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Waterside District


umterp03

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I believe it was AltDaily that provided a WSJ link to a Cordish project in Kansas City. From what I remember, that project has struggled but is finding more success now as well. It's in downtown KC, near the Sprint Center, a venue that, despite the lack of an NBA or NHL team, still does quite well booking events.

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If the Cordish plan is going to work it has to be its own draw. That is more than just an accompanying restaurant venue to other draws in the city, it has to make itself THE DRAW.

The funny thing is, I never understood why the HL proposal had the ferris wheel in it, but the Cordish plan didn't. People are not going to flock to downtown Norfolk for chain restaurants. Maybe on the weekend it will pull in some new restaurateurs for the first few months or so, but dinner is not enough. They need entertainment, they need a reason to be there so the dining venues augment the entertainment. Something like a ferris wheel would actually be a decent idea.

What this really boils down to is the city council (Vice Mayor Burfoot) sees Waterside as a lost cause and wants it off the city books for the cheapest possible price (aka the Cordish proposal). Mix in a little Marcus Jones surveying the Norfolk NIMBYS claiming they would miss the blue roof of Waterside, and politics decided the winning proposal.

If there is any hope, it's that Cordish being a private firm will try to do what is most profitable, and being profitable includes bringing people in, so while the project has all the indicators it will be a flop, at least a private firm will work hard not to have a losing investment.

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I think Norfolk needs a place like 'waterside', just not the waterside it is today. I can't see why we can't have it all, it would be better instead if the city ask them two to work together to come up with something that does all of what people want it to be. I agree, without taking into account the entire waterfront, it is hard to see how the cordish proposal would really work different than what is there before. Now that HL isn't asking for money, a new evaluation would be warranted. The only problem is, people are looking at waterside as a historical venue, they are literally making it "historic", its almost forced history.The size and growth of Norfolk since the 80s is drastic, it can never be what it once was, it is just too much competition for it to be a place to eat with flashy lights. This isn't to say that HL is grand either....

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Hmm...

New sleek design: check

Modern architecture: check

Tallest office tower we've had in years almost fully leased: check

Ability to remake the entire character of downtown: check

Thousands of new jobs concentrated downtown: check

Yup, I'd say the chances that Norfolk will not pick the HL proposal have now risen to 100% :lol:

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I like the new proposal. If Norfolk does not pick this, I'm moving!

Norfolk just needs to get their heads out of the past. It's good to preserve history, but Waterside and the 1980s isn't anything special. If they want to "revamp" an area, revamp Granby Street. Redevelop the section north of Brambleton into an artsy area, and south of Brambleton can be the area that they want to develop all these new restaurants. Don't they realize that a new Waterside will kill Granby?

Develop Granby from Charlotte south to Tazewell to be blocked off from traffic, pedestrian only. It could have a lot of potential this way. Think of it like they did to Bourbon Street (closing the street to traffic at night), 16th Street Mall in Denver, or the Lincoln Road Mall in South Beach. Outdoor seating could be expanded a lot more with kiosks in the middle of the road with other vendors.

Potential new restaurants NOT found in this area could be a Hard Rock cafe, Maggiano's, BJ's Brewhouse to name a few.

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Examples:

Lincoln Road Mall

lincoln-road.jpg

2745913008_9625db0304_z.jpg

16th Street Mall in Denver

1.1253809941.16th-street-mall.jpg

downtown-denver-2.jpg

And a huge surprise (with a dose of sarcasm), Anthony Burfoot just said on WAVY 10 news that supposively no one in Norfolk city council wants the HL plan, even though it will bring jobs, a large 4-star hotel, and now, not costing the city ANYTHING!

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What? Why? Between these idiots and the stuff going on with light rail in vb I'm seriously considering leaving the area. This place is just too backwards. I finally graduated college in May so there's really nothing tying me to this area anymore. Im always trying to be hopeful and optimistic about the direction of the city but this stuff is really discouraging.

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I try my best to defend this area and realize it has a lot of potential, but stuff like this really makes me change my mind. You have a project that could really bring Norfolk into the 21st Century, and involves no money from council. Furthermore, it brings jobs and revenue to the city, and you turn it down? It really has me wanting to move as well.

Norfolk wants to be a heavy hitter, yet they do crap like this. They deserve to be a second-tier city. I'm starting to wonder whether council is getting some "under the table" incentive to stick with Cordish.

zeppelin, a lot of what you're proposing sounds a lot like "Granby Mall", which I found out was a pedestrian mall on Granby, blocked off to traffic. It was in the late-70s/early-80s and sounds fascinating.

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Unfortunately the Granby mall thing failed and I don't want to get my hopes up that times have changed enough in the miinds of many people in the area to make it succeed.

Sometimes the stupidity in the city council makes me want to talk to Mayor Paul Fraim's daughter (we went to school together as classmates from elementary to high school and graduated the same year) to get her to convince her dad to make this council think better for the city but I'm worried she would not want to get involved in the politics...

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http://www.wavy.com/...000&status=true

Norfolk's Vice-Mayor is concerned on how the Waterside Redevelopment project is playing out. Vice-Mayor Anthony Burfoot is calling on the City to bring the Cordish Company Executives to town to get the ball rolling. Burfoot says the process has been unfair to the group that had the winning proposal to reinvent Waterside.

The Vice-Mayor compares this to a football game. The Cordish Company was in the end zone with a touchdown, and now the City has put Cordish back on the fifty yard line.

"They need to have a one-on-one with the City Council," says Burfoot.

Are you kidding me?

The Coridsh Company did not answer any of our questions, but Burfoot feels frustration, "They have to be somewhat restless not to know how they stand when no one is talking to them at this point."

Burfoot is not happy with what he perceives as a slight snub and certainly a stall on the part of the City, "From a Public Relations standpoint this has not gone well for us."

Burfoot wants the City to move on with the recommended Cordish plan, and that has not happened.

I swear he's on their payroll..

Burfoot does not know anyone on Council that supports Lindsay's new proposal. We couldn't find anyone either. The problem is after all this time, only three council members are firmly behind the Cordish proposal while five appear to be undecided, "We are only dealing with the Cordish Group, I don't think they are getting that sense, I am very disappointed."

I mean the stock options they gave him must be on point. :lol:

Seriously though, I tell you there's nothing worse than a grown man throwing a temper tantrum. He's upset with the process? Well so am I. I'm upset at how he has tried to stack the deck against HL from the beginning, and statements like this really make me wonder if there is not some under the table deal going on. To have one councilman push so hard for a project when the process isn't even over yet seems suspect.

Edited by vdogg
Bolded that there are 5 undecided because that is actually a good sign :)
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Yeah, I've seen the Granby Mall pictures before.... Obviously it would need to be a lot better for it to be a success. I just provided the more modern pictures as examples of how Granby could be.

But, could you imagine if they DID bring back the Granby Mall as pedestrian only and do what downtown Hampton does on weekends with their block parties? It would be great!

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http://www.wavy.com/...000&status=true

Are you kidding me?

I swear he's on their payroll..

I mean the stock options they gave him must be on point. :lol:

Seriously though, I tell you there's nothing worse than a grown man throwing a temper tantrum. He's upset with the process? Well so am I. I'm upset at how he has tried to stack the deck against HL from the beginning, and statements like this really make me wonder if there is not some under the table deal going on. To have one councilman push so hard for a project when the process isn't even over yet seems suspect.

Where is Paul Fraim speaking on this? I am sick and tired of hearing from Burfoot already. We get it, he wants the Cordish proposal. Where the hell is Fraim at least taking a side on something.

I HOPE that Fraim sees 1500 new jobs and is salivating at the prospects. It is blowing my mind that Burfoot can go around running his mouth, yet the actual Mayor has said NOTHING on the matter.

Maybe something is going on behind closed doors Burfoot isn't happy with. Lets me honesty, HL is the game changer that Burfoot doesn't want for his precious welfare city of Norfolk.

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Where is Paul Fraim speaking on this? I am sick and tired of hearing from Burfoot already. We get it, he wants the Cordish proposal. Where the hell is Fraim at least taking a side on something.

I HOPE that Fraim sees 1500 new jobs and is salivating at the prospects. It is blowing my mind that Burfoot can go around running his mouth, yet the actual Mayor has said NOTHING on the matter.

Maybe something is going on behind closed doors Burfoot isn't happy with. Lets me honesty, HL is the game changer that Burfoot doesn't want for his precious welfare city of Norfolk.

From the article:

City Manager Marcus Jones wants to wait until after the budget process to tackle Waterside. The City Council is free to do what it wants. The Council can take the Cordish deal, the Harvey Lindsay revised deal, or do nothing.

We wanted to find out what the Cordish executives think. They did not answer any of the questions we had for them. We wanted to know if they feel snubbed, if they are upset with the process? Do they think it's unfair especially after their proposal won.

I also think something needs to be clear to the public and the news outlets. The Cordish Company DID NOT WIN ANYTHING. All they received is an endorsement from Burfoot (endorsed them from the get go) and from the City Manager Jones. While these figures are important, the City Council can DO ANYTHING THEY WANT TO. It's terrible that a news outlet would talk about their "winning propsal" when in fact, they didn't "win" anything, and the process is still in motion, so much so that more than half the council does not even feel confident in their proposal.

WHERE IS PAUL FRAIM???

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As much as Mayor Fraim has done to advance downtown Norfolk over the last 20 years (MacArthur, revitalized Granby Street, light rail, the desire to bring a Big-4 sports team here), I can't see him being on board with Waterside III, except maybe for "purity" and maintaining Norfolk's waterfront skyline.

However, as much as Fraim would like to see Norfolk be taken seriously, I think he realizes that business and the economy are far more important than saving a 30-year-old building that's had two failed lives. I do wish Burfoot would stop speaking for the council as if this is the final decision, and like that no one else is really showing their hand. However, Burfoot is making them look like they have their heads in the sand.

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This is the city's Facebook page. It may help to like the page and make your opinion about the waterside process known. Don't know how much that page is monitored but any opposing viewpoints that are aired on that page will let the city know that not everyone is sold on the Cordish plan.

https://www.facebook.com/NorfolkVA/app_192229990808929

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So disappointing. It seems like they are all in on Cordish, no evidence of anything else happening. They are basically dishing up Waterside 1980s again with a building that is already there. There was one light when smigel (sp*) when he talked about connecting waterside to harbor park, but it was short lived as he was only referring to making safe path that people would want to walk, not opening up for potential business or even bringing the entire area into 2012: 33mins...

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I'm under the impression that Burfoot is the only one who thinks Cordish's plan is a good idea. Mayor Fraim sees the risk (he even referred to the "makeover" from the late-90s), and Councilwoman Whibley has her doubts, as did Councilwoman Williams. Burfoot seems to be the only one gung ho about it.

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First off, I genuinely believe Burfoot is making money under the table from Cordish.

That being said, i think Riddick actually said it best what the ultimate desire is by some on the council, "ask them if they want to buy it, and that gets us out of it."

Some see it as the cheap and easy approach to relieve the city of Waterside. I don't think they care about projections, business or architecture.

I did like Barclay Wynns concern regarding "diluting" the money downtown vs. Cordish actually bringing in money downtown.

While I hate the project they chose, this at least showed me some on the council are thinking about the project clearly and are wary of unfulfilled expectations that already exist in the vision.

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I say, forget the Coordish plan! Go with the Lindsay plan and instead of a conference center, build an enclosed waterfront casino with entertainment and restaurants above and a marina. Let the Coordish company build on the Portsmouth waterfront to compliment the Norfolk development.

We can build a world class arena/conference center next to Harbor Park along with our new Transportation hub which should also include Greyhound. The present Greyhound block could become a vibriant district similar to ghent with housing opportunities targeting students, young professionals and the military. We have a large pool of young military living on base in barracks that would much rather live in mid-rise building downtown in the heart of the city. The city should partner with the Navy in developing off-base housing like they do in San Diego.

Finally, the city should build several mid-rise towers closer to NSU to relocate residents from the projects downtown. The SPQ is too important to screw up. The city has the opportunity to expand downtown and create another desirable destination in the city for people to live, shop, and dine.

We can use this area for another shopping district to include stores that bring in tons of foot traffic. I like some of the proposals they have already for the area but we need this area to be middle-class friendly and not another low-income mecca.

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We can build a world class arena/conference center next to Harbor Park along with our new Transportation hub which should also include Greyhound.

I like this idea of moving the Greyhound station. Put everything together and the Harbor Park area would develop rather quickly.

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