be-decided-after-lots-public-input

[urbanlife]

With all the other projects happening, I wont be surprised if the planning process takes awhile.

http://hamptonroads.com/2010/02/watersides-future-will-be-decided-after-lots-public-input

this style of planning always takes forever because it is "we have no clue what we are doing so we need you to tell us what to do." They rarely work out because you either end up with very vague, positive ideas of how to vaguely better the city, or you get random ideas that would never work or make no sense at all. Reason being is they are probably asking the question of "what do you want there?" rather than "what does the city need there?"

The city would be much better off assembling a small team to investigate and research marketplaces from around the US and world, to get a better idea of what this one should be. Doing something like that would lead to a much more concrete idea of what would work best for the city than this process will.

I am betting that in 8 months of this, the city will realize it is back at square one again.

[ronsmytheiii]

this style of planning always takes forever because it is "we have no clue what we are doing so we need you to tell us what to do." They rarely work out because you either end up with very vague, positive ideas of how to vaguely better the city, or you get random ideas that would never work or make no sense at all. Reason being is they are probably asking the question of "what do you want there?" rather than "what does the city need there?"

The city would be much better off assembling a small team to investigate and research marketplaces from around the US and world, to get a better idea of what this one should be. Doing something like that would lead to a much more concrete idea of what would work best for the city than this process will.

I am betting that in 8 months of this, the city will realize it is back at square one again.

I wouldn't be surprised if this was simply a stall tactic. THe city has to pay for the light rial overruns, then it has the new library and the new courts building. So I think that this is merely a stall tactic

[Sky06]

The city would be much better off assembling a small team to investigate and research marketplaces from around the US and world, to get a better idea of what this one should be. Doing something like that would lead to a much more concrete idea of what would work best for the city than this process will.

Concur. Of course, there's nothing preventing UP'ers or DNC for submitting an unsolicited recommendation.

[VBIllini13]

this style of planning always takes forever because it is "we have no clue what we are doing so we need you to tell us what to do." They rarely work out because you either end up with very vague, positive ideas of how to vaguely better the city, or you get random ideas that would never work or make no sense at all. Reason being is they are probably asking the question of "what do you want there?" rather than "what does the city need there?"

The city would be much better off assembling a small team to investigate and research marketplaces from around the US and world, to get a better idea of what this one should be. Doing something like that would lead to a much more concrete idea of what would work best for the city than this process will.

I am betting that in 8 months of this, the city will realize it is back at square one again.

That "style of planning" is what makes urban planning and community development work hand in hand. Urban planners are servants to the population they serve. Why would you want to build something that the community doesn't want? So it will look nice, but doesn't get any use from the population? The City of Norfolk, like most planning departments in the US, use public input to help draft plans because if the planning department wants to make the city or area better, it needs to ask for public input. It's part of what makes this country great - democracy - the opportunity for citizens to tell their elected and unelected public officials what they want or don't want. Planners just can't go in saying "Here's what we're doing. We think it'll be better for you in the long run whether you like it or not, so just accept it." That's not a democracy, that's socialism.

[urbanlife]

That "style of planning" is what makes urban planning and community development work hand in hand. Urban planners are servants to the population they serve. Why would you want to build something that the community doesn't want? So it will look nice, but doesn't get any use from the population? The City of Norfolk, like most planning departments in the US, use public input to help draft plans because if the planning department wants to make the city or area better, it needs to ask for public input. It's part of what makes this country great - democracy - the opportunity for citizens to tell their elected and unelected public officials what they want or don't want. Planners just can't go in saying "Here's what we're doing. We think it'll be better for you in the long run whether you like it or not, so just accept it." That's not a democracy, that's socialism.

I am not arguing that, and I actually agree with what you are saying, but the way the city is doing this feels more like a stall tactic than it is an honest approach to urban planning. I could be wrong, but that is how this all feels to me right now...and I say that because I have seen stall tactics like this, as well as the "we have no clue what we are doing, so we hope we get an overload of vague feedback."

Often times these ask the public what they want walks a very fine line that could easily lead to something great or back to square one.

[VBIllini13]

I am not arguing that, and I actually agree with what you are saying, but the way the city is doing this feels more like a stall tactic than it is an honest approach to urban planning. I could be wrong, but that is how this all feels to me right now...and I say that because I have seen stall tactics like this, as well as the "we have no clue what we are doing, so we hope we get an overload of vague feedback."

Often times these ask the public what they want walks a very fine line that could easily lead to something great or back to square one.

I can agree with that. It definitely feels like that sometimes, especially because the city has 80+ plans for neighborhoods with very few actually implemented. I don't think it's necessarily a matter of whether or not the city knows what they're doing in this case because the planning managers are extremely experienced and have the right mind-set when it comes to planning and economic development.

I think I may have simply misunderstood what you were referring to in your earlier post. I know the city council of Suffolk a few years back, after getting elected, rezoned the entire city, making many citizens angry because their input was not valued. This led to many of the city council members voted out in the next election and much of the zoning changed back. I guess what's best when it comes to this sort of thing is a healthy mix of both tactics and not leaning too far toward one extreme of the other.

[rusthebuss]

The problem with it is its detached from downtown....it needs to be torn down and extend townpoint park

[urbanlife]

The problem with it is its detached from downtown....it needs to be torn down and extend townpoint park

I am not sure that is the best answer for what to do with it...though all and all, it isnt a bad answer either. It would increase the park space downtown...but there still is the issue of reconnecting the waterfront to downtown and making them work together, which this needs to be done regardless if Waterside is torn down or not.

[vaceltic]

I am not sure that is the best answer for what to do with it...though all and all, it isnt a bad answer either. It would increase the park space downtown...but there still is the issue of reconnecting the waterfront to downtown and making them work together, which this needs to be done regardless if Waterside is torn down or not.

I think they should close one of the cross-streets between BOA, NS, or the Marriott that actually connects to Waterside. Make the former street another pedestrian link to get people to walk ot Granby and MacArthur Mall. Waterside drive is a treacherous road to walk across. Make it more pedestrian friendly.

[mikeas]

I have been meaning to post this:

http://www.surveymonkey.com/s/Norfolk_waterside_survey

The city of Norfolk has a public survey out. Tell them what you want from Waterside.

[carolinaboy]

I'm kind of thinking....reduce the size of the building and remodel it into a similar looking building as proposed for the Light Rail station on the old Kirn site, to be used seasonally as a farmers market. Extend Town Point Park and have more open space. Kind of babbling here but just my idea.

[VBIllini13]

Here's what I think they should do. Get rid of Waterside's set-back. That absolutely kills it. Reduce Waterside Drive from a 4 lane road to a 2 lane road. Create a 4 way intersection along all parts of Waterside Drive (especially near the Dominion Tower. And going along with connecting all of the Waterfront, they need to get rid of the wall surrounding Nauticus and the Wisconsin. One of the things I love about Baltimore's waterfront is that all parts are accessible to everyone at all times of the day. I think it would really open up downtown.

[virginia pe]

they need to get rid of the wall surrounding Nauticus and the Wisconsin. One of the things I love about Baltimore's waterfront is that all parts are accessible to everyone at all times of the day. I think it would really open up downtown.

That wall is a flood wall. Without it, downtown could be flooded during a severe storm. Yes, it is unsightly, it blocks the view of the water, and isolates Nauticus from downtown, but it is necessary.

[VBIllini13]

That wall is a flood wall. Without it, downtown could be flooded during a severe storm. Yes, it is unsightly, it blocks the view of the water, and isolates Nauticus from downtown, but it is necessary.

Oh that's interesting I had no clue! I have now officially learned more on this forum today than I did all day in class. haha

[Sky06]

I took my survey.

[brikkman]

I'm kind of thinking....reduce the size of the building and remodel it into a similar looking building as proposed for the Light Rail station on the old Kirn site, to be used seasonally as a farmers market. Extend Town Point Park and have more open space. Kind of babbling here but just my idea.

??????????????

People actually think the size of our DT deserve and serves the need of a bigger DT park? I honestly think its the right size for our DT. This extention thing everyone keeps talking about throws me off a little and I have lived in this town my whole life.

[Telmnstr]

Oh that's interesting I had no clue! I have now officially learned more on this forum today than I did all day in class. haha

Generally anything THAT heavy isn't for decoration.

I can't imagine water behind it really being held back that much though, you'd think lots of water would seep under it and what not.

I've seen it closed with water up over the decking, though. I had to go all the way around to reach the last Virginia Wine Fest.

[burt]

While cable surfing tonight I ran across a program on New Jersey Public TV (Chanel 15 here in New York City) called "Global Harbors: A Waterfront Renaissance." It details how the the Baltimore harbor development has influenced similar success in waterfront cities around the World. Among those shown as successful examples are Sydney, Rotterdam, Long Beach AND Norfolk. So maybe you guys are better known and respected than you think!

Water is where it's at!

Check this website:

http://www.Globalharbors.org, then click Model for the World.

Edited March 13, 2010 by burt

[skylinefan]

While cable surfing tonight I ran across a program on New Jersey Public TV (Chanel 15 here in New York City) called "Global Harbors: A Waterfront Renaissance." It details how the the Baltimore harbor development has influenced similar success in waterfront cities around the World. Among those shown as successful examples are Sydney, Rotterdam, Long Beach AND Norfolk. So maybe you guys are better known and respected than you think!

Water is where it's at!

Check this website:

http://www.Globalharbors.org, then click Model for the World.

I saw the same program here in DC. Really made me appreciate how much Waterside has improved my hometown. I just hope the city doesn't do something stupid like tear down Waterside. I really don't think that is the answer.

[varider]

There's no doubt that Waterside transformed downtown Norfolk. But 30 years later, it's a dump.. and isn't transforming anything. It's served it's purpose.

[skylinefan]

There's no doubt that Waterside transformed downtown Norfolk. But 30 years later, it's a dump.. and isn't transforming anything. It's served it's purpose.

I do see your point Varider, but the answer is not tearing down a 26 year old facility. If you want to assign blame for the slow death of Waterside lay it at the feet of the city. The city created this mess let the city figure out a way to make Waterside viable again. I still like the idea of keeping the upstairs clubs, restaurants, and kind of sports pubs (Jillians) and opening up the downstairs to become some type of farmers market or flea market. I think the knee jerk thing to do is to tear down the facility that the city pumped so much investment in. I am happy that the city is taking its time and soliciting inputs from citizens. I wouldn't be surprised to see Waterside turned into some variation of what I imagined it should be.