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Waterside District


umterp03

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Really random, but I was wondering if Cordish could do something like these, with open, walk-through bases, allowing direct physical access to the waterfront and preserving public vistas? 

Perhaps put a fountain under there, communal space or public art. Besides, raising the building up like this would address potential flooding issues! Ha.

Now, where the heck would you park? Unless you incorporate it into the base and hide the garage with a glass wrap. Otherwise it would be really ugly.  But then you  would eliminate the possibility of this cool, functional, open "peekaboo" concept. 

Maybe the garage across the street needs to be re-developed with a sky bridge linking to the new tower (and of course one to the District.)? Of course that assumes people will actually accept the idea of parking and walking to their homes--no matter how cool the journey or how well they are protected from the elements. 

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Edited by baobabs727
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I could see City Council being wary of a Cordish Apartment Complex due to a couple of concerns.

 

- Possible saturation of the market. Norfolk has added more than 1000 rooms to the Downtown apartment scene in the past few years. This is an amazing growth, but most of these apartments are already at the higher end when it comes to rent ($1250+/month). Council might want to see how the Icon does before adding another luxury apartment complex.

- Protecting of previous investments. The city has invested heavily in projects like Waterside and The Main. Since a tower built at the annex site would partially block the views of the water from The Main, there could be a worry about hurting a relationship with that developer as well as devaluing a quality property bringing new business into Norfolk. It's also my personal belief the reason the last Waterside project ultimately went sour was because it grew too quickly without gaining a proportional amount of new customers. They could want to guard against doing the same thing with Waterside again.

- Relationship with Cordish. Waterside has long been a beleaguered project and Cordish hasn't made things easy, at least for the full length of the relationship it has had with the city. Don't forget, this is a project that has been through multiple iterations with long delays and problems with financing. The City may be a bit hesitant to grant Cordish a prominent sky-line tower without seeing how their follow-through with Waterside is first.

 

Ultimately, I think that the tower at that location could be a good thing, especially if it encourages development along the rest of the waterside through past Harbor Park. If this tower does happen, I would hope the city would make some improvements to make pedestrian traffic move easier between Waterside and Main/Granby St. Bruce Thompson mentioned the idea of a pathway between The Main and Waterside that would go through the parking lot of the customhouse at the bottom of this article ( http://pilotonline.com/inside-business/news/commercial-real-estate/developer-arts-extravaganza-to-mark-opening-of-the-main/article_8c11044f-dc9b-5975-8963-e875bd103404.html ), and it's an idea that I very much enjoy. Put a parking garage behind the customhouse, and made that parking lot into a beautiful walkway/parklet and you might finally see some connectivity within downtown of all its jumbled parts.

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I can't see a tower being built on that plot of land, proximity to the park and access, also the blocking of views. It will morph more into an outside enclosed concert area like they have here in bmore. it would be a great time and opportunity to do something cool for a change. Then again, now that i typed that, maybe they would let them build a tower on that land. They pretty much have been okaying everything without much thought, why not ok a tower in the coming months. If they were smart about building a tower, they should have demo-ed the other/older section (the east side) and build out that side for a tower. That makes waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy more sense. Its away from the park, next to the sherton, the same parking access, not in the way of anything and the foot print is still foot print. I truly feel like they could have gotten everything they wanted in that proposal.

But it is time for Norfolk to have something cool and unique again. That will always be the selling point over VB as they grow and become or try to become more urbanely attractive. I could honestly stand to see another museum, but i know that is just me.

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Also, I did some digging around the Waterside District website, and I found this PDF: http://www.watersidedistrict.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/01/WatersideDistrict-EventsReferenceGuide-2017.pdf

It looks like a presentation to advertise their ability to host private events (of up to 6000 people combined!), but it has some awesome renderings of The Market, The Harbor Club, The Blue Moon Taphouse, as well as a floorplan for the 1st and 2nd floors! Although, to my eye, it looks like the 1st floor still has a bunch of open space where unannounced tenants will go, and the 2nd floor layout looks like it was clipped from a larger layout (I also doubt that the 2nd floor will just be the Harbor Club).

The last slide features another Cordish property (I think Baltimore?) that has floating eating areas. That looks like a great use of the water! Why haven't we seen that in the Waterside proposal yet?

I'm really interested to see what else is going to be announced in the coming weeks. Less than 9 weeks until it's supposed to open.

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This is making me more excited about the grand (re-)opening. The nightlife downtown is about to get really vibrant. It's too bad this won't be completed in time for the MEAC Tournament, though.

That final slide is indeed Baltimore...right above the Barnes and Noble sign, you can faintly see "Power Plant".

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The "blocking of the views of the water and public access to the water" is why I specifically chose two buildings with walk-through bases. Are the renderings coming through? I think they're cool as anything. And functional. And rebut "the arguments" to some extent. I guess nobody else agrees, & that's OK. Lol.

If you're speaking of blocked views at 5, 10 stories high or higher, I already mentioned that the building needs to be dimensionally slim. That would be mitigating  of said concerns. However, there's nothing anyone can do about partially blocking some hotelier's view from a few hundred yards away.  Any tower on the property,  no matter how svelte or see-through, will block somebody's view from somewhere. But honestly, I'm not really concerned about protecting the Marriott's or Hilton's views. They are not entitled to the view. They didn't pay for vista rights, or air rights or anything else. That's what happens in cities:  buildings get built, views get obstructed.  

With respect to legitimate concerns from Council and from citizens relative to the appropriateness of such a tower on that site and any adverse impact therefrom on a myriad of entities, you have to approach the problem from the standpoint of taking the objections one by one and seeing if you can solve the problem. Architecturally, site plan wise, or otherwise.

Creativity, Talent, Perseverance, Imagination, and perhaps most importantly, Open Minds, are all needed to make this project even a remote possibility. The direct and indirect economic benefits could be massive,  and the skyline would be modernized and transformed in a way we haven't seen since the advent of the gorgeous NS tower, some 30 years ago.

Edited by baobabs727
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Public access to the water would be nice. Take it from someone who uses the ferry to Portsmouth often. It has been a MAJOR pain to use the ferry since Waterside closed down. At the very least, that walkthrough would give us someplace to wait on the ferry that is out of the elements. Waiting on the ferry this February and March is going to be Hell. There is NO shelter.

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14 hours ago, jeffconn said:

Public access to the water would be nice. Take it from someone who uses the ferry to Portsmouth often. It has been a MAJOR pain to use the ferry since Waterside closed down. At the very least, that walkthrough would give us someplace to wait on the ferry that is out of the elements. Waiting on the ferry this February and March is going to be Hell. There is NO shelter.

Awesome!

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  • 4 weeks later...

Took some pictures about 2 days ago on my way to ptown via the ferry. Waterside is looking nice so far but I have to say I'm not a fan of the materials in use. I guess I thought they would be using real brick for the fasade and such but oh well. Still looks decent. 

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I never thought I'd make it to this point, but my opinion of this project has done a complete 180 from when it was first announced. I must admit that when they first announced this project I hated the idea. It seemed like a tired and old rehash of previously tried concepts. They have done quite well at bringing new and unique venues to this area. I must applaud them for that. I'm actually excited to see this open.

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Just now, vdogg said:

I never thought I'd make it to this point, but my opinion of this project has done a complete 180 from when it was first announced. I must admit that when they first announced this project I hated the idea. It seemed like a tired and old rehash of previously tried concepts. They have done quite well at bringing new and unique venues to this area. I must applaud them for that.

Same.

I'm looking forward to it opening.

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On 3/3/2017 at 2:10 PM, BFG said:

So they closed down all the bars at Waterside that had all the fighting, and are putting in a bar that will have all the fighting. Its a country bar, and i thought they said no more bars in Waterside. It is definitley looking like Waterside 3.0 will just be Waterside 2.0 with higher rent tenants.

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3 hours ago, jeffconn said:

So they closed down all the bars at Waterside that had all the fighting, and are putting in a bar that will have all the fighting. Its a country bar, and i thought they said no more bars in Waterside. It is definitley looking like Waterside 3.0 will just be Waterside 2.0 with higher rent tenants.

I think it's hard to objectively disagree with this standpoint. Of course, when one of the big things to get excited about is a country bar that also exists 30 minutes up the road in Hampton, you know that you don't have a lot going for it. Of course, this was to be expected with Cordish involved. Look at how the expected Power Plant in Hampton worked out. 

As for Waterside, Blue Moon looks OK. Guy Fieri's BBQ joint is somewhat exciting as well. But otherwise, it appears to be a lot of retreads that either currently already exist in the area or are very similar to what existed in the prior iteration of Waterside that got it shut down in the first place. I don't see anything truly unique here.

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Most of the places announced are actually new to the area, and people seem fairly excited about it. I'd give it a chance. This seems far closer to what they have in Baltimore than to what they have in Hampton. The Hilton opening with its bars and restaurants too will give that area of downtown some added synergy.  I think this will be successful. 

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Huh? The following tenants of Waterside District are all unique to our region:

 

The FOOD NETWORK's Guy Fieri's Smokehouse

Starr Hill Bar & Market

Blue Moon TapHouse

The Fudgery

The MARKET Norfolk (@30k sq ft)

Luk Fu Noodles & Dim Sum

The Harbor Club

Rappahannock Oyster Co.

 

And that's the vast majority of tenants right there.  Additionally, this venue will be far more upscale than the last one. There's not even a comparison to be made there, both in design and tenant mix. 

Everyone seems to be getting hung up on PBR and the bull riding. I've heard it from my people as well.  But you've got to try to have a little something for everyone if you want to succeed. They've got it covered I think. Harbor Club will be very classy, & The Market will feature a visually stunning design and a huge open space with chairs tables and lounging areas ...and additional vendors. 

And by the way, Cordish should not be defined by the Hampton Roads Power Plant, alone. They've done quite a bit of great work at Baltimore and in Kansas City,  just to name two off the top my head. 

Edited by baobabs727
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I have the very unique privilege of working in a building right across from the Waterside District, and I've been watching eagerly as the project has moved along over the last few months. In fact, from my office window, I am able to watch the progress day by day.  Last evening, enjoying some of the warm weather and sunshine, I went for a stroll after work to get some up close detail.  I took some photos which I will attempt to post here soon.  I do have a couple of observations:
1) I simply cannot see how they're going to be finished/ready to open by April.  Looks like there's still way too much to do, especially if you look at the building from the side facing the water.  I suppose they may surprise me, but it just looks like it's going to be a challenge, especially when you consider that they still have to get all the staff trained before they can open.
2) From looking at the footprint where the annex used to be, I really don't think a tower there would necessarily block view from the Hilton.  In fact, it appears that it would be directly across from the parking garage and not really block much of anything, especially if it had a slim footprint.  I don't know if this would be the best use for the site, but I think it would at least be doable without too much disruption to others.
3) The mix of establishments looks pretty good to me.  Look forward to trying the BBQ place.  Not personally a big beer drinker, but hopefully some good spots to grab a bite and just hang a bit.  I hope the Marketplace brings in a great selection of options.

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I didn't get to watch the whole story, but WVEC-13 did a story this evening about the progress and said it opens "next month". From what I saw in the previews, they'd have to work around the clock, unless it opens towards the end of April.

By comparison, the Main has looked 90% complete even last month or January. During the brief clip I saw earlier, it looked like they hadn't even started painting yet.

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2 hours ago, brikkman said:

Hopefully this is the final version of waterside. I do think Cordish has plans for that plot of land...

I would have loved this project so much better if the Sheraton was being rebuilt and all tied together officially.

Who knows, Buddy may buy the Sheraton and convert it into apartments.:tw_grin:

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