Waterside District

[brikkman]

Couldn't find their rating but i did leave a comment on their Instagram page of my displeasure.
What I do not understand is why do they associate "family friend" with how late something stays open yet beer is overlooked? Maybe because I'm not a drinker, but that all seems funny to me. Chuckie cheeses does not sell beer, does the zoo sell beer? My point is this, once you introduce beer IMO, full time Family Friendly kind of looses its pitch. I'm not even sure why they do not believe both can exist at the same time. Day time for the kids, night time for the grown folk. Additionally, who will have their kids out a place where live adult music is playing loudly with people drinking anyways?

I guess imagine family friendly different in that context. I'm sure they sell beer at hockey games and that has beer and fighting, but doesn't stay going to 2am, WTF am I talking about....

I HAVE NO clue....lol

 

Edited May 15, 2017 by brikkman

[baobabs727]

I've met Mr. Sutch. He's a nice guy:  laid-back, casual, pleasant. He does have experience running this type of thing. I did not realize the hours were so curtailed, otherwise I definitely would've asked about that. The only thing I asked him was why they were having such a difficult time programming the upstairs. He really didn't have much of an answer except to say that he truly needed our patronage.  

In fact, he stressed the need for patronage beginning in the morning hours (when they will be offering some type of quick breakfast and coffee), through lunch and during mid-day. 

So after watching that strange video, I now I strongly suspect that Council and Mayor Fraim quietly directed Cordish to change the original concept from "Live!" with its late-late nights and music-centric format to this so-called "family-friendly" "District"...  or "living room" concept.  I'm sure it had something to do with the fact that there was a dragging death on Waterside many, many years ago, along with shootings and assaults which Council believed to have been fueled by alcohol and late night revelry.

Personally, I believe that this project would be less likely to attract the same type of clientele who are inclined to commit such malicious mischief and felonies, alike.  But who knows.  So I say increase the hours to 12M Sun-Weds, & 2AM Th-Sat...and let's see!  (Y'all know in this town it's never, ever going to go beyond 2 AM anyway, right?)

What hours would you propose? 

 

 

[BFG]

Til midnight during the week, 2 am on weekends makes perfect sense. Unless it's a holiday weekend, downtown is usually pretty dead Sunday-Thursday, and that's okay. The bars aren't much different than what you see at Town Center, and even they don't start kicking people out until last call.

I think Mayor Alexander will eventually coax management to stay open later. I know he wants a vibrant, "24-hour downtown", not that this will stay open that late. But what bugs me is even the street festivals end early, usually no later than 9 or 10 pm.

[vdogg]

2 hours ago, brikkman said:

Couldn't find their rating but i did leave a comment on their Instagram page of my displeasure.
What I do not understand is why do they associate "family friend" with how late something stays open yet beer is overlooked? Maybe because I'm not a drinker, but that all seems funny to me. Chuckie cheeses does not sell beer, does the zoo sell beer? My point is this, once you introduce beer IMO, full time Family Friendly kind of looses its pitch. I'm not even sure why they do not believe both can exist at the same time. Day time for the kids, night time for the grown folk. Additionally, who will have their kids out a place where live adult music is playing loudly with people drinking anyways?

I guess imagine family friendly different in that context. I'm sure they sell beer at hockey games and that has beer and fighting, but doesn't stay going to 2am, WTF am I talking about....

I HAVE NO clue....lol

 

Here is a link to their page. https://www.facebook.com/WatersideDistrict/

 

[baobabs727]

1 hour ago, NFKjeff said:

Yes, I am pretty sure that the curtailed hours are due to the bad reputation the iteration of Waterside with Have A Nice Day Cafe, etc. earned. From what I understand it got fairly out of hand including bar dancing in varioud states of undress, etc. That is what I heard, but never witnessed it as I was not an avid bar patron then. The violence in and around that Waterside, including the parking lot surely didn't help. I think the city is trying to avoid a backlash should this type of behaivour occur at the Waterside District frequently. Personally, I believe that type of behavior was allowed by the previous owners, and they were mostly at fault. Perhaps after Cordish develops a good track record of management here the hours will be expanded.

BTW, the young lady who lost her life after being dragged by a vehicle as she left Waterside was a class mate of mine at TCC. She was a very nice young lady, and it was a tragedy that hit all of her friends and family very hard.

Yes, that was quite a tragedy. Did they ever catch the guy? Something about a black pick up truck that may have been in storage during a deployment?  There was a huge, high profile  investigation from what I remember. The story really haunted Downtown and Downtowners  for many months. Not to mention how sad it was for her family and friends.

From what I understand, Cordish runs a very tight ship…with age minimums and visible security. Zero tolerance. 

Edited May 15, 2017 by baobabs727

[vdogg]

2 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

I've met Mr. Sutch. He's a nice guy:  laid-back, casual, pleasant. He does have experience running this type of thing. I did not realize the hours were so curtailed, otherwise I definitely would've asked about that. The only thing I asked him was why they were having such a difficult time programming the upstairs. He really didn't have much of an answer except to say that he truly needed our patronage.  

In fact, he stressed the need for patronage beginning in the morning hours (when they will be offering some type of quick breakfast and coffee), through lunch and during mid-day. 

So after watching that strange video, I now I strongly suspect that Council and Mayor Fraim quietly directed Cordish to change the original concept from "Live!" with its late-late nights and music-centric format to this so-called "family-friendly" "District"...  or "living room" concept.  I'm sure it had something to do with the fact that there was a dragging death on Waterside many, many years ago, along with shootings and assaults which Council believed to have been fueled by alcohol and late night revelry.

Personally, I believe that this project would be less likely to attract the same type of clientele who are inclined to commit such malicious mischief and felonies, alike.  But who knows.  So I say increase the hours to 12M Sun-Weds, & 2AM Th-Sat...and let's see!  (Y'all know in this town it's never, ever going to go beyond 2 AM anyway, right?)

What hours would you propose? 

 

 

There is one non-afterhours club over by Odu that stays open till 3, so it can be done. There is of course an official after-hours club downtown that stays open till 6. That's about it though.

[baobabs727]

I just read about 50 Facebook comments on their page, and no one is mentioning that they need to stay open later. However, many people are complaining that it's not family-friendly enough ...that there's nothing for kids to do...that it's not stroller or wheelchair accessible, and that the atmosphere was more food court/bar than fresh market or sit-down eatery. So, while I actually think people should leave their kids at home when coming to a place like this after the dinner hour,  plus keep their comments and attitudes in perspective given that it was a grand opening,  it looks like we may be out numbered.

I guess you can't please everyone! 

26 minutes ago, vdogg said:

There is one non-afterhours club over by Odu that stays open till 3, so it can be done. There is of course an official after-hours club downtown that stays open till 6. That's about it though.

True.

Truth be told, the president sometimes hangs out on my neighbor's porch. Not sure how often he will be there now given his crazy schedule, but if I see him and can find an appropriate moment, I will engage him in person.

Edited May 15, 2017 by baobabs727

[Urbanlooker]

1 hour ago, NFKjeff said:

These kids seemed to be having a pretty good time on Mother's Day. 

Can I say that I definitely thought this was a rendering at first glance because there isn't a single cloud in the sky and The Main looks amazing from right there.

[BFG]

I just want this momentum shift to stay for good. Norfolk probably hasn't been this active since the 60s. IMO, even when MacArthur opened back in '99 I don't think Norfolk had this much buzz, which says a LOT!

[brikkman]

13 hours ago, baobabs727 said:

I just read about 50 Facebook comments on their page, and no one is mentioning that they need to stay open later. However, many people are complaining that it's not family-friendly enough ...that there's nothing for kids to do...that it's not stroller or wheelchair accessible, and that the atmosphere was more food court/bar than fresh market or sit-down eatery. So, while I actually think people should leave their kids at home when coming to a place like this after the dinner hour,  plus keep their comments and attitudes in perspective given that it was a grand opening,  it looks like we may be out numbered.

I guess you can't please everyone! 

True.

Truth be told, the president sometimes hangs out on my neighbor's porch. Not sure how often he will be there now given his crazy schedule, but if I see him and can find an appropriate moment, I will engage him in person.

That is disappointing to hear. One thing I know for certain, if waterside was 100% dedicated to family friendly, it will fail as it did before no doubt in my mind about that at all. When you are going to waterside, you are really going out your way to be there, you aren't just stumbling down Granby st and say "ooh didn't know that was there, lets check it out". You go to waterside with a purpose. Stroller accessible? no offense, all full time moms complain about that.

But Cordish will be the keeper of the keys, so whatever they choose to do may just work. Never heard of anything they done that has failed, I still think its risky for Norfolk with its history.

[BFG]

I know I had my gripe about it not being family friendly enough, but I think that's just me (and apparently others) being used to the other versions of Waterside.

I just don't see why it can't cater to families during the day, and focus on nightlife after a certain hour. 10pm-2am is more than enough time. You don't have to have the nightclubs from the 2000s, just a light bar/lounge atmosphere with live entertainment. This isn't rocket science. 

[skylinefan]

Waterside can cater to both adults and children during the day.  The play area is a great idea during day.  Maybe orient some of the restaurants for everyone during the day including children.  At 6pm or there about orient it to adults only. 

[brikkman]

24 minutes ago, skylinefan said:

Waterside can cater to both adults and children during the day.  The play area is a great idea during day.  Maybe orient some of the restaurants for everyone during the day including children.  At 6pm or there about orient it to adults only. 

I thought that was what chiplote was for, lol

[vdogg]

Stripers has filed their application with the planning commission. They go before the planning commission on June 22nd. They will be serving both food and drink. Their proposed hours of operation are....11 am to 11 pm...On weekends... I'm barely out the door by 10. Guess I'll be passing this up too. Maybe I'll check them out for lunch.

[BFG]

I'm out here for the "World's Largest Office Party". Decent little crowd outside, but inside is still packed. Small events like this are great for during the week. 

[jeffconn]

Went there for the first time for lunch Friday afternoon. I expected more than just a food court and some bars. Seriously underwhelming. Was very surprised to see all the "Market" shirts on the employees. Looks like they want the ability to cycle the employees between each food kiosk. That isn't a good sign.

[baobabs727]

7 hours ago, jeffconn said:

Went there for the first time for lunch Friday afternoon. I expected more than just a food court and some bars. Seriously underwhelming. Was very surprised to see all the "Market" shirts on the employees. Looks like they want the ability to cycle the employees between each food kiosk. That isn't a good sign.

Hmm.  Did you walk around? Upstairs, downstairs, out back, out front? There are great patios out back and out front. Striper's Seafood is being built out now, and these "bars" also are restaurants. The Harbor Club upstairs is upscale and 10,000 ft.², plus there are other areas which don't get photographed much inside.  All in all, there are supposedly 17 different meal purveyors.  As for the T-shirts, I believe that all the employees working in the Market work for Cordish, so that makes sense  for them to wear shirts with a unifying theme. Also, there is the Mix, where you can dine out on the patio and order from any of the 17 purveyors.  So they are one big team, essentially. 

Is Vin open yet?

[likeminded]

On 5/11/2017 at 8:29 PM, vdogg said:

If you're not already in line for Weezer forget it. No way in hell you're getting in now. I'm going to sit at the bar and drink and just listen, lol. They need to open ALL of Town Point Park when they have events like this. The area they have cordoned off is way too small.

 

 

 

 

 

 

This wasn't a "Town Point Park" event - this was a Waterside District event.  It's not uncommon for venues like this to have limited space.

[likeminded]

On 5/22/2017 at 2:38 PM, jeffconn said:

Went there for the first time for lunch Friday afternoon. I expected more than just a food court and some bars. Seriously underwhelming. Was very surprised to see all the "Market" shirts on the employees. Looks like they want the ability to cycle the employees between each food kiosk. That isn't a good sign.

What's not a good sign?  That they have "Market" shirts and perhaps the ability to be used where needed?  I don't understand the problem with that. As far as the establishments, there are restaurants - G.F.'s Smokehouse, along with Stripers and Chipotle coming; there are bars - PBR, Starr Hill; and there are those that are "both" like Blue Moon.  I think the mix of options is pretty great.  I do wish they had more than canned sodas in the Marketplace, and it's a bit on the pricey side to me.  But, as a venue where there is a great vibe and mix of dining and drinking and entertainment options, I think it's great.

[jeffconn]

13 hours ago, likeminded said:

What's not a good sign?  That they have "Market" shirts and perhaps the ability to be used where needed?  I don't understand the problem with that. As far as the establishments, there are restaurants - G.F.'s Smokehouse, along with Stripers and Chipotle coming; there are bars - PBR, Starr Hill; and there are those that are "both" like Blue Moon.  I think the mix of options is pretty great.  I do wish they had more than canned sodas in the Marketplace, and it's a bit on the pricey side to me.  But, as a venue where there is a great vibe and mix of dining and drinking and entertainment options, I think it's great.

My problem is that i would want somebody hired by Cogan's and trained by Cogan's to make a proper Cogan's pizza. I don't want somebody that is just an assembly line cog to make the food. If somebody works at the coffee shop on Monday, and Guy's place on Tuesday, and Luk Fu on Wednesday, he is going to be mediocre at best, and the food and service will suffer. If Cordish runs all the restaurants, then they will all be mediocre, just like all the eateries run by Aramark at ODU. No real competition breeds mediocrity.

And going back a few posts, do you folks really think that Waterside 2.0 failed because there were too many options for families? Seriously? One of the last restaurants left in Waterside 2.0 was the family-friendly Joe's Crab Shack. Waterside failed because it was FRIKKING DANGEROUS to go there after dark! That reputation killed Dave and Buster's, Outback, and all the other restaurants that left Waterside before it closed.

And finally, i guess i was underwhelmed because i figured a place called The Market would, you know, actually have A MARKET, and not just be a glorified food court.

Edited May 26, 2017 by jeffconn

[baobabs727]

Mon Dieu.

I don't think you know enough to make those types of assertions, and I highly doubt that any competent business person would allow their good name to be sold out to the highest bidder in such a careless manner.  I don't buy it. 

How do you know that the establishments haven't trained individuals to specialize? Why would a local establishment like Cogan's pizza lend their good name to a "mediocre" endeavor? Why would they not ensure high quality and training standards?  Their good name is all that they've got. Accordingly, they are incentivized to maintain and preserve it. And if you think that a bad reputation at Waterside won't negatively affect their reputation elsewhere, you're dead wrong.

The term "market" can mean tons of things:  Produce, flowers, fish, groceries, prepared foods, prepared bottled items, canned goods, drinks, household items,  novelty items, even clothes.

You simply had a preconceived notion of what "market" meant for Norfolk (though you've yet to define your term), which had been, by the way, entirely and thoroughly rebutted and controverted by all media accounts leading up to the opening. 

Finally, are you in fact fearful for your personal safety at "Waterside 2.0" after dark?

Edited May 26, 2017 by baobabs727

[brikkman]

8 hours ago, jeffconn said:

My problem is that i would want somebody hired by Cogan's and trained by Cogan's to make a proper Cogan's pizza. I don't want somebody that is just an assembly line cog to make the food. If somebody works at the coffee shop on Monday, and Guy's place on Tuesday, and Luk Fu on Wednesday, he is going to be mediocre at best, and the food and service will suffer. If Cordish runs all the restaurants, then they will all be mediocre, just like all the eateries run by Aramark at ODU. No real competition breeds mediocrity.

And going back a few posts, do you folks really think that Waterside 2.0 failed because there were too many options for families? Seriously? One of the last restaurants left in Waterside 2.0 was the family-friendly Joe's Crab Shack. Waterside failed because it was FRIKKING DANGEROUS to go there after dark! That reputation killed Dave and Buster's, Outback, and all the other restaurants that left Waterside before it closed.

And finally, i guess i was underwhelmed because i figured a place called The Market would, you know, actually have A MARKET, and not just be a glorified food court.

IMO, waterside didn't fail because of danger, the stats show that. There was a perception if anything created by the masses, but the stats do not support dangerous, none that I've seen away. Waterside die very simply because there was no need to go there. Like you said, its a food court. Food courts were popping in the 80s and still dying in 2017. No one will go out their way, make a day of it to go to a river with little views and a dead food court. Too many options arose in the 757 after the 80s, very simple. The difference now is Cordish as a company will control the reason why people come to waterside. This really isn't rocket science. NHRA ran waterside forever, worked on the "build it and they will come concept". When the entertainment stopped, people stopped. Cordish has invested their money to insure this will work. I suspect however it will shift away from this middle ground play until full adult, driving families to WS during daytime and adults at night.

If Norfolk wants a place to bring families, they should really consider their entertainment options and parking dilemmas. They are in competition now unlike the 80s and early 90s. You can go to the towncenter and park for free. To come to waterside you get hit with parking premium before you even step through the door. Who will pay that premium for something that really doesn't suit them? Throw in live entertainment that is consistent and worth coming to see, people will continue to patronize.

My wish once they went down this route was to have a  "Howel at the moon", oh well..

[likeminded]

14 hours ago, jeffconn said:

My problem is that i would want somebody hired by Cogan's and trained by Cogan's to make a proper Cogan's pizza. I don't want somebody that is just an assembly line cog to make the food. If somebody works at the coffee shop on Monday, and Guy's place on Tuesday, and Luk Fu on Wednesday, he is going to be mediocre at best, and the food and service will suffer. If Cordish runs all the restaurants, then they will all be mediocre, just like all the eateries run by Aramark at ODU. No real competition breeds mediocrity.

Don't know about that for certain.  I guess it's a possibility.  So far; however, seems to be fine.  Had a panini at Cogan's and it was fantastic! Also had something from The LoCal that was really good.  My only complaint is things are a bit pricey.

[likeminded]

5 hours ago, brikkman said:

IMO, waterside didn't fail because of danger, the stats show that. There was a perception if anything created by the masses, but the stats do not support dangerous, none that I've seen away. Waterside die very simply because there was no need to go there. Like you said, its a food court. Food courts were popping in the 80s and still dying in 2017. No one will go out their way, make a day of it to go to a river with little views and a dead food court. Too many options arose in the 757 after the 80s, very simple. The difference now is Cordish as a company will control the reason why people come to waterside. This really isn't rocket science. NHRA ran waterside forever, worked on the "build it and they will come concept". When the entertainment stopped, people stopped.

I hate to disagree (actually, no, it's rather fun to debate these ideas) but don't think it was that, either, at least not entirely.  I believe there were myriad factors, and it's probably more complex than any single post, but lemme try anyway.
First, the mix of establishments wasn't special.  Some restaurants, like Outback, Joe's, and Hooters, that you could go to elsewhere.  A cruddy food court.  A few boutiques that were irrelevant once MacArthur center opened. And bars - like Bar Norfolk and Have A Nice Day -   that were not nice places to enjoy an "adult beverage" but places designed to go get wasted and rowdy and had nothing else to offer (unlike someplace like Blue Moon, which is upscale, has some nice food, and isn't "seedy".)  Add to that the danger element and lack of good entertainment - plus the fact that the design did little to really make use of the water views.  One of the few exceptions to some of this was Jillian's, but it lost its luster fairly quickly.  You also had a downtown that wasn't nearly as vibrant back then.  Now, with new offices and new residential space, it's really experiencing a true gentrification.
The new Waterside is vastly different.  Way more upscale.  It will capitalize on the new dynamic in DT Norfolk.  I like what they've done.  Still a little pricey for me - and I don't drink much, so way more interested in the food options, but the "food court" is definitely not like a typical mall.  Totally different vibe.  I give it at least an A- and I think Cordish has a winner on their hands.

[vdogg]

Trying the local today. 9 wings, a meatball cup, and dessert...$27. Figured I'd get a drink while I'm at it. A CAN of Sprite...$3. Said no thanks and changed my order to go. These prices are nowhere near justifiable.