Waterside District

[BFG]

My thoughts are this...Cordish's plan is nice. Problem is, it's the same thing Waterside was in the 80s-90s, and again in the 2000s. What's going to be different this time around, and how do they plan to make it last more than 10 years? I've only been to Power Plant once or twice, but it came across as a strip mall that has a club atmosphere at night. Meh. The nightlife on Granby is nice...let's not try to make two competing locations in such a short radius.

Casino...zzzzz I've always found the idea cheesy, and although the revenue would probably be nice, I envision nothing but old folks stepping off of buses in between playing Bingo/watching "Wheel of Fortune". If Norfolk thinks this will turn them into the next Vegas, or even Atlantic City, then I don't know what to tell them. I see no more of a long range solution than I do with Waterside III.

Conference center...I was originally on board with the concept, until I realized no one uses the one in VB. Let's try to fill that one, or even the one next door at Half Moone.

The arena...unfortunately, no one can see the forest for the trees. Yes, it seems crazy to build an arena with no team in place. Until you realize the primary reason Norfolk has been passed over so many times is because...(wait for it), they don't have a venue. These NBA teams who want new arenas (Sacramento Kings for example) play in tiny, outdated arenas. BUT, they play in arenas that are NBA size. The Kings arena was built in the late-80s...why the hell would they come to Scope, half the size and nearly 20 years older? You put a nice 20K+ arena on the water in a market of comparable size to Sacramento and you immediately give this area leverage.

People say people don't support the Tides/Admirals, which is partially true. No, they're not filling Scope/Harbor Park on a regular basis, but both venues pull decent crowds. But to say that will translate to the big leagues is an apples/oranges comparison. Military crowd or not, you cannot use minor league attendance as precedent for how a region of 2 million people will support a pro team. I just have a hard time believing a team wouldn't pull in folks from HR/NC/Richmond, esp. when the Amtrak takes off later this year.

Not only that, the arena could pick up other events...college basketball tournaments (MEAC/CAA), and maybe even a few first round NCAA games. Not to mention more concerts featuring artists who find Scope obsolete. The only argument I could understand is traffic on Waterside drive would be a pain in the rear, which is why next to Harbor Park is probably more feasible. However, if Norfolk has any forward vision, they would take a chance on the arena, and not just play it safe with a plan that has a proven shelf life of about 10-12 years. They go with Cordish's plan, and I'm willing to bet $50 they'll be right back in this same conundrum in 10 years.

Place the arena there, and still build a smaller complex in and around Town Point Park. Take a look at Victory Plaza in Dallas for an idea of how it could work. It's where the Mavericks play, and it's an awesome setup.

[Stan Altura]

I just recently drove by Military Circle Mall and noticed how bad the are has declined. Here's an idea, how about razinging the mall and build the new arena there. The area would be revitalized with all the visitors coming to see regional NCAA/ACC Men's & Women's Basketball Tournament games. Plus the location will be along the light rail once it is continued towards the beach.

As for the Waterside Complex, the city should gut it and extend it towards the Harbor Park ballpark with boat piers down the length of it. Creating a long entertainment complex that can house venues such as ESPN Zone, CineBistro, Off-Track Betting Site, indoor kids park/playground, REI store, O'Connor's Local Bar and Restaurant, Dave & Buster's, Captain George's Seafood Restaurant, TCC/ODU/NSU Bookstore, etc. Think of it as Norfolk's own version of Virginia Beach's Boardwalk at the Oceanfront.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Stan Altura

[urbanlife]

My thoughts are this...Cordish's plan is nice. Problem is, it's the same thing Waterside was in the 80s-90s, and again in the 2000s. What's going to be different this time around, and how do they plan to make it last more than 10 years? I've only been to Power Plant once or twice, but it came across as a strip mall that has a club atmosphere at night. Meh. The nightlife on Granby is nice...let's not try to make two competing locations in such a short radius.

Casino...zzzzz I've always found the idea cheesy, and although the revenue would probably be nice, I envision nothing but old folks stepping off of buses in between playing Bingo/watching "Wheel of Fortune". If Norfolk thinks this will turn them into the next Vegas, or even Atlantic City, then I don't know what to tell them. I see no more of a long range solution than I do with Waterside III.

Conference center...I was originally on board with the concept, until I realized no one uses the one in VB. Let's try to fill that one, or even the one next door at Half Moone.

The arena...unfortunately, no one can see the forest for the trees. Yes, it seems crazy to build an arena with no team in place. Until you realize the primary reason Norfolk has been passed over so many times is because...(wait for it), they don't have a venue. These NBA teams who want new arenas (Sacramento Kings for example) play in tiny, outdated arenas. BUT, they play in arenas that are NBA size. The Kings arena was built in the late-80s...why the hell would they come to Scope, half the size and nearly 20 years older? You put a nice 20K+ arena on the water in a market of comparable size to Sacramento and you immediately give this area leverage.

People say people don't support the Tides/Admirals, which is partially true. No, they're not filling Scope/Harbor Park on a regular basis, but both venues pull decent crowds. But to say that will translate to the big leagues is an apples/oranges comparison. Military crowd or not, you cannot use minor league attendance as precedent for how a region of 2 million people will support a pro team. I just have a hard time believing a team wouldn't pull in folks from HR/NC/Richmond, esp. when the Amtrak takes off later this year.

Not only that, the arena could pick up other events...college basketball tournaments (MEAC/CAA), and maybe even a few first round NCAA games. Not to mention more concerts featuring artists who find Scope obsolete. The only argument I could understand is traffic on Waterside drive would be a pain in the rear, which is why next to Harbor Park is probably more feasible. However, if Norfolk has any forward vision, they would take a chance on the arena, and not just play it safe with a plan that has a proven shelf life of about 10-12 years. They go with Cordish's plan, and I'm willing to bet $50 they'll be right back in this same conundrum in 10 years.

Place the arena there, and still build a smaller complex in and around Town Point Park. Take a look at Victory Plaza in Dallas for an idea of how it could work. It's where the Mavericks play, and it's an awesome setup.

Well the difference would be that in 10 years the new version of Waterside would then be a private developer's problem to keep running strong and not the city's, thus getting them out of the market of having to deal with this property. So basically, they are looking at the best option for renovating the building, not costing the city any additional cost, and dumping the upkeep problem on someone else. Which is why the city will more than likely go with the Cordish idea.

I understand the need for a stadium of some sort, I personally think it is a waste of city money for any city to spend public money on a stadium unless it is to publicly own a pro team. If people who are rich enough want a pro team in Norfolk, then they should foot the bill for their rich man team.

Also, this site would be a horrible location for an arena because most cities that have an arena on their waterfront also have a highway cutting off their waterfront to the rest of the city therefore making it about the only location for a stadium. If any stadium is built in Norfolk, regional location should be key, someplace that can handle parking and traffic, and I have to agree with the new guy who just posted, Military Circle would probably be the best location regionally for any stadium option.

Also, I will always argue that the Scope should be preserved and a registered architectural building. The entire site doesn't need to be preserved, but the Scope should be. Also it can still be useful for a city to have into the future and just requires the space to be better thought out on how it should be used. Here in Portland, we still have two arenas, and both are here to stay, our minor league hockey team is investing in the old, smaller arena to make it their permanent home, which is something the Admirals could do as well, even if the area gets a new arena for a NBA team.

[carolinaboy]

My money is on the Harvey Lindsay proposal. I think Norfolk is (finally) beyond the idea of Waterside....and the other proposals are just Waterside re-dos.

The HL proposal actually brings something new to DT....a conference center, hotels (read occupancy tax money), an office building and corporate jobs (read people spending some money in DT).

Why would anyone build an arena of 22,000 seats without anyone to play in it? That proposal is totally unrealistic and absurd IMO. The site also doesn't seem big enough for an arena.

[Ghentite]

Regarding the proposals for Waterside, I actually like different elements of a few of them, though I have no clear favorite. But just so everyone realizes, the Harvey Lindsay proposal is talking about building into the Selden Arcade, not the Monticello Arcade. While both have been around a while, the Selden was actually renovated more recently and besides the entrance facade, you wouldn't even know that it's been around since the 30's. They've already done a pretty good job of erasing all evidence of that. Now, the Monticello, on the other hand, still has the original details and look to it. So when it comes down to it, if they are talking about altering a portion of the Selden arcade, at this point, who really cares? It's already been done.

Edited January 26, 2012 by Ghentite

[urbanlife]

Regarding the proposals for Waterside, I actually like different elements of a few of them, though I have no clear favorite. But just so everyone realizes, the Harvey Lindsay proposal is talking about building into the Selden Arcade, not the Monticello Arcade. While both have been around a while, the Selden was actually renovated more recently and besides the entrance facade, you wouldn't even know that it's been around since the 30's. They've already done a pretty good job of erasing all evidence of that. Now, the Monticello, on the other hand, still has the original details and look to it. So when it comes down to it, if they are talking about altering a portion of the Selden arcade, at this point, who really cares? It's already been done.

Altering is one thing, tearing down is a completely different thing. The issue everyone in here is having with the Selden is the idea of tearing it down, Norfolk doesn't need to lose any more of its history than it already has.

[mistermetaj]

My money is on the Harvey Lindsay proposal. I think Norfolk is (finally) beyond the idea of Waterside....and the other proposals are just Waterside re-dos.

The HL proposal actually brings something new to DT....a conference center, hotels (read occupancy tax money), an office building and corporate jobs (read people spending some money in DT).

Why would anyone build an arena of 22,000 seats without anyone to play in it? That proposal is totally unrealistic and absurd IMO. The site also doesn't seem big enough for an arena.

I agree with Urbanlife, that would be a terrible spot for a stadium. However, if that stadium idea were a realistic proposal, there is a huge plot of land off of a Tide stop right by Harbor Park. That is where a stadium belongs.

I doubt the developer had any real intention of building it though.

As for the Harvey Lindsay project, I like it the best by far for all the reasons listed above. What I don't like is the idea of the Selden Arcade being razed or the outside facade being altered in anyway. If the altercations are to a portion internally, while leaving the facade alone, then I'm ok with it.

Either way, I think we are wasting our time. Norfolk will go with the Cordish plan, keep Waterside the same and wash their hands of the situation. Thank the great "consultants" who tell them what they want for that one.

[Ghentite]

Altering is one thing, tearing down is a completely different thing. The issue everyone in here is having with the Selden is the idea of tearing it down, Norfolk doesn't need to lose any more of its history than it already has.

According to the Pilot, their not planning on tearing the whole thing down or razing it.

"Harvey Lindsay has proposed building the Clark Nexsen office building and a 120-room hotel partly on the proposed conference center site at Main and Granby streets. A portion of the adjacent city-owned Selden Arcade would be demolished, but much of the building would be incorporated into the office building, with room for artists to continue to display their work."

[Ghentite]

Either way, I think we are wasting our time. Norfolk will go with the Cordish plan, keep Waterside the same and wash their hands of the situation. Thank the great "consultants" who tell them what they want for that one.

I agree, they probably will go with that plan. I'm in favor of something bold like the Lindsay plan. However, I think the city definitely needs to take advantage of it's waterfront properties (Waterside, Harbor Park, Ft. Norfolk) and look into entertainment such as restaurants/bars/cafes on the water. I just don't know that Waterside Live is the way to do it. Maybe not so much at once where it's entertainment overkill and you're essentially creating a new entertainment district. That basically kills Granby. They've got to find a clever way to make a seamless transition from Granby to Waterside so they compliment eachother. That's going to be a challenge.

[carolinaboy]

Why can't Granby just become the "art and entertainment district"? Encourage that kind of development/land use there.

Let the waterfront and the couple blocks off of it be the "Conference Center and Hotel District".

Just because you have waterfront doesn't mean a gaggle of bars, nightclubs, restaurants, etc. HAS to be on it.

Too much "entertainment" there would have detimental effects on Granby....and too much "retail" there would have detrimental effects on Granby and MacArthur. I just don't see the logic of more of the same stuff that is a couple of blocks away.

But I digress.

[Ghentite]

Why can't Granby just become the "art and entertainment district"? Encourage that kind of development/land use there. Let the waterfront and the couple blocks off of it be the "Conference Center and Hotel District". Just because you have waterfront doesn't mean a gaggle of bars, nightclubs, restaurants, etc. HAS to be on it. Too much "entertainment" there would have detimental effects on Granby....and too much "retail" there would have detrimental effects on Granby and MacArthur. I just don't see the logic of more of the same stuff that is a couple of blocks away. But I digress.

I agree with you and am in favor of developing Granby, but Norfolk could use some restaurants to highlight one of it's great features that make it different from other cities, the waterfront. There are four restaurants on the water in all of Downtown Norfolk... Hooters, Joe's Crabshack, the Dockside in the Sheraton and Vintage Kitchen in Dominion Tower. Again, not saying I want to create a "gaggle of bars, nighclubs, and restaurants" which is what this Waterside Live seems to be, but it would be nice to have someplace where you can take out-of-towners on a nice day, enjoy the water and have a nice meal or beverage and feel like this it is truly unique to the city you live in, other than driving all the way to Virginia Beach or Oceanview. The city just needs to find a way for Granby and Waterside to compliment each other.

[zeppelin14]

In reference to the arena proposal, Waterside is not the place for it, however Norfolk needs a stadium better than Scope. I went to the Tool concert at Hampton Coliseum Friday night and that arena is so bad. Small bathrooms, even smaller concession stands, awkward seating, and bad acoustics. Hampton Roads needs a big arena. Period.

[BFG]

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/02/waterside-proposals-what-comes-next

Apparently, each developer is scheduled to present their proposals to city officials this week. The more I think about it, I'd much rather see the new arena near Harbor Park, with an entertainment complex built around it. The side street leading to that area makes much more sense traffic-wise, esp. with there being a Tide station right there.

The media guy in me loves the idea of Waterside being turned into a broadcast venue for concerts.

[brikkman]

I agree with you and am in favor of developing Granby, but Norfolk could use some restaurants to highlight one of it's great features that make it different from other cities, the waterfront. There are four restaurants on the water in all of Downtown Norfolk... Hooters, Joe's Crabshack, the Dockside in the Sheraton and Vintage Kitchen in Dominion Tower. Again, not saying I want to create a "gaggle of bars, nighclubs, and restaurants" which is what this Waterside Live seems to be, but it would be nice to have someplace where you can take out-of-towners on a nice day, enjoy the water and have a nice meal or beverage and feel like this it is truly unique to the city you live in, other than driving all the way to Virginia Beach or Oceanview. The city just needs to find a way for Granby and Waterside to compliment each other.

I personally see no need as that part of the waterside has the worst possible views. Its only a slither of the area worth looking at (ptown), the rest are ships need repair, not very senic if you ask me.

Again, the issue is that they are looking at a plot of land, rather than an area. One thing I like about chicago is, they leverage their water ways. Norfolk should consider that along the stretch of river between waterside and harbor. more specifically, the area between harbor park and berkely bridge. That should be inconjunction with the waterside makeover, or whatever it will become (more than likely, the cordish development).

None of these proposals work for those reasons about.

[Telmnstr]

In reference to the arena proposal, Waterside is not the place for it, however Norfolk needs a stadium better than Scope. I went to the Tool concert at Hampton Coliseum Friday night and that arena is so bad. Small bathrooms, even smaller concession stands, awkward seating, and bad acoustics. Hampton Roads needs a big arena. Period.

Forget redirecting taxpayer money to build huge stadiums for egotistical overpaid sports stars.

I didn't make it to Tool, but got text messages from friends the second the first laser fired off.

[BFG]

The Waterside proposal is down to 2.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/02/norfolk-winnows-waterside-ideas-two-finalists

Not surprisingly, the city is going with the "safe" plans. I think I'd rather see the Lindsay plan personally, but knowing Norfolk, they'll go with Cordish. Yawn.

[mistermetaj]

The Waterside proposal is down to 2.

http://hamptonroads....s-two-finalists

Not surprisingly, the city is going with the "safe" plans. I think I'd rather see the Lindsay plan personally, but knowing Norfolk, they'll go with Cordish. Yawn.

I hate reading quotes about residential "nostalgia" for waterside and really hearing about any community input at all. If these residents loved Waterside so much, maybe it wouldn't have tanked the way it did.

Cordish's plan is no different than what Waterside already is/was. I don't see what they will do any different. In 5 years when it tanks again as a restaurant and entertainment venue, they will leave and the city will be stuck with the same dead weight as they are now.

At least Harvey Lindsay's plan creates office buildings with guaranteed tenants (clark nexsens) and creates the convention center space the city has been pining for.

If the city were smart, they would try to let Cordish have waterside and let HL build on the empty Westin hotel lot...

Anyway, we'll probably get the Cordish plan. It seems to be the most probable result based on the city leader's quotes.

[atp4984]

I hate reading quotes about residential "nostalgia" for waterside and really hearing about any community input at all. If these residents loved Waterside so much, maybe it wouldn't have tanked the way it did.

Cordish's plan is no different than what Waterside already is/was. I don't see what they will do any different. In 5 years when it tanks again as a restaurant and entertainment venue, they will leave and the city will be stuck with the same dead weight as they are now.

At least Harvey Lindsay's plan creates office buildings with guaranteed tenants (clark nexsens) and creates the convention center space the city has been pining for.

If the city were smart, they would try to let Cordish have waterside and let HL build on the empty Westin hotel lot...

Anyway, we'll probably get the Cordish plan. It seems to be the most probable result based on the city leader's quotes.

I think Waterside would have been and could be more successful in its current or similar incarnation with a private business managing it. I think it failed because it wasn't run by professionals, not because there's no demand for food, drink, and entertainment with a nice view.

[BFG]

I'm willing to bet they'll go with Cordish because it's the cheaper option and as cookie-cutter as this concept sounds, people will still go to the restaurants. Now, if they get places exclusive to Hampton Roads, i.e. Planet Hollywood, Hard Rock Cafe, then I'm okay with it. Not in love with it, just okay with it. DT Norfolk needs a mix of locally-owned places (Granby/Ghent), but a few big names to balance it out may not hurt. Although I think Planet Hollywood lost its luster in the late-90s, I wouldn't necessarily complain.

But if we're talking places where I can just drive to Chesapeake or VB for (i.e. the Hooters, Outback, or Joe's there now), then I'm gonna say pass.

[urbanlife]

I'm willing to bet they'll go with Cordish because it's the cheaper option and as cookie-cutter as this concept sounds, people will still go to the restaurants. Now, if they get places exclusive to Hampton Roads, i.e. Planet Hollywood, Hard Rock Cafe, then I'm okay with it. Not in love with it, just okay with it. DT Norfolk needs a mix of locally-owned places (Granby/Ghent), but a few big names to balance it out may not hurt. Although I think Planet Hollywood lost its luster in the late-90s, I wouldn't necessarily complain.

But if we're talking places where I can just drive to Chesapeake or VB for (i.e. the Hooters, Outback, or Joe's there now), then I'm gonna say pass.

Yeah, I had a feeling they would go with this from the beginning because out of all the options it has the lowest risk and the least amount of new construction, it would basically be giving the current building a facelift. I do agree with you, having a private company doing the running and hopefully bringing in chains that are not in Hampton Roads (which I personally hate chains, but Cordish is a chains kind company) will probably help with the success of this project.

[brikkman]

Yeah, I had a feeling they would go with this from the beginning because out of all the options it has the lowest risk and the least amount of new construction, it would basically be giving the current building a facelift. I do agree with you, having a private company doing the running and hopefully bringing in chains that are not in Hampton Roads (which I personally hate chains, but Cordish is a chains kind company) will probably help with the success of this project.

the only thing I like is the lights, aside from that, I'm not hopeful at all. It will do the same when it was first built unless they manage to keep it entertaining. It would be nice to add a bowling alley and/or skating rink to the mix, it will give it more appeal in my opinon. I'm not sold on eating and music...

[mistermetaj]

the only thing I like is the lights, aside from that, I'm not hopeful at all. It will do the same when it was first built unless they manage to keep it entertaining. It would be nice to add a bowling alley and/or skating rink to the mix, it will give it more appeal in my opinon. I'm not sold on eating and music...

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/03/history-stake-norfolk-weighs-waterside-options

Shock of the world...Burefoot does not support the HL proposal of tearing down waterside. Also conservationists want to keep waterside for some ridiculous reason....at least Fraim seems to be more open to change and opportunity to reinvent Norfolk.

I do hope a compromise could be facilitated if by some miracle the HL proposal is selected to no hurt the Selden Arcade.

Also the article says that HL doesnt use the Decker facade which was demolished and in storage however last I checked the facade wasnt going to be used by the Westin either so whats the difference.

I hope we are all prepared to love the Cordish proposal...

[Ghentite]

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/03/history-stake-norfolk-weighs-waterside-options Shock of the world...Burefoot does not support the HL proposal of tearing down waterside. Also conservationists want to keep waterside for some ridiculous reason....at least Fraim seems to be more open to change and opportunity to reinvent Norfolk. I do hope a compromise could be facilitated if by some miracle the HL proposal is selected to no hurt the Selden Arcade. Also the article says that HL doesnt use the Decker facade which was demolished and in storage however last I checked the facade wasnt going to be used by the Westin either so whats the difference. I hope we are all prepared to love the Cordish proposal...

I'm with you. I want a modified version of HL proposal. It's a game changer and from the looks of it, it's the best option for allowing Granby to transition smoothly to Waterside. Another Waterside is not the answer. I'll be tuning in online for the briefing later. Hopefully more details are released. A good thing to note, during the last City Council meeting, Marcus Jones stated that each company has indicated flexibility on their projects.

[brikkman]

I want to go to the thing they are having tonight, but its only fluff, other topics will come up, it will be a nightmare when they start shutting down citizens thoughts. No point of it all if you ask me.But it will be another year before anything is done, so be it.

Not that I think citizens make the best choice for anything as most of us are only concerned with what something will do for us, but maybe they should hear some these people today. The consultants they continue to hire are a joke and the city is not able to make a decision that seems to work when it comes to economic growth or anything that has to do with entertainment in the city. They are completely LOST. Every decision they seem to make around it is a bad one. I'm starting to realize, it takes 12 bad decisions before this council can turn out ONE good decision.

[mistermetaj]

http://hamptonroads....folks-waterside

The HL project would completely reinvent downtown Norfolk, plain and simple. A highline modeled after the one in NYC would be a dream for Norfolk and would be a GREAT way to invite people to the waterfront. At the waterfront they would meet a new marina, convention center, and ferris wheel. We would also get an expanded bank presence and the new headquarters for Clark Nexsens. it's like a dream come true for the downtown area. They would also keep the facade of the Selden Arcade.

For $76 million, the city would get a new hotel, new office tower, new convention center, new highline, new ferris wheel more downtown workers...I mean, they would get a brand new downtown...I don't see how the city could pass up on such a deal, I really don't...PLEASE make the right decision city of Norfolk...

Edited March 7, 2012 by mistermetaj