Jump to content

Waterside District


umterp03

Recommended Posts

They should just leave it and let the GSA convert it to their space. That way an already dead zone can stay a dead zone and norfolk can have the granby tower site for future development.

Or, just tear the whole thing down and expand TPP.

Making an extension of the park is a super bad idea for a couple of reasons:

1. DT in of itself is not big enough to support nor has a need for a DT park of that size. The current size is perfect IMO.

2. The parking deck was essentially used to support the Sheraton and waterside thus rendering it virtually useless until festival season and any spirit boat rides.

3. The current park as it stands does not really function like a traditional park. No one really visits TPP own its own unless you are a resident. Additionally, what non-resident of DT would pay to park to just walk a park that isn't really setup like a traditional park?

I definitely think it should be torn down, that I will say without a doubt. If a portion of it remains, I do understand the historical need for that, but as it stands, it should be town down and these are reasons why:

1. I never thought waterside was really expandable. The concrete structure and the availability of space does not seem to support that type of undertaking although I know some developers are capable of doing so.

2. Norfolk is considerably larger than it once was and the current venue size does not support the needs and wants of the current size.

3. It has no real draw, although it is next to the Sheraton and the park, it really seems out of place. Instead of it being a possible extension of the Sheraton, its it own structure that really does not justify a reason why someone should pay for parking to visit.

4. Don't forget waterside drive, but besides that point, don't forget the fact that there is nothing in that area that would catch the random visitor in Norfolk.

Again, my suggestions around waterside have been pretty much the same. Technically, you could move it more towards the curve as urban suggested in the past, that would open it up considerably, but I opt to tear all or a portion down and build up a few flights. Some will disagree, but consider this. The views you get from waterside are not pristine (the views directly south). The views south west are much better as the views south of waterside is virtual shipyard. So actually, covering that particular direction up with a little height does not take away anything if you ask me. Expanding slightly upwards also adds uniqueness to the site, dynamics and much need expansion. Additionally, connecting it to the Sheraton and harbor park is a "big to do on my list". It is important to make that entire area something everyone wants to visit and can make a conscious decision to do so. And with the advent of LRT to harbor, the city should capitalize on that stop in addition to the possible future HUB everyone is talking about. And I do not mean just an walkable area, contract it out for something to be built. It is enough paid parking to support structures over there.

As for what should be in the new waterside...ummm just leave the mall like things out of it and it should do well. They should take this opportunity IMO to make a statement about Norfolk. Its really only 5 places to do that in Norfolk (Fort Norfolk, waterside, harbor park, st pauls quad, and Monticello open plot. I say start at waterside and make it an open, multi-use structure that supports different types of business and it has a unique flare about it. For the developer(s), I say urbanize all the things Norfolk is inherently missing, for instance, (urban) - 2play movie theater like cafe cenima, but more classy, bowling alley, sport bars, river front and marina restaurants, galley, a gathering space such as halls, open space,, horse betting (since its legal), possibly a rotating observatory?

Just some thoughts, we need something to bring us into the future, in fact, I may forward my rambling thoughts to the city manager.

Edited by brikkman
Link to comment
Share on other sites


Making an extension of the park is a super bad idea for a couple of reasons:

1. DT in of itself is not big enough to support nor has a need for a DT park of that size. The current size is perfect IMO.

2. The parking deck was essentially used to support the Sheraton and waterside thus rendering it virtually useless until festival season and any spirit boat rides.

3. The current park as it stands does not really function like a traditional park. No one really visits TPP own its own unless you are a resident. Additionally, what non-resident of DT would pay to park to just walk a park that isn't really setup like a traditional park?

I definitely think it should be torn down, that I will say without a doubt. If a portion of it remains, I do understand the historical need for that, but as it stands, it should be town down and these are reasons why:

1. I never thought waterside was really expandable. The concrete structure and the availability of space does not seem to support that type of undertaking although I know some developers are capable of doing so.

2. Norfolk is considerably larger than it once was and the current venue size does not support the needs and wants of the current size.

3. It has no real draw, although it is next to the Sheraton and the park, it really seems out of place. Instead of it being a possible extension of the Sheraton, its it own structure that really does not justify a reason why someone should pay for parking to visit.

4. Don't forget waterside drive, but besides that point, don't forget the fact that there is nothing in that area that would catch the random visitor in Norfolk.

Again, my suggestions around waterside have been pretty much the same. Technically, you could move it more towards the curve as urban suggested in the past, that would open it up considerably, but I opt to tear all or a portion down and build up a few flights. Some will disagree, but consider this. The views you get from waterside are not pristine (the views directly south). The views south west are much better as the views south of waterside is virtual shipyard. So actually, covering that particular direction up with a little height does not take away anything if you ask me. Expanding slightly upwards also adds uniqueness to the site, dynamics and much need expansion. Additionally, connecting it to the Sheraton and harbor park is a "big to do on my list". It is important to make that entire area something everyone wants to visit and can make a conscious decision to do so. And with the advent of LRT to harbor, the city should capitalize on that stop in addition to the possible future HUB everyone is talking about. And I do not mean just an walkable area, contract it out for something to be built. It is enough paid parking to support structures over there.

As for what should be in the new waterside...ummm just leave the mall like things out of it and it should do well. They should take this opportunity IMO to make a statement about Norfolk. Its really only 5 places to do that in Norfolk (Fort Norfolk, waterside, harbor park, st pauls quad, and Monticello open plot. I say start at waterside and make it an open, multi-use structure that supports different types of business and it has a unique flare about it. For the developer(s), I say urbanize all the things Norfolk is inherently missing, for instance, (urban) - 2play movie theater like cafe cenima, but more classy, bowling alley, sport bars, river front and marina restaurants, galley, a gathering space such as halls, open space,, horse betting (since its legal), possibly a rotating observatory?

Just some thoughts, we need something to bring us into the future, in fact, I may forward my rambling thoughts to the city manager.

I agree, the parking deck is essentially obsolete if the mall doesn't exist, and for the most part now it is obsolete anyway. The pedestrian bridge should be taken down along with the parking deck and some buildings should be put up in front of the Sheraton and Bank of America building. That way, Waterside Drive isn't just a dead zone for people to enter onto 264. That whole area truly lacks connectivity, so unless they start building on both sides of Waterside Dr. no matter what they do with Waterside it will be a dead zone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree, the parking deck is essentially obsolete if the mall doesn't exist, and for the most part now it is obsolete anyway. The pedestrian bridge should be taken down along with the parking deck and some buildings should be put up in front of the Sheraton and Bank of America building. That way, Waterside Drive isn't just a dead zone for people to enter onto 264. That whole area truly lacks connectivity, so unless they start building on both sides of Waterside Dr. no matter what they do with Waterside it will be a dead zone.

Oh yes, I have definitely said this before, Waterside needs some masterplan project to reconstruct an urban fabric along that street, even if most of the buildings are glorified commercial buildings and some office space and mixed space above it, large sidewalks with a reason to be walking on those sidewalks is important for Norfolk and would help add to a metropolitan city feel that would only benefit the city.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 4 months later...

770401.jpg

A local developer wants to transform the downtown waterfront to include a new conference center, two additional hotels, an office building, marina and seafood restaurant.

Harvey Lindsay Development, a Norfolk-based company, pitched their $200 million plans recently in response to a request for proposals to redevelop Waterside. Under the proposal, the dated and struggling Waterside facility would be a thing of the past, one local bank might expand its downtown presence and another firm would move its regional offices there.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/01/conference-center-marina-pitched-waterside

Wow

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's an odd design, but it kinda reminds me of the VB Convention Center. I've been a longtime supporter of making Waterside a Convention Center, similar to the Jacob Javitts Center in New York. There is one in Scope, but Waterside would be a fresher space, and has a view on the water. However, I was thinking more along the lines of an interior gutting of the building, not a complete overhaul.

Now, if only the city realizes Scope needs to go. :-P

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's an odd design, but it kinda reminds me of the VB Convention Center. I've been a longtime supporter of making Waterside a Convention Center, similar to the Jacob Javitts Center in New York. There is one in Scope, but Waterside would be a fresher space, and has a view on the water. However, I was thinking more along the lines of an interior gutting of the building, not a complete overhaul.

Now, if only the city realizes Scope needs to go. :-P

I will have to always disagree with you on that one, the Scope was designed by an amazing concrete architect who has only done a handful of building within the States, and somehow Norfolk managed to get one, it would be a slap in the face to true architecture by tearing down such a beautiful building for any short sighted views.

As for the proposal for the Waterfront, this is sort of what I was expecting to see, and always confused why this wasn't a target from the beginning because the waterfront is where you would think the city would want something like this....though I figured the city would just drag its feet until it finally just tore down the building to extend the park and call it good.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Screw the design, look at this description:

waterfront to include a new conference center, two additional hotels, an office building, marina and seafood restaurant.

Harvey Lindsay Development, a Norfolk-based company, pitched its $200 million plan recently in response to a request for proposals to redevelop Waterside. Under the proposal, the dated and struggling facility would be a thing of the past, one local bank might expand its downtown presence and another company would move its regional offices there.

Two hotels, an office tower and a corporate HQ? Expanded bank presence? If this is the price for losing the Westin I'll take it. This is exactly the type of development we've wined about for years, lol. I think design can be negotiated. As you all know, most of the projects that have come to fruition around here look nothing like their original design (which is both good and bad).

Not to mention, this leaked for a reason. Means this is the one proposal the city is seriously considering. Still interested in seeing the other proposals though.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I kind of like the London Eye type Ferris wheel. I'm not overly happy about the look, it looks like exposed scaffolding. Like they are trying to go with the VB convention center theme. Like vdogg said, it will probably look different once it's built. Keeping my fingers crossed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


I will have to always disagree with you on that one, the Scope was designed by an amazing concrete architect who has only done a handful of building within the States, and somehow Norfolk managed to get one, it would be a slap in the face to true architecture by tearing down such a beautiful building for any short sighted views.

As an architecture buff (especially athletic venues), I do agree, and shouldn't have said it needs to go. And honestly, if/when the city does decide to build a new arena, I hope they appreciate the beauty of Scope, and not try to alter the exterior. I know some cities have two arenas, and would love to see Norfolk keep both. Unfortunately, since The Ted gets quite a few big events, I don't know how Norfolk would use three basketball/concert arenas.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Screw the design, look at this description:

Two hotels, an office tower and a corporate HQ? Expanded bank presence? If this is the price for losing the Westin I'll take it. This is exactly the type of development we've wined about for years, lol. I think design can be negotiated. As you all know, most of the projects that have come to fruition around here look nothing like their original design (which is both good and bad).

Not to mention, this leaked for a reason. Means this is the one proposal the city is seriously considering. Still interested in seeing the other proposals though.

Biggest thing that has me excited is the possibility of a high line park like New York City:

Modeled after the High Line in New York City, the elevated walkway would connect Town Point Park across Waterside Drive and Main Street to the Slover Library on Plume Street. Illustrations depict the walkway with exhibits from the Chrysler Museum, Virginia Zoo and Norfolk Botanical Garden.

See these pictures from NYC:

ny-high-line-park-615.jpg

173_13.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I don't get the High Line Park description...unless they are talking about turning the walking path along the water into some sort of architectural path, but I don't see how that would be similar to the High Line.

I definitely need to see more of this project to understand what they are talking about.

I do have to agree though, having that much new development happen along the water would definitely be a good move for the city, even if it means losing Waterside.

As for the Scope, here in Portland we have two arenas, one for our NBA team, and one (that was the original Blazers home) that is more for the minor league hockey team. It would be interesting to see Norfolk restructure and renovate the area that the Scope sits on, keep it for more of an intimate thing, as well as use it to boost promotions for things, potentially things that could use multiple stadiums within a city. Unfotunately when the time comes, with Norfolk's track record, they will probably just tear the whole thing down and not think twice about what an amazing piece of architecture it is as well as how rare it is.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah, I don't get the High Line Park description...unless they are talking about turning the walking path along the water into some sort of architectural path, but I don't see how that would be similar to the High Line.

I definitely need to see more of this project to understand what they are talking about.

I do have to agree though, having that much new development happen along the water would definitely be a good move for the city, even if it means losing Waterside.

The print edition of the VP has a downtown map that makes it more clear.

post-16904-0-94658500-1326869685_thumb.j

Edited by virginia pe
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not to mention, this leaked for a reason. Means this is the one proposal the city is seriously considering. Still interested in seeing the other proposals though.

Not necessarily. It may have been released by the developer, trying to gain public support in order to influence City Manager Marcus Jones and his committee that will evaluate all of the proposals.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Not necessarily. It may have been released by the developer, trying to gain public support in order to influence City Manager Marcus Jones and his committee that will evaluate all of the proposals.

I love this project. It all sounds wonderful. However, the city cannot let them destroy part of the Selden Arcade. They juts can't do that. Everything else is great, why do they have to destroy a piece of the city's history.

I hope the office tower they proposed on the site of where the Hilton was supposed to go will be contextual,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I love this project. It all sounds wonderful. However, the city cannot let them destroy part of the Selden Arcade. They juts can't do that. Everything else is great, why do they have to destroy a piece of the city's history.

I hope the office tower they proposed on the site of where the Hilton was supposed to go will be contextual,

I agree. It would be nice to see some renderings of their ideas - their multiple ideas. The convention center image does look like a collection of sticks. :) It could just be a poor drawing but it makes me nervous. I do like the waterside location and actually appreciate that it's slightly disconnected from the rest of downtown. It's not going to ruin the character of the neighborhood - since their is none there. That's good. Convention centers are dead zones so might as well put it in a dead zone.

Link to comment
Share on other sites


While this sounds like an interesting plan there is plenty of space to build up without touching the Selden Arcade. Not getting behind that and I hope the city does the same.

The elevated walkway sounds like a pipe dream that would actually decrease street level foot traffic.

I'd like to see the other proposals as well...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

While this sounds like an interesting plan there is plenty of space to build up without touching the Selden Arcade. Not getting behind that and I hope the city does the same.

The elevated walkway sounds like a pipe dream that would actually decrease street level foot traffic.

I'd like to see the other proposals as well...

I lived in NY for 3 years and the highline was a fantastic addition to the city. Something like that in Norfolk would bring people downtown. It's a novelty. It's green space. It's something pleasant, IF it is done correctly.

I also really like the convention center. For something essentially built over the water, I want the view to be as unobstructed as possible form all angles. I think it is a fine design as rendered.

My only small complaint is that the article said the developer wanted to tear down part of the Selden Arcade. We already lost historic buildings off of Granby for a hotel and convention center that wasn't built, so why now do we have to lose ANOTHER piece for an office building given the land that is already there. The city needs to take a stand against that part.

I am also concerned with the additional parking they are requesting. I hope that goes into a hidden garage, and not some free standing garage near the convention center

Link to comment
Share on other sites

It's time to go big. This is a perfect project. The city wants (or has agreed to in the past) to build a Conference Center. Build it. Go all in. I believe the waterfront is a great location for the conference center and I like the design. Norfolk needs a large, unique structure like this. Plu sthe new hotels and office building are away from the water, more in teh downtown core and would create more urban density.

I like it. Do it Norfolk. We've been dreaming about this type of development for a few years now. I see no downside.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously we all agree that the idea of tearing down the Sheldon is a bad idea, which I fully agree. That is one building that should be protected and embraced by such a project. It would be interesting to see this "highline" like idea cut into the Sheldon on the side, giving people access to the Sheldon from different points and making it a centerpiece within all of this, it is definitely a building worth celebrating.

As for the "highline" proposal, I don't think the city has to worry too much about hurting the street level of those blocks because from what I remember, that street is basically a service street with no storefronts along the way, plus it would be a great way of connecting the Waterfront to the rest of the downtown in a very grand gesture kind of way.

I would want to see much more from this, but it would definitely be the kind of bold move the city really needs to bring itself together as well as creating a new urban park within the downtown.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Obviously we all agree that the idea of tearing down the Sheldon is a bad idea, which I fully agree. That is one building that should be protected and embraced by such a project. It would be interesting to see this "highline" like idea cut into the Sheldon on the side, giving people access to the Sheldon from different points and making it a centerpiece within all of this, it is definitely a building worth celebrating.

As for the "highline" proposal, I don't think the city has to worry too much about hurting the street level of those blocks because from what I remember, that street is basically a service street with no storefronts along the way, plus it would be a great way of connecting the Waterfront to the rest of the downtown in a very grand gesture kind of way.

I would want to see much more from this, but it would definitely be the kind of bold move the city really needs to bring itself together as well as creating a new urban park within the downtown.

I think the idea was to tear down part of the Selden Arcade for the new office tower they want to build. It it was to open it up to the Norfolk "high line" then I'll accept that, however, it sounded to me like a real estate grab, one I don't think Norfolk could afford to make when it comes to preserving some history.

Also, there is a statement in the article about the city paying for parking, which to me means parking garage. I want to know where it would be and it would HAVE to be hidden.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What the heck is a "high line"?

Do not destroy Selden Arcade.

A convention center on waterside property is a bad idea. There is a hotel that promised a convention center that has been in the making for ever, why not just build it there. There is also an open synder lot that I think people forget about as well that could fit that need. Leave waterside for Entertainment. as much as people talk about granby street and the partying, that is a good segregated area for just that purpose.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

What the heck is a "high line"?

Do not destroy Selden Arcade.

A convention center on waterside property is a bad idea. There is a hotel that promised a convention center that has been in the making for ever, why not just build it there. There is also an open synder lot that I think people forget about as well that could fit that need. Leave waterside for Entertainment. as much as people talk about granby street and the partying, that is a good segregated area for just that purpose.

Google the NYC High Line. You'll get a good idea of what it is. It's essentially an above ground park, and it was a huge success in NYC. Obviously the one proposed for Norfolk is on a much smaller scale, and chances are it won't be built even if this proposal is accepted. It makes no money, so unless the city paid for it which they wouldn't, it's more of a pie in the sky idea than anything else.

The plot of land originally proposed for the Hotel and Convention center has been stagnant for 2 years since they were supposed to start construction. I wouldn't hold out for that to ever happen. This project however would build and office tower in that vicinity with an already guaranteed anchor in Clark Nexsens who want's to move their office downtown. We would also get 2 more smaller hotels.

Waterside is just not working anymore. Yes, ideally it would be an entertainment venue but it's not. No one goes there, that's why it was proposed to be redeveloped in the first place. Also, why should all entertainment be segregated from the downtown core anyway.

A convention center on the water is a great idea, an don't forget the marina and restaurant also proposed.

But yes, nothing should happen to the Selden Arcade.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

That is sort of what happens when a small downtown, like Norfolk's, has a little mall that sits on the waterfront and then decides to build a much larger mall in the middle of downtown on a series of parking lots. Basically there was nothing to really differ itself from the new mall, thus rendering the old mall useless.

Plus with putting a small convention center on the water, it opens up the change for the city to make a grand presentation to its visitors, as well as still have the possibility of having restaurants along the waterside of the building.

But yeah, google High Line...or better yet, plan a trip up to NYC, the High Line is something you kind of have to witness in person to really see how awesome the project really is. Which it is basically a dead elevated rail line, which is something Norfolk doesn't have, so anything that the city would be doing would be constructing an elevated walkway from scratch, but it would better connect people from the Waterfront to the rest of downtown without having to cross Waterside Dr. But lets be honest here, this is Norfolk we are talking about, so that will probably never happen.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More proposals has surfaced:

http://hamptonroads....terside-surface

The Cordish Companies of Baltimore wants to give Waterside a $30 million makeover that would radically alter the building, but not raze it, according to officials who asked not to be identified because they are not authorized to release information.

Another proposal, from Virginia Beach developer John X. Aragona, would turn Waterside into a "beach music" center anchored by the Waterside Beach Club, a theater that would hold daily music concerts. Many performances would be broadcast on television, according to a copy of his proposal obtained by The Virginian-Pilot.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

By using this site you agree to our Terms of Use and Privacy Policy. We have placed cookies on your device to help make this website better. You can adjust your cookie settings, otherwise we'll assume you're okay to continue.