Waterside District

[urbanlife]

yeah, so when does Norfolk get to vote, they really should push out people like Burfoot and get themselves people who want and show real signs of knowing how to run and actual big city.

[brikkman]

I guess they decided a couple of days ago, they started what it seems to be that art construction on the Westin site a couple of days ago.

They have a couple cranges, bulldozers placing marsek containers on its upside to form some kind of piller. Dropping sand and bolders to study it. Cut out holes at the bottom for access.

I guess cordish wins with no hope ful HL at all.

[vdogg]

Actually, that is only supposed to be a temporary park until they have a development ready to go for the property. They're just sprucing up what is now an eyesore, which I actually support. I think the statements about burfoots position are more indicative of HL being DOA than any construction going on on that site now.

[brikkman]

Actually, that is only supposed to be a temporary park until they have a development ready to go for the property. They're just sprucing up what is now an eyesore, which I actually support. I think the statements about burfoots position are more indicative of HL being DOA than any construction going on on that site now.

Yeah, I know, but I figured if it were a real and I mean a real consideration, why blow money on the possibility that they would go with HL? I'm sure it wasn't free unless they had some kind of contract that they couldn't back out of. Just funny if you ask me. I do not mind the cordish plan, I do however mind the building. It sucks and no one will ever come back to it unless Cordish brings in some big time chain names. Besides that, Norfolk has outgrown waterside size as it stands now. Lets not forget that fact. The building staying in any fashion is a mistake if you ask me. I do not see why HL and cordish couldn't go on at the same time, although burfoot made a clear different between conference and convention space and use. Im' at the point, I can't remember which one they said they actually wanted.

It seems as though, at every turn, when Norfolk has an opportunity to make a big decision, they bow gracefully out on something that never pans out.

The way they operate, I'm sooooo surprised LRT went through. This is small potatoes compared to that IMO.

[Ghentite]

City Manager is supposed to give his recommendation tomorrow at 4:30 You can view it live on the city's website here. Hopefully, they don't do anything stupid.

[mistermetaj]

City Manager is supposed to give his recommendation tomorrow at 4:30 You can view it live on the city's website here. Hopefully, they don't do anything stupid.

Cordish is the winner. The city leaders have wanted to dump Waterside for years and now they have their chance. Prepare for it to sit there doing nothing for years to come with Cordish's version of Waterside 2.0.

It'll also be sad to watch that parking lot turned recycled park sit vacant for the next 5 - 10 years as well.

No highline. No new office towers. No new business workers downtown. Keep the projects together. Thus is the desire of Burfoot and his bow ties.

[mistermetaj]

Not that we didn't already know this, but here is the article. Cordish wins.

Official picks entertainment venue as Waterside future

"Picture about a dozen restaurants inside a renovated community center that's surrounded by glass to give clear views of the water."

Pardon my ooooing and ahhhhing. This just sounds so amazing I had to catch my breath. 12 whole new restaurants. Here's to helping local eateries downtown!

"The developer would rehabilitate the building rather than raze it. That was a significant factor in his decision to select Cordish's proposal, Jones said. Cordish's $30 million proposal would include the removal of sections of the front and back walls of Waterside. They would consist of glass. The company also envisions an entertainment venue and a market setting for the site."

So basically their rehabilitation is to rip down the front and back walls. So REALLY, all the city wanted to do was preserve the roof. Great.all.

So in the end, after all of this, we are left with nothing remotely visionary, but instead, we get Waterside 2.0. Maybe we should take bids on 1) if Cordish actually fills all the space the claim they will, and 2) if this will even get off the ground in the next 5 years.

HL had plans to change the landscape of the city, to give us something culturally significant and urban. To bring business workers downtown. I don't get the city leadership at all...

Edited April 24, 2012 by mistermetaj

[BFG]

So in the end, after all of this, we are left with nothing remotely visionary, but instead, we get Waterside 2.0.

Technically 3.0...I consider Jillian's and the Have A Nice Day stuff part of 2.0. Either way, I see the council debating what to do in about 10 years.

HL had plans to change the landscape of the city, to give us something culturally significant and urban. To bring business workers downtown. I don't get the city leadership at all...

While I agree, and while I'm annoyed, I must say I'd rather they spend 30 million instead of 200. Problem is, it's too much of a "safe" bet, the one with nothing to lose. You can't become a big city without rolling the dice every so often. It worked with light rail, and Lindsay's plan to bring more businesses/jobs downtown, not to mention green space, had a lot of potential. Imagine having another Fortune 500 company in downtown Norfolk! I really hope that council won't turn him away and still let him develop something downtown.

I know it's all chains coming, so my other hope is that they don't bring a bunch of restaurants that already exist in this area. I live in West Ghent, so I wouldn't mind seeing places that exist in other U.S. cities outside of Hampton Roads (what Town Center did with Yard House and Gordon Biersch are great examples). But don't put something that I can find in Greenbrier or Lynnhaven. Unless it's Cheddars...love the food, but driving to NN to get there is a pain.

Edited April 25, 2012 by BFG

[Ghentite]

I know it's all chains coming, so my other hope is that they don't bring a bunch of restaurants that already exist in this area. I live in West Ghent, so I wouldn't mind seeing places that exist in other U.S. cities outside of Hampton Roads (what Town Center did with Yard House and Gordon Biersch are great examples). But don't put something that I can find in Greenbrier or Lynnhaven. Unless it's Cheddars...love the food, but driving to NN to get there is a pain.

I'm over in West Ghent too and one silver lining in this is outdoor restaurants/bars on the water. And I'm with you that they must be quality chains, such as Yardhouse, Gordon B's. My wife and I rode our bikes downtown 2 saturdays ago when the weather was incredible and our plan was ride along the water (huge disappointment unless you're in the mood for hooter's crappy wings) and then stop on Granby and get lunch and beer somewhere outside. There were absolutely ZERO places to go...minus the Granby Bistro which had open outdoor seating for lunch (6 tables that were all full). We had to circle around back to Ghent and found our way to Cogan's instead.

I just don't understand it, it's our downtown but there's nowhere to eat outside on weekends?! So that's one plus, we can go somewhere to enjoy a nice view of the river and have a cold brew. It will be hopping for TownPoint Park events too. Another positive is the hope that they continue development towards Harbor Park. It's hard but I'm trying to find some pluses...

Edit: I had some more time to think about this and updated my blog with some more thoughts. Feel free to read.

Edited April 26, 2012 by Ghentite

[Ghentite]

And now there's this. Norfolk, are you serious?!

[BFG]

At this point, I don't even care what happens with Waterside. City council has wasted so much time with its indecisiveness that it wouldn't even matter anymore.

[vdogg]

What! Are you kidding me?

Councilman Andy Protogyrou said Thursday that Harvey Lindsay sent him a new pitch this week to redevelop Waterside. The plan calls for replacing Waterside with a 60,000-square-foot waterfront conference center and an adjoining 28-story, $60 million, 300-room hotel. It would also bring a fully leased, 18-story office tower that would cost $45.8 million, six new restaurants and a new marina.

Jones described the new proposal as "innovative and thoughtful." Still, he said, there is nothing that the company can do to transform their plans into something he can recommend to the council.

Jones never mentioned Harvey Lindsay's new proposal when he threw his support behind Cordish.

All eight council members, including Mayor Paul Fraim, said they were unaware of Harvey Lindsay's new proposal.

So, we have a City Manager who is straight up withholding information from council on a project that can generate 1400 jobs in order to push through his pet project? Yeah, that's not shady. The way Burfoot and Jones have been pushing the Cordish plan has crossed the line from annoying to suspect. To actually be withholding information makes it hard to believe that somebody isn't getting paid something to push the Cordish plan through. I'm glad the city council is so forgiving because if I had witheld that type of information from my boss I'd be fired.

[BFG]

Now that I've fully processed this whole deal, I'm convinced Norfolk enjoys being a second-tier city. To turn down 1,400 jobs, an office building, and even the possibility of a Fortune 500 company is just ridiculous. They wonder why no one stays here, they wonder why college grads head for other cities. Look no further. If they think light rail's enough to put them on the map, they're mistaken.

[zeppelin14]

Marcus Jones is a ......... He stated that the public doesn't want to tear down Waterside? Does he NOT read people's comments on these articles or public hearings?

Edited April 28, 2012 by vdogg
Please refrain from using profanity in the forum.

[mistermetaj]

Marcus Jones is a ....... He stated that the public doesn't want to tear down Waterside? Does he NOT read people's comments on these articles or public hearings?

You didn't know? The "public" is really just Jones and Burfoot. The same guys who are nostalgic for Waterside while probably never going there and the same guys who want to keep the projects in SPQ.

They are a bane on Norfolk's ability to move past their own stigma.

[Ghentite]

Well May 1 is a great opportunity to get some of these old-timers out of office. For example, Jesse Scaccia, who runs AltDaily and has put in countless hours over the last 4 or 5 years into trying to make Norfolk an exciting city to live in, is running against Barclay Winn for Superward 6 (most of Ghent and Downtown). In a recent Pilot poll, he was killing Winn in votes. Now it's just a matter of getting people to show up on May 1.

[vdogg]

Well May 1 is a great opportunity to get some of these old-timers out of office. For example, Jesse Scaccia, who runs AltDaily and has put in countless hours over the last 4 or 5 years into trying to make Norfolk an exciting city to live in, is running against Barclay Winn for Superward 6 (most of Ghent and Downtown). In a recent Pilot poll, he was killing Winn in votes. Now it's just a matter of getting people to show up on May 1.

I would sooo vote Burfoot out if I lived in Norfolk, but unfortunately I live in Va. Beach. I guess i'll have to concentrate on doing all I can to vote John Moss out instead.

[BFG]

Well May 1 is a great opportunity to get some of these old-timers out of office. For example, Jesse Scaccia, who runs AltDaily and has put in countless hours over the last 4 or 5 years into trying to make Norfolk an exciting city to live in, is running against Barclay Winn for Superward 6 (most of Ghent and Downtown). In a recent Pilot poll, he was killing Winn in votes. Now it's just a matter of getting people to show up on May 1.

I don't think that will be a problem. A lot of AltDaily's fans live or work in Ghent/downtown, or frequent a lot of businesses in those two areas. Unfortunately, I just moved to that part of town and missed the deadline to change my address. I really hate that I let that happen.

[zeppelin14]

Where do we vote?

[Ghentite]

I think it may depend where you live, but I vote at Taylor Elementary School in West Ghent. If you go to the city's website, it probably says somewhere, or if you run a quick google search.

[brikkman]

You didn't know? The "public" is really just Jones and Burfoot. The same guys who are nostalgic for Waterside while probably never going there and the same guys who want to keep the projects in SPQ.

They are a bane on Norfolk's ability to move past their own stigma.

Man I think you nailed it here with that comment. When I read that, I was wondering, WHO wanted to keep waterside??? Even the DT residents who have probably the most selfish and undesirable recommendations ever wanted it tore down in their vision. Jones made a safe bet, one he does not have to be accountable for later if the council decides to choose it and it fails. I'm not at all surprised though, it is a recession, taxes payers are tired of the council screwing the money up, why would anyone be surprised? In some ways it makes total sense, in some ways its completely failed prospect. I think the city council problem is for everything that requires a real decision; 5 out of 6 times they will screw it up. You can't be looked upon as successful when you screw up that many times before you hit one out the park. LRT was their last hit. Shame, I didn't care for HL original project or their change, but I did like some elements of it like infilling the westin lot, the highline and expansion of TB. The conference/convention center on the water is just a flop if you ask me. Cordish plan sucks because it does nothing to redo that area, just bring in a bunch of changes that will eventually die off because people will get too tired of paying and it won't be much excitement.

One thing we can bet on seeing is parking being paid for if you eat there. Only problem with that is, you will turn off the causal stroller (like me and my family). And for the record, I'm not against chains like some people are, I think variety is good. I just believe we do not have a greater presence in that regard because it is too expensive for local business people to come up with establishments.

If anything they should have combined the two, I wonder if HL was against that or it was never presented??

Marcus Jones is a ......... He stated that the public doesn't want to tear down Waterside? Does he NOT read people's comments on these articles or public hearings?

Apparently not.

[Ghentite]

Anyone see the WVEC story on cordish? http://norfolklive.blogspot.com/2012/05/glimpse-of-cordish-waterside.html

[virginia pe]

Anyone see the WVEC story on cordish? http://norfolklive.blogspot.com/2012/05/glimpse-of-cordish-waterside.html

Somehow, I am not impressed. Or enthused. Or optimistic.

[vdogg]

Somehow, I am not impressed. Or enthused. Or optimistic.

Lol, me either. And WVEC has really been pushing this project for some reason... HL needs to get a better PR person and get themselves in the news cause all I ever hear about is this Cordish crap.

[ace707]

The sad thing about the WVEC piece is that for all the attempts to hype and support the Cordish plan, they seem to only confirm that it would fail. Did anyone notice that everytime they spoke of or was showing live from the Baltimore site that there seemed to be no one patronizing the place? Furthermore, the Philly project, while it seems to be successful cannot be repeated at waterside because one of the major components to the Philly projects success was it was practically supported by that city's sports culture? I have been to Philadelphia's pro sports district and when you have an NHL, MLB, NFL, and NBA team and their respective arenas and stadiums across the street from each other, of course any food/entertainment/hospitality facility would virtually succeed when placed in the midst of an area like that. Our area teams and the facilities they play in aren't beside each other let alone pro teams thus that comparison isn't applicable.