Waterside District

[mistermetaj]

http://www.wavy.com/dpp/news/local_news/norfolk/developers-present-waterside-plans

You can see both presentations here.

[mistermetaj]

Towards the end of the video by HL there are a few great slides comparing the overall investment and ROI of the Cordish plan in concert with the Westin and Selden Arcade renovations vs. the HL plan which includes all of those components. Shows that the discrepancy in cost between both proposals is actually insignificant all things included.

We NEED the HL proposal.

[urbanlife]

The HL Proposal is the best choice, even with removing part of the Seldon Arcade....though I will say, I think the proposal was blown with this one because he didn't spend the entire time talking about how cheap this project would be, how little it would cost the city, and that it would do almost nothing to change the current look and feel of the downtown. They probably would of been better off downplaying their proposal to get the ones that always seem to want to aim low for the city on board and then just go big after getting picked up.

It is definitely a shame, but the city is probably going to end up with a renovation of Waterside with a private developer running it and not much will change in the city.

The adding of a new company to downtown should be enough to get the HL proposal picked, but Norfolk leaders tend to not be able to see too far into the future for the city, all they are concerned about is keeping their jobs by playing it safe.

[vdogg]

They probably would of been better off downplaying their proposal to get the ones that always seem to want to aim low for the city on board and then just go big after getting picked up.

It is definitely a shame, but the city is probably going to end up with a renovation of Waterside with a private developer running it and not much will change in the city.

Which is exactly why I've tuned out of this process. There aint no way in you know what that the ostriches on city council will ever support something so bold and grand. It's as simple as that. The Clark Nexsen portion of the presentation even mentioned that they were trying to attract young architects to the city by going bold and grand, and specifically stated that the architecture in the city leaves much to be desired and how there is a need for change. The Towne Bank expansion sounds like it would be a potentially huge addition to downtown as well. Also, everyone on the pilot, for who knows what reason, seems laser focused on the Cordish plan. I don't know why these folks are so excited about getting the exact same thing we had before in the exact same building but it's demoralizing. I hate to say it folks, but you may as well put this one in the Granby Tower and Westin folder.

[lil-bear]

I think that the city should offer both companies to combine their proposals. Go with Cordish for the Widerside Live and HL with the main street property. I could care either way about Selden Arcade. The conference center, hotels, and office tower along with parking can be built on main street. the highline can link them both together, let both develpers share the cost of the highline!

[mistermetaj]

Which is exactly why I've tuned out of this process. There aint no way in you know what that the ostriches on city council will ever support something so bold and grand. It's as simple as that. The Clark Nexsen portion of the presentation even mentioned that they were trying to attract young architects to the city by going bold and grand, and specifically stated that the architecture in the city leaves much to be desired and how there is a need for change. The Towne Bank expansion sounds like it would be a potentially huge addition to downtown as well. Also, everyone on the pilot, for who knows what reason, seems laser focused on the Cordish plan. I don't know why these folks are so excited about getting the exact same thing we had before in the exact same building but it's demoralizing. I hate to say it folks, but you may as well put this one in the Granby Tower and Westin folder.

But the city WONT even have the financing aruement on their side if you consider all that HL was building for them compared to Cordish. I really want to know what Burfoot's reasoning is for wanting to keep Waterside and not reinvent DT. I Wantto know why every commenter on the pilot is so horribly negative about development in this area. You would think if these people were so happy about their lives and the status quo they woukd have better attitudes about life. It is just mind boggling and so disheartening think a game changer like the HL proposal, proposed by NORFOLK LOCAL DEVELOPERS, doesnt have a chance at all...its such a shame and I am sickened by Norfolk and mainly Burfoot's attitude towards the direction of the city.

Edited March 7, 2012 by mistermetaj

[vdogg]

But the city WONT even have the financing aruement on their side if you consider all that HL was building for them compared to Cordish. I really want to know what Burfoot's reasoning is for wanting to keep Waterside and not reinvent DT. I Wantto know why every commenter on the pilot is so horribly negative about development in this area. You would think if these people were so happy about their lives and the status quo they woukd have better attitudes about life. It is just mind boggling and so disheartening think a game changer like the HL proposal, proposed by NORFOLK LOCAL DEVELOPERS, doesnt have a chance at all...its such a shame and I am sickened by Norfolk and mainly Burfoot's attitude towards the direction of the city.

Don't even get me started on Burfoot. That man's as old fashioned as that bow tie he wears, which is shocking to me considering how young he is. I think the youngest member on council is that Tommy Smiegel (sp?) guy, and as far as he's concerned the HL proposal is DOA. I always imagined that if we got some younger folks on the council that maybe we'd have more forward thinking, instead we have less. I just don't know what the solution to this problem is, we just seem hopelessly stuck in this small town mindset with no way out.

[BFG]

I was in Atlanta for the last few days, and when I see such a progressive city, it depresses me a bit to return to HR, a region with so much potential going to waste. There's so much Norfolk could do to become a little more relevant, and now I'm seeing that council will likely go with Waterside III, instead of taking a chance on a project with a shelf life. I'm willing to bet that if they go with Cordish, they'll be right back to square one by 2025.

On my way back from the airport, we rode past the Power Plant, which was apparently supposed to be what Waterside III is being touted as. If the same thing happens here, then they'll be at square one even sooner.

Norfolk City Council talks out of both sides of their mouths. You can't try and become a heavy hitter as a city, then seriously think it'll happen with a concept that's failed twice in the last 30 years. Even a compromise between Lindsey and Cordish is a hell of a lot better than one or the other. Can't SOMEONE on that council think outside the box?

It's the same problem I have with the arena concept; no it shouldn't go at Waterside, but a couple of council members said it's unnecessary because last they checked, the NBA isn't calling. While I get that, it's incredibly short-sighted (surprise there) to think that the arena would just be for the NBA pipe dream. Honestly, the conventions that Norfolk wants at this convention center could go to the arena, as could concerts, trade shows, and college basketball tournaments/NCAA opening games. The city gets the MEAC tournament next year, which is a big deal. If they want to keep the MEAC tournament, they need to absolutely consider a future home. At the very least, start considering land options, whether it be at Harbor Park or in the new SPQ.

Don't bury your head in the sand and think of it as just an NBA deal...just like don't bury your head in the sand and go with Cordish's option just because it's the safe bet. Sometimes you've gotta just pull the trigger. For the 5 steps forward they took with light rail and now Amtrak, they're taking another 10 back with this Waterside III concept. Build your downtown up, so that you can build your city's profile.

[brikkman]

Don't even get me started on Burfoot. That man's as old fashioned as that bow tie he wears, which is shocking to me considering how young he is. I think the youngest member on council is that Tommy Smiegel (sp?) guy, and as far as he's concerned the HL proposal is DOA. I always imagined that if we got some younger folks on the council that maybe we'd have more forward thinking, instead we have less. I just don't know what the solution to this problem is, we just seem hopelessly stuck in this small town mindset with no way out.

Don't knock his bow tie, lol

He adopted that from my fraternity's chapter who wears bowties. It has taken over our frat in general but more focused in the 757.

I'm a little shocked at how old school he is as well and I certainly would love to hear his thoughts on why keeping waterside is so important. What I guess however is, they want waterside to be history when it really isn't IMO. Its a terrible building, always has been. It has a small footprint and I'm sure that was due to the times and the sure make up the building is horrible as it is not a progressive design at all. Definitely a small town mindset, but again, I always thought the council did not have a true vision for the city. They talk about urban cores, but as it exist today.

I was actually in Bmore yesterday for an interview, had a chance to swing by Powerplant Live. Its ehhh I guess. My personal opinion, its a great addition, but it doesn't remake your town. I guess for most of us, we would like to see waterside turn the corner for the city in general. A different mindset, a progressive mind set, a moving forward mindset. They are quick to destroy historic structures in the name of progressive, but want to keep waterside? I just do not understand it. I will say, I'm not impressed with neither of the two proposals, however, I think a combination of both is worth the challenge. Considering, Cordish wouldn't be really loosing anything (Burfoot gets to keep his precious) and HL can build there hotels, highline and possible redesign The westin lot to be a conference center, hotel structure. Partial demo of waterside should be done regardless if it they keep it or not. They need to expand that footprint for more reasons than one. Extend a direct opening to the sheraton and even the marriott.

Edited March 9, 2012 by brikkman

[zeppelin14]

I still think the position on gambling in Virginia should be put to a vote by the PEOPLE and not a decision made solely by a few men in suits.

What this area needs to draw tourists from Williamsburg and Virginia Beach is a good casino. It works everywhere else.

[vdogg]

There's an editorial in today's pilot that comes down squarely on the Cordish side, calling HL the less "compelling" plan. :/ You just can't make this stuff up, I don't even feel like linking to the story lol. I think our best hope now is if they scrap both plans and go back to the drawing board. I truly feel that doing absolutely nothing would be better than implementing the Cordish plan at this point.

[mistermetaj]

There's an editorial in today's pilot that comes down squarely on the Cordish side, calling HL the less "compelling" plan. :/ You just can't make this stuff up, I don't even feel like linking to the story lol. I think our best hope now is if they scrap both plans and go back to the drawing board. I truly feel that doing absolutely nothing would be better than implementing the Cordish plan at this point.

I wouldnt expect anything less from the pilot. They dont scare me since their opinion means nothing in the end. I fear Burfoot since that old fashioned small city thinking vice mayor actually has power and he had made it abundantly clear hes not looking for a new look and reputatuon for Norfolk. Fraim is our greatest ally since personally i think he wants the grander development and a new look Norfolk. I hope he is as forward thinking as i think he is.

The pilot...eh let them keep catering to the small city thinking angry readers they get. Their opinion means as much as ours in the end.

[BFG]

Selden Arcade is safe.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/03/developer-revises-plan-raze-part-selden-arcade

[mistermetaj]

Selden Arcade is safe.

http://hamptonroads....t-selden-arcade

Why oh why did David Keith have to say:

"Every day we change it," Keith said. "We just had to have something to submit."

If that were Cordish who said this I would be ripping them for being unprepared and not serious about their development. I love the HL proposal, I really do. But it is just unbelieveable that he would say this after giving a huge presentation trying to win over city council and borrow money. I hope that quote was just a matter of hyperbole in reference to their design SPECIFICALLY for what they do with the Selden Arcade.

I'm surprise the PILOT didn't try to take him to the house for that quote.

[Ghentite]

Why oh why did David Keith have to say:

"Every day we change it," Keith said. "We just had to have something to submit."

If that were Cordish who said this I would be ripping them for being unprepared and not serious about their development. I love the HL proposal, I really do. But it is just unbelieveable that he would say this after giving a huge presentation trying to win over city council and borrow money. I hope that quote was just a matter of hyperbole in reference to their design SPECIFICALLY for what they do with the Selden Arcade.

I'm surprise the PILOT didn't try to take him to the house for that quote.

I think it's a good thing. Shows their ability to listen to the public and show flexibility. That's also one of the benefits of having a local company involved in this.

[brikkman]

I think it's a good thing. Shows their ability to listen to the public and show flexibility. That's also one of the benefits of having a local company involved in this.

Yeah, you are right, problem is, they are asking for money upfront as opposed to Cordish backhand way of getting a free ride (sort of speak).

[vdogg]

I think it's a good thing. Shows their ability to listen to the public and show flexibility. That's also one of the benefits of having a local company involved in this.

Eh, I don't know. I'm all for flexibility but if I were that guys boss I definitely wouldn't let him near a microphone again, lol. Saying they just "needed something to submit" reminds me of a college student that waits until the night before a 10 page paper is due to start it, and then fills said paper with bs (guilty ). It just screams unpreparedness and an overall lack of seriousness and they probably hurt their cause with that comment.

[Ghentite]

Eh, I don't know. I'm all for flexibility but if I were that guys boss I definitely wouldn't let him near a microphone again, lol. Saying they just "needed something to submit" reminds me of a college student that waits until the night before a 10 page paper is due to start it, and then fills said paper with bs (guilty ). It just screams unpreparedness and an overall lack of seriousness and they probably hurt their cause with that comment.

True.

On a side note. I heard that the Cordish team planted a bunch of their younger employees throughout the crowd during their presentation to hoot and holler when they were done briefing to make it look like their plan appealed to young professionals.

[mistermetaj]

True.

On a side note. I heard that the Cordish team planted a bunch of their younger employees throughout the crowd during their presentation to hoot and holler when they were done briefing to make it look like their plan appealed to young professionals.

I believe Cordish did this. It's a business savvy move considering the sway of Norfolk City Council seems to blow with the wind.

On a side note, a lot of the merit of the HL proposal is going to come from a revised 2004 study to determine whether the city actually needs to increase their convention center space. If the revised study says no convention center needed, then kiss goodbye the two hotels in their proposal as well. In the end, they will probably still have cause to build two addition office buildings for Clark Nexsens and Towne Bank, but a good chunk of their proposal will be gone. I highly doubt they will invest money in a highline to link to another competing proposal for Waterside.

Truth be told, I hope the city allows Cordish to build their plan but Clark Nexsens still finds it advantageous to transform Main St. with two offic etowers. And, since the city planner has already spoken about the lack of connectivity between downtown and waterside, have the city invest in the highline. A true highline park to move people IS infrastructure investment, and should be a city undertaking. It was a city undertaking in NY as well, eventhough the highline was there already from the highline trains of the later 1800s. I don't care much for convention centers one way or another. A hybrid would be ideal downtown IMO.

[BFG]

Marcus Jones wants more time. I'm really getting sick of the city's indecisiveness about what to do with Waterside.

http://hamptonroads.com/2012/03/city-managers-waterside-recommendation-delayed

The longer this city drags its feet, the more I wonder how pointless the "survey" was. Or maybe they realize that both options suck. Can these people do something outside the box for once in their lives? It's absolutely asinine to take more than a year to figure out what half-baked tired idea you want to go with.

[brikkman]

Marcus Jones wants more time. I'm really getting sick of the city's indecisiveness about what to do with Waterside.

http://hamptonroads....ndation-delayed

The longer this city drags its feet, the more I wonder how pointless the "survey" was. Or maybe they realize that both options suck. Can these people do something outside the box for once in their lives? It's absolutely asinine to take more than a year to figure out what half-baked tired idea you want to go with.

For me, it has been going on for 3 years if you add it all up. To wait on these two decisions may not be worth the wait, but maybe he is looking to see if he could mesh them together.

What I do not understand is, if HL wants to build a conference center, why are they so critical about putting it at waterside?

It seems like a win all the way around considering the options. HL development is more about the area than waterside. I would to see all evidence of waterside destroyed.

[mistermetaj]

So this is why Norfolk hires consultants:

Consultants say either Waterside propsal could work

"If the city decides to build a conference center at the site, as the proposal from Norfolk-based Harvey Lindsay Development Group would, it should not be a standalone, according to consultant Strategic Advisory Group. Instead, a hotel and conference center should be built on one site"

Wow, thanks for that stellar advice SAG. I mean, really it's not as if every conference center in America wants a hotel attached to it. It's not as if Va Beach, Norfolk's neighbor isn't struggling with that exact problem. I guess the city of Norfolk lives in a bubble and needed such profound advice.

"Another consultant, Huntley Partners, interviewed restaurant owners on Granby Street. They said they thought Waterside Live, a mix of entertainment and dining proposed by The Cordish Cos. of Baltimore, would benefit them by driving people downtown."

So let me get this straight. Norfolk hired TWO consultants for the same project, but they consulted on DIFFERENT proposals??? That makes no sense to me at all. And I love how they spoke to restaurant owners on Granby St. Does the city not have a single person who can put together some basic survey and have they owners fill out if they would or wouldn't support the project and the reasons? This really needed TWO consultants?

Give me a break.

Anyway, my recommendation to the city council, being as profound as the aformentioned advice, let Cordish own and develop Waterside, give HL the land for the office building and let them build on it, since they say they already have anchor tenants for the two office towers, and the city should invest in infrastructure and build the highline bridge and have it connec the HL project, to the Marriot Hotel, to the Cordish proposal.

And my advice was free

[BFG]

My head hurts. For all the good city council has done for the city (The Tide), they nearly negate it all by continuing to drag this out. It just makes no sense whatsoever.

[mistermetaj]

Well the updated article says Burfoot prefers the Cordish proposal and at least 2 other council members do as well. They dont even think there needs to be a vote. I wonder hat cordish will do when their restaurant complex flops after a few of the opening honeymoon months. Unlike Newport News they arent going to be able to draw retail away from McArthur mall to fill in the gaps. To me their proposal has fail written all over it. They still dont address the connectivity issue to the rest of downtown, the number 1 reason I think Waterside failed the first time.

Once this is built Burfoot can focus on ruining SPQ arguing nostalgia for the projects and making sure at least half the area stays as is

[vdogg]

Well the updated article says Burfoot prefers the Cordish proposal

I am shocked! Shocked, I say!

and at least 2 other council members do as well. They dont even think there needs to be a vote. I wonder hat cordish will do when their restaurant complex flops after a few of the opening honeymoon months. Unlike Newport News they arent going to be able to draw retail away from McArthur mall to fill in the gaps. To me their proposal has fail written all over it. They still dont address the connectivity issue to the rest of downtown, the number 1 reason I think Waterside failed the first time.

Once this is built Burfoot can focus on ruining SPQ arguing nostalgia for the projects and making sure at least half the area stays as is

I wish somebody would run against Burfoot. I think he would be more at home being vice mayor of Pungo. It is obvious that he is not cut out for running things in a large city.