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Waterside District


umterp03

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And a further question, seeing that Waterside is a blatant ripoff of the one up in Baltimore (to the point where they hired the same people to do this one), I am curious what they are doing with theirs up in Baltimore and if they are doing something successful with theirs, then I say it should move more in that direction.

Harborplace is in an ideal location. It has the National Aquarium to one side, the Baltimore convention center on another, and office buildings across the street. It is three buildings: 2 pavilions that look like Waterside and 1 complex within an office/hotel building across the street. The pavilions are like how Waterside used to be: tourist shops, a food court, and restaurants such as Cheesecake, Hooters, and Philips (which I believe is no longer at Waterside). The complex has stores you find at MacArthur such as Banana Republic and Coach.

The reason I'm so quick to turn my back on Waterside is that it is isolated. It is cut off from downtown by a 6-lane thoroughfare, which in itself isn't a problem, but the wall of parking is. If the Marriott and downtown office buildings opened onto Waterside Drive instead of Main, then Waterside would be fine. It is even cut-off from Town Pointe Park and Nauticus by the Spirit of Norfolk Basin. And the ice rink has moved to MacArthur Center. The center of downtown, both commercial and residential, is moving away from the waterfront.

Thinking about it: Norfolk could've saved lots of money if it converted Waterside into Nauticus or into the cruise ship terminal. Maybe use it to enlarge Waterside Convention Center.

The plight of Waterside is similar to Shoreline Village in Long Beach, CA in its disconent from downtown. Shoreline Village was tetering on collapse, but has come back. The big difference is that Shoreline Village is next to a rebuilt 1,800 slip marina and a new entertainment complex although it is a couple blocks from the main downtown area. Building Waterside marina into a much larger marina would help generate some traffic but I'm not sure if even that would be enough.

Edited by hoobo
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I think the point of the article wasn't about a lack of crowds at night, the bars and clubs will always draw some type of crowd, but that during the day, and Sunday through Thursday, there isn't much traffic in the place. My suggestion for national chains was for retail, intice a traffic-drawing retailer with space and a fantastic rent deal, then give them the freedom to turn the space however they'd like, open it up to the street or the boardwalk.

I think one thing that would help was the idea of extending Granby St to Waterside Drive; has that idea made anymore headway or is the pedestrian stoplight the culmination of that idea?

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Whatever, this attitude is what hurts Waterside, Granby Street, and everything else around here. And nothing you do, nothing you bring in, will change that.

Actually, Granby street is doing just fine. It's the shift in emphasis towards Granby as an entertainment district which is hurting watersides appeal.

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The wannabee Seattle Pike's Place fish/farmers market idea is the best by far. This region is supposedly known for Seafood being directly on the Bay and with easy access to rural areas, we could actually have a rather nice selection of both fish and produce overall. The VA beach farmers market is relatively successful, but pretty far and the addition of good seafood would benefit the overall appeal amazingly. You could potentially expand this to also have a large butcher and bakery and call it the Waterside Organic Marketplace. Add a few coffehouses and maybe organic restaurants and it would make the building very cohesive and attractive to a visitor. It would fill a niche that I think this area lacks.

Right now, if you arent going to eat at Hooters, you really dont go there. I live in Ghent and when I go downtown, I NEVER go to the waterside. Its very touristy (and not good touristy) and with an overall lack of tourists in Norfolk, that kind of instillation isnt necessary. The organic craze is hugely popular across the states right now, although it hasnt really seen much of a bump in this region yet. I feel that people will come to a destination if it is more cohesive. Right now, there is no reason to visit the waterside, per se. Granted Ghent would be a more ideal area for something like this, but fishmarkets need to be on water and it has better access to parking/highway.

Alternate idea:

The food court should at least be gutted/replaced with a skatepark downstairs and keep the chain restaurants upstairs. Its still fairly attractive with the outdoor seating on the water.

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I remember how bustling Waterside when I was younger (early/mid '90s). The Fudgery was there, which was always my favorite highlight of going, as well as live music, clowns with balloons, and other performers. This may have been mainly during festivals, but I do have to agree that it's seen better days. It's definitely in need of a major renovation. I envision tying Waterside, Town Point Park, and Nauticus all together to create a cohesive waterfront attraction. Maybe something comparable to Pier 39 in San Francisco but not as blatantly "touristy." Nauticus could use an upgrade itself. I think it should be transformed into a premier aquarium for the area (although the one in Virginia Beach is a very nice). More bars aren't the answer in my opinion. The area has plenty of bars if people want to go out for a drink. What Hampton Roads lacks is things to do, especially for locals, and ESPECIALLY during the winter months. We need less restaurants/bars and more attractions. Though adding a Hard Rock Cafe wouldn't hurt... I think the renovation of the entire property should have plenty of lights and pizazz (this part of downtown looks pretty dead at night).

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How about a condo conversion. Just kidding. Maybe downtown just can't support two malls, and that's fine. It seems like a building that should be saved one way or another, but I like the idea of more green space too. Not many malls, if any, age well and Waterside is no exception. With such a prominate location it really should be more spectacular. Maybe it would make a decent convention center.

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I remember how bustling Waterside when I was younger (early/mid '90s). The Fudgery was there, which was always my favorite highlight of going, as well as live music, clowns with balloons, and other performers. This may have been mainly during festivals, but I do have to agree that it's seen better days. It's definitely in need of a major renovation. I envision tying Waterside, Town Point Park, and Nauticus all together to create a cohesive waterfront attraction. Maybe something comparable to Pier 39 in San Francisco but not as blatantly "touristy." Nauticus could use an upgrade itself. I think it should be transformed into a premier aquarium for the area (although the one in Virginia Beach is a very nice). More bars aren't the answer in my opinion. The area has plenty of bars if people want to go out for a drink. What Hampton Roads lacks is things to do, especially for locals, and ESPECIALLY during the winter months. We need less restaurants/bars and more attractions. Though adding a Hard Rock Cafe wouldn't hurt... I think the renovation of the entire property should have plenty of lights and pizazz (this part of downtown looks pretty dead at night).

you and me are roughly in the same boat, I remember downtown norfolk when I was a kid in the 80's. I remember the only time you went away from the waterside was to find parking. The best thing to happen for Norfolk was MacArthur (granted I am against breaking up the street grid for a giant mall), but now norfolk must deal with the success of the new mall and the new development happening within the center of downtown. Is this a bad thing? No, this is just a problem the city has never had to deal with.

Ideally a farmers/seafood market would be a great idea. It is long past time to bring back the one that use to be where the west end of MacArthur is now. (granted that building was torn down long before anyone thought of MacArthur). The 6 lane road isnt as much of a problem as one thinks. The idea of waterside as well as the whole park is to be more for the locals that live there, currently the new residents of the downtown see that area as a tourist trap and like the locals of VB, they stay far away from there. Problem is, so do most of the tourists. Filling the place with things that workers and residents in Norfolk would like to do would be much more profitable.

To some extent, the building would make a great location for a convention center for the city, but lets stick to the hotel tower thing that the city will hopefully get. Would also be nice to see the Sheraton closed down and rebuilt into condos and apartments on the waterfront (never going to happen). A redesign of the first floor to open it up, a section of it dedicated to local farmers and fishermen, a mix of local and chain restaurants as well as nightlife, an element that either blends with the seasons or a permanent ice skating rink within it. There is alot of simple gestures that could be done, but I think right now it now it needs to be something that meets the needs of the locals that are living downtown and in its inner neighborhoods. Because Waterside would be a great date spot to go to for the city that can easily showcase the prestige and beauty of the city the same way a top floor restaurant can.

It is definitely time to look at Waterside and the area around the scope differently. Which on a side note, I do hope the Scope survives because the architect/engineer who designed that is probably one of the greatest designers in concrete and Norfolk was lucky enough to score one of his buildings. The shell of the Scope is self supporting and the inner parts to the building could be hollowed out and dug deeper for more seating (provided the water level could be dealt with). Just a few random thoughts for you guys.

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  • 2 weeks later...
  • 1 month later...

I can not support tearing waterside down, however, I think they need to do something. Condo's no, office tower no, expanding it to the street and extending it upward, YES. I think Jillians has an awesome setup, actually I wish it could be bigger (on a true Dave and Buster's Scale). I understand the concerns of the bars but the crime issue I am just not seeing what everyone else is seeing, unless you are grouping drunks into the same category. Granted, I don't visit often but who on the board does????

I personally like waterside for what it is, but the food market stinks. Its damp, covered with paint and it doesn't smell fresh in the building at all.

I did take notice to one comment on the article "No one wants to do business in Norfolk", how true is that.....? We can't seem to find the perfect mesh of entertainment, business, and living......

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I honestly think Waterside has become the Pembroke Mall of Norfolk. In my mind, you'll never change my perception of the mall regardless of the amount of renovation or improvement you do unless it is torn down. I know many other people feel the same way, it just has a bad stigma associated with it. Unfortunately, somtimes you need a fresh start to reach full potential. I think there's a great opportunity for mixed use at Waterside and expand on the public space. For Norfolk to be more vibrant in areas outside of Granby, you need to create more pedestrian traffic during all hours of the day and not just at night with the bars in Waterside. It needs to be a 24 hours destination and not just a 9pm - 2am destination. I think the city can find the right mix of office, residential, and park space to the current location. In my opinion, Waterside just needs to go.

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If they don't tear it down,which I hope they do.They should at least do something different with the design of the building.I think it's really low rise and bland for such a visible piece of waterfront property.I would much rather have a beautiful mixed use development there,No condos though.

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I can not support tearing waterside down, however, I think they need to do something. Condo's no, office tower no, expanding it to the street and extending it upward, YES. I think Jillians has an awesome setup, actually I wish it could be bigger (on a true Dave and Buster's Scale). I understand the concerns of the bars but the crime issue I am just not seeing what everyone else is seeing, unless you are grouping drunks into the same category. Granted, I don't visit often but who on the board does????

I personally like waterside for what it is, but the food market stinks. Its damp, covered with paint and it doesn't smell fresh in the building at all.

I did take notice to one comment on the article "No one wants to do business in Norfolk", how true is that.....? We can't seem to find the perfect mesh of entertainment, business, and living......

I agree. And for once, I agree with the City Manager. This should be a PUBLIC space. So what if we get a big hotel? Or a tall tower? Or anything else? The only thing that makes sense is to have something that brings people downtown. And none of those other proposals do that. Waterside is designed just for that. Yes, it needs a redesign and cleaning / brightening up, but the pieces are there. I hope that once Town Point Park is redone, it will help as well. Consider that fact last week (with tens of thousands of people at the Beer Fest), I overheard many people say, "Let;s go to Waterside instead of waiting in line to get into the park." What will they say if Waterside is torn down? "Let's go sit on the bench in front of the bank and watch people have a good time"?

Although it will never happen, I think it would be a great place for a casino.

You know, I'd like to see that too. But it's not going to happen. Lawmakers from Hampton Roads worked together a few years back to bring riverboat gambling to this area, but the rest of the state (which would not see the benefits we would) said no. And they'd say it again.

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I honestly think Waterside has become the Pembroke Mall of Norfolk. In my mind, you'll never change my perception of the mall regardless of the amount of renovation or improvement you do unless it is torn down. I know many other people feel the same way, it just has a bad stigma associated with it. Unfortunately, somtimes you need a fresh start to reach full potential. I think there's a great opportunity for mixed use at Waterside and expand on the public space. For Norfolk to be more vibrant in areas outside of Granby, you need to create more pedestrian traffic during all hours of the day and not just at night with the bars in Waterside. It needs to be a 24 hours destination and not just a 9pm - 2am destination. I think the city can find the right mix of office, residential, and park space to the current location. In my opinion, Waterside just needs to go.

What exactly is that bad stigma? I don't see it and I don't hear about it. The building may be dark and dingy, but that's nothing that can't be fixed.

I do completely agree with your comments on pedestrian traffic.

Edited by Sky06
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I can not support tearing waterside down, however, I think they need to do something. Condo's no, office tower no, expanding it to the street and extending it upward, YES. I think Jillians has an awesome setup, actually I wish it could be bigger (on a true Dave and Buster's Scale). I understand the concerns of the bars but the crime issue I am just not seeing what everyone else is seeing, unless you are grouping drunks into the same category. Granted, I don't visit often but who on the board does????

I personally like waterside for what it is, but the food market stinks. Its damp, covered with paint and it doesn't smell fresh in the building at all.

I did take notice to one comment on the article "No one wants to do business in Norfolk", how true is that.....? We can't seem to find the perfect mesh of entertainment, business, and living......

I agree with you to an extent but something needs to be done. First, Waterside isn't family oriented like it used to be. Clubs are great for downtown and they bring more life to downtown, but shouldn't really be in waterside. They would work better on Granby street and could fill up some of those many vacancies on Granby. Waterside used to have more quality retail shops, Pierce's BBQ, ice cream shops, a much better food court area, Rocky Mountain fudge shop and some seafood place. Second, the place looks old both with the interior and exterior. It needs renovating badly. Third, by the facility not being family oriented, it deters some from coming in. Sometimes the facilty (with its clubs, vacancies, run down look, etc.) attracts an unsavory element that turns people off. You don't want to deter the family oriented element who will actually spend money in the facility. Fourth, the place smells. It need some airing out and airfreshening badly. I also think having some chain restaurants are great for downtown, especially that part because people who are visiting know and are used to chains...plus remember Waterside has the only Joe's Crab Shack and Outback in Norfolk so it would bring chains closer to Norfolk and downtown P-town residents instead of having to drive far out to the suburbs but they alone are not enough to keep the facility going. What the city leadership need to do is step up and think outside the box. Condos are really not needed in that area because of the economy. Maybe some condos on top of the facility but I would have that area as an entertainment attraction for the area. It needs to stand out from Granby Street and MacArthur so the entire area of Norfolk will have high foot traffic. Oh and a true Dave and Buster's would be great. Maybe some upscale chains that are not in the area would do it some justice...like Hard Rock Cafe, Maggianno's or something like that. Mom and Pop stores are good but they alone will not draw in the foot traffic that downtown needs...you know the heavy foot traffic that Va Beach Town Center obtains due to their unique to the area upscale restaurants. Waterside needs to be a place that both locals and tourists would visit.

And as far as nobody doesn't want to do business in Norfolk...that is somewhat true. Norfolk isn't as attractive to Va Beach to some companies due to their lack of developable land, high leases, higher crime rate, lower income and reputation...why do business in Norfolk when you could do it in Va Beach with probably more volume and a better lease...plus our city is just not as attractive as Va Beach, but remember Va Beach is a resort area.

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And as far as nobody doesn't want to do business in Norfolk...that is somewhat true. Norfolk isn't as attractive to Va Beach to some companies due to their lack of developable land, high leases, higher crime rate, lower income and reputation...why do business in Norfolk when you could do it in Va Beach with probably more volume and a better lease...plus our city is just not as attractive as Va Beach, but remember Va Beach is a resort area.

I am guessing this is still an issue. I remember when I use to live in VB and when I was selling my condo before moving west, I had to go downtown to sign some papers and the woman offered to fax it over to their VB office. I declined and went downtown. She said I was one of the few VB residents they have dealt with that was willing to go downtown to do business with them. That was one of those things that always annoyed me about VB locals.

As for Waterside, I remember back when my parents would take me there when I was a kid, it was about the only thing to do downtown, of course at that time half of downtown was still a parking lot. Waterside would be a good incubator for local businesses. Room could be made for a seafood/farmer's market. The clubs would have to go, there are plenty of vacant buildings that could be converted into clubs throughout downtown and just north of Brambleton. A small hotel, an office building, or condo project could be incorporated depending on market. There needs to be a readdressing of the building on how it interacts with the road and the boardwalk as well as Town Point Park.

Of course funny thing is this movement for a new convention center downtown with the Hilton and now possibly Westin, this would of been a great location to construct a hotel tower and renovate Waterside into a convention center.

The most important thing to think about Waterside now is how will it serve the residents of Norfolk best, from that the residents in the neighboring cities will be willing to visit it.

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I agree with you to an extent but something needs to be done. First, Waterside isn't family oriented like it used to be. Clubs are great for downtown and they bring more life to downtown, but shouldn't really be in waterside. They would work better on Granby street and could fill up some of those many vacancies on Granby. Waterside used to have more quality retail shops, Pierce's BBQ, ice cream shops, a much better food court area, Rocky Mountain fudge shop and some seafood place. Second, the place looks old both with the interior and exterior. It needs renovating badly. Third, by the facility not being family oriented, it deters some from coming in. Sometimes the facilty (with its clubs, vacancies, run down look, etc.) attracts an unsavory element that turns people off. You don't want to deter the family oriented element who will actually spend money in the facility. Fourth, the place smells. It need some airing out and airfreshening badly. I also think having some chain restaurants are great for downtown, especially that part because people who are visiting know and are used to chains...plus remember Waterside has the only Joe's Crab Shack and Outback in Norfolk so it would bring chains closer to Norfolk and downtown P-town residents instead of having to drive far out to the suburbs but they alone are not enough to keep the facility going. What the city leadership need to do is step up and think outside the box. Condos are really not needed in that area because of the economy. Maybe some condos on top of the facility but I would have that area as an entertainment attraction for the area. It needs to stand out from Granby Street and MacArthur so the entire area of Norfolk will have high foot traffic. Oh and a true Dave and Buster's would be great. Maybe some upscale chains that are not in the area would do it some justice...like Hard Rock Cafe, Maggianno's or something like that. Mom and Pop stores are good but they alone will not draw in the foot traffic that downtown needs...you know the heavy foot traffic that Va Beach Town Center obtains due to their unique to the area upscale restaurants. Waterside needs to be a place that both locals and tourists would visit.

And as far as nobody doesn't want to do business in Norfolk...that is somewhat true. Norfolk isn't as attractive to Va Beach to some companies due to their lack of developable land, high leases, higher crime rate, lower income and reputation...why do business in Norfolk when you could do it in Va Beach with probably more volume and a better lease...plus our city is just not as attractive as Va Beach, but remember Va Beach is a resort area.

That would be an excellent location for a hardrock, Dave and busters, joes, and outback. Add a little entertainment to create a friendly atmosphere between venues and there you have it. Like you said, it isn't family oriented and that section of town definitely needs to be held for the people. See the problem with Granby Street is upstairs condo's. They don't want bars and/or clubs underneath them (I believe we had this conversation before), of course the solution to that is the st. Pauls area which appears to be a flat idea. Leases are too freaking high (again, before the Brazilian place, 12grand a month rent) on Granby to get people started. Mom and Pop restaurants would work on Granby in the surrounding areas if the leases were not so high (greed at its best). You can't open a place, make them pay 12 grand rents a month and expect people to just POUR into your new place. Often, that takes time for people to pass the word or even just know its there and what it offers.

I drove past the Marriott this morning and notice the shops across from it. Non of those shops encourage any foot traffic. They have a tour place (which is necessary) and other city type shops that no one would visit. They should be relocated or at least be broken up. I think the arcade is another unique place in Norfolk, but its been left to flat art. Now its great if you enjoy art in that way however, it is dead in there 90 percent of the time. The street behind that is dead too, a bunch of closed shops. I mention this because these are some good areas/locations that lead up to waterside and just flat or vacant probably mostly due to high leases.

People should want to do business in Norfolk but they do not want to because it is not worth it. Leasing companies are going to charge you out the "wazoo" because they think Norfolk is hitting when they are really just staggering it. They need to come up with more creative leases especially if they think it can have some type of impact.

Edited by brikkman
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I think what Waterside needs is a concept/identity that it can stick with. I feel that right now (err, 4 years ago the last time I went in there), it's hosting whatever it can get (clubs/bars, a couple of restaurants, a couple of shops, and a food court). I think Waterside could become a major activity center again if it BECOMES something. It could become a place for tourist-catering mega food/bar chains like Hard Rock, Planet Hollywood, ESPN Zone, Fox Sports Grill, etc. Think Baltimore Power Plant. Of course the place would have to see a major overhaul before it could attract such tenants. Or we could tear the walls off the thing, get some fresh air in there (literally and figuratively) and make it into something like Pike Place Market in Seattle. It could become THE destination in the region to get fresh produce, seafood, flowers, baked goods, and Norfolk t-shirts (do people buy Norfolk t-shirts?).

Part of the problem is urban design. Waterside has HUGE advantages with Town Point Park and the marina being right there, but it's annoying for people elsewhere in downtown to cross Waterside Drive. The Waterside Drive area just is not an inviting or intimate urban environment. The building setbacks, driveways, etc. make it a strange place to walk around. I'd love to see Bank of America let go of its drive-thru (how many downtown banks need drive-thrus??) and something be developed between BOA and Waterside Drive that leads pedestrians toward and then across the Drive. It wouldn't have to be huge, just something there so you don't feel you're leaving downtown to get to the waterfront.

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