Waterside District

[brikkman]

NEW! Sunday Acoustic Concerts

on the Waterfront With Hunter Hughes

Part of New Waterside Events Program

Free and Everyone is Welcome

[varider]

VBTC even has street performers every once in a while.. There was a live band downtown a couple weeks ago on monticello, then it started rainin and they moved into the mall.. Sounded good too. There are so many little things norfolk could do to liven up the city.. But they're doin alright.

[urbanlife]

I see no reason why Waterside shouldnt be a bit of a tourist trap for the city...it makes sense to have it be one because it is along the waterfront.

Also varader, you are right, 30,000 people is alot of people that could be keeping the place active during lunch time...here in Portland, street carts have been filling a number of our surface lots with some great food of all different types...it is actually a great way for a young chef to get their start in owning their own restuarant here.

[varider]

I've been downtown a few times during the work week at lunch time and the businessmen and women seem to flock to granby street, macarthur food court, and a very small portion go to waterside.. I bet ya if their was a chick fil a or a taco bell in there it would be jam packed.

[Sky06]

I bet ya if their was a chick fil a or a taco bell in there it would be jam packed.

You are kidding, right? Plain Jane chains is not what Waterside needs. People will ignore those faster than they did all the original places.

I find it funny that everyone talks about "going back" to the old Waterside. As stated above, it needs to go back to having mostly eateries. Hell, that's pretty much what Wateride has always had. We seem to be reminiscing about the good ole days of . . . 3 months ago. It's not the city that's running them out. These places are leaving because nobody wants to go there anymore. Sure, I'm all for cleaning and moderninzing the place so it's more appealing. But the place has always been dark and kind of nasty. That didn't stop people from packing the place year after year. Over time, people have simply lost interest. Some of you say the city has failed to provide entertainment like VB. Heck, Norfolk invented it . . not VB. But does anyone care? And please, don't blame the bars. The bars came in 10 years ago. And they all did great for many years. In fact, they saved the place from dying a long time ago.

Personally, I liked the food places that used to be at Waterside. Pretty good food. Very good variety. Every place served imported or microbrewery beer. But I found myself more often than not eating all by my lonesome. Waterside hasn't gone down hill because of any store changes. Or even because of what it lacks. It's the other way around. Changes are happening because the place is struggling to survive. I always felt that Waterside put a pretty good product out there . . . but people ignored it. And I truly believe that if Waterside implemented 95% of the suggestions mentioned on this site, people would still ignore it. No, not because it doesn't have a Chic Fil a. Not because it's an ugly building. Not because it doesn't have this or that. Who knows? Maybe we're all just too good for it.

But here's something I've always noticed about this town that just makes me scratch my head: Why is it we hate things when they're here and love them after they're gone?

Edited July 13, 2009 by Sky06

[varider]

You are kidding, right? Plain Jane chains is not what Waterside needs. People will ignore those faster than they did all the original places.

So every fast food chain across the country, no matter where it's at, does good business all the time, but smack one in waterside and people will ignore it?

[Weaver24]

So every fast food chain across the country, no matter where it's at, does good business all the time, but smack one in waterside and people will ignore it?

What you guys don't understand is that Waterside needs BOTH chains and local places...and quality chains as well as quality local and independent establishments. We need the chains to bring the people down there and the local places for people who want a different experience. Look at how successful Va Beach development projects are (VB Town Center, Lynnhaven Mall, etc.) are because they attract the right mix of quality tenants...and people will drive from far away to patronize these destinations. Norfolk (especially certain developments) lack that mix...Waterside is also dirty, outdated, and uninviting. It gotten so bad that it attracts an unsavory element at times. I think totally redeveloping the facility is what's needed to complement the newly renovated park.

[varider]

Tear it down. It stinks, its dark, its dirty, I don't even know why I'm giving ideas to bring people there.I wish some developer would come in and totally redesign waterside along the lines of inner harbor.

Edited July 14, 2009 by varider

[brikkman]

Tearing it down is the best option for waterside and I think Sky is right about people are just not into it anymore. I do believe that the city could have continued to provide free entertainment and should have set aside some money to do so. That was very important for a place like waterside, essentially it was a place to go and eat; one big azz food court. The design of waterside was not expandable and probably the reason little has changed over the years. I say all the time that bars isn't what killed waterside, I feel that way. People change, things change, but I still believe Norfolk should have made it a point to draw locals (not just tourist) to waterside on a daily basis. Entertainment is what they lack and the city is unadventurous. Tear it down and use the "IF YOU BUILD IT, THEY WILL COME" concept. I do not care what they do with it honestly, but I believe Jillian

[Telmnstr]

The city will let it fall apart like they did with the library, then have the taxpayers buy a new one.

You called Chik-fil-a a run of the mill fast food place? How dare you.

Dude, the place needs no other eateries than one. And that one is the mongolian BBQ.

[urbanlife]

You are kidding, right? Plain Jane chains is not what Waterside needs. People will ignore those faster than they did all the original places.

I find it funny that everyone talks about "going back" to the old Waterside. As stated above, it needs to go back to having mostly eateries. Hell, that's pretty much what Wateride has always had. We seem to be reminiscing about the good ole days of . . . 3 months ago. It's not the city that's running them out. These places are leaving because nobody wants to go there anymore. Sure, I'm all for cleaning and moderninzing the place so it's more appealing. But the place has always been dark and kind of nasty. That didn't stop people from packing the place year after year. Over time, people have simply lost interest. Some of you say the city has failed to provide entertainment like VB. Heck, Norfolk invented it . . not VB. But does anyone care? And please, don't blame the bars. The bars came in 10 years ago. And they all did great for many years. In fact, they saved the place from dying a long time ago.

Personally, I liked the food places that used to be at Waterside. Pretty good food. Very good variety. Every place served imported or microbrewery beer. But I found myself more often than not eating all by my lonesome. Waterside hasn't gone down hill because of any store changes. Or even because of what it lacks. It's the other way around. Changes are happening because the place is struggling to survive. I always felt that Waterside put a pretty good product out there . . . but people ignored it. And I truly believe that if Waterside implemented 95% of the suggestions mentioned on this site, people would still ignore it. No, not because it doesn't have a Chic Fil a. Not because it's an ugly building. Not because it doesn't have this or that. Who knows? Maybe we're all just too good for it.

But here's something I've always noticed about this town that just makes me scratch my head: Why is it we hate things when they're here and love them after they're gone?

I wanted to address this comment in particular...the idea of going back to the "good ole days" for me is going back to when their was the fudge place there that put on live shows basically and let everyone watch them make fudge. Waterside use to feel like an extension of TPP, not a separate building...when the bars moved in, the mindset of the building changed...it was no longer an extension of TPP, but a large booze building in downtown Norfolk where one could bar hop without leaving the building...sort of a booze mall.

Now people still see it as that, including possible tenants....the best bet for the city, would be a complete renovation...I dont see the need to tear down a structure that is structurally sound, but there is nothing wrong with stripping it down to its skeleton and starting over...having the place feel like it really opens up to the park, which this can be done in several ways which include visual with more windows, actual with more passageways, and outdoor eating...giving restaurants a feeling of indoor and outdoor during good weather.

Then there would need to be something that would be seen as a draw to the area...I like to refer to Pike Place Market because that is more than just a farmers market, there are tons of vendors there as well that set up to sell homemade stuff and such.

Overall, there are plenty of great examples of what they should be doing with Waterside...the problem is, the city isnt doing any of those things.

And not to knock my hometown, but the region could be better off with less fast food chains.

[Telmnstr]

You're forgetting... the city KILLED Waterside to promote the mall. Which would you rather have, Waterside with some expensive boutique shops, or MacArthur mall?

They purposely pushed out the vendors in Waterside to promote the mall. Many of them could not afford the change, so they left.

I remember the fudgery. But it was also home to a dollar store, and a weak record store, a kite shop and other boutique stuff. I was young, I don't remember it thrilling. The kite shop was neat I suppose. It seemed like an upscale indoor version of Virginia Beach oceanfront shops?

Friends and I laugh about the singing fudge people.

[brikkman]

You're forgetting... the city KILLED Waterside to promote the mall. Which would you rather have, Waterside with some expensive boutique shops, or MacArthur mall?

They purposely pushed out the vendors in Waterside to promote the mall. Many of them could not afford the change, so they left.

I remember the fudgery. But it was also home to a dollar store, and a weak record store, a kite shop and other boutique stuff. I was young, I don't remember it thrilling. The kite shop was neat I suppose. It seemed like an upscale indoor version of Virginia Beach oceanfront shops?

Friends and I laugh about the singing fudge people.

Did it really?

I am trying to remember, but it was dead before Macarthur mall, also, they didn't house anything in the marketplace that would be overtaken by Macarthur other than attention. Even if that's true, the comparison is just stupid. Really, waterside could take business from Macarthur center? not likely! I can't remember this fudgery people keep talking about, but i remember everything else. Probably because I do not eat fudge... I blame it on the city for thinking the marketplace could survival during the cold months without any incentive other than a huge food court and stage without entertainment. Does anyone realize that its really a big azz food court. A big two story circle with vendors around....You do not come to waterside on accident, you make an effort to come there. if there is nothing to come there for (expect half par food places), why would it stay lively?

CITIES FAULT, period...

[mistermetaj]

You're forgetting... the city KILLED Waterside to promote the mall. Which would you rather have, Waterside with some expensive boutique shops, or MacArthur mall?

They purposely pushed out the vendors in Waterside to promote the mall. Many of them could not afford the change, so they left.

I remember the fudgery. But it was also home to a dollar store, and a weak record store, a kite shop and other boutique stuff. I was young, I don't remember it thrilling. The kite shop was neat I suppose. It seemed like an upscale indoor version of Virginia Beach oceanfront shops?

Friends and I laugh about the singing fudge people.

McArthur Mall is connected to DT Norfolk, whereas Waterside isn't. Unless you're staying in that horrid hotel next door or want to take a ferry to Portsmouth (and who would?), there is no reason to go to Waterside (at least during the day) except for the Hooters.

[Telmnstr]

I'm saying, I remember there being a Pilot Online article where the tenants of Waterside were complaining because they were given an ultimatum: Move to MacArthur (at much much higher rents) or get out.

Obviously many of the stores wouldn't fit in MacArthur. I think we look back with glory days of Waterside, but if we went back in time we'd see that Waterside was actually pretty darn boring! I don't have great memories of it, I remember dreading going there with my parents. Unlike the normal malls, it was home to stores that were boring to me. Very touristy. Now with the crusie ship terminal perhaps it would be possible to load up the visitors with junk from there, but there probably aren't enough visitors to really sustain it.

I say turn the whole thing into a giant pirate themed joint. Make the sucker feel like your in a pirate ship. Midevil times restaurant meets a pirate theme.

There used to be an arcade there also (I think that belonged to Mustang Amusements/Richard Porter, who also owned the arcade in the airport).

I agree it's disconnected from downtown. It might not have been a bad idea to bring the bLight rail into it instead of library site, but the city had to get rid of the library to buy a new one. Once it runs to the oceanfront the the rowdy crowd could hop between Oceanfront/Waterside.

[varider]

I think you guys should look at this video of downtown baltimore, it has some great footage of inner harbor and the there are so many tips norfolk could take from that city.. It makes me so jealous seeing how vibrant their downtown is compared to ours.

http://www.godowntownbaltimore.com/video/D...n_Now_Video.wmv

They even have a place called Bar Baltimore with the same exact logo and sign as Bar Norfolk.. I guess the deciding factor in why we get Waterside and they get Inner Harbor is because they have 10,000 residents and 90,000 jobs downtown. We have 4,000 residents and 30,000 jobs. Damn. Baltimore is way cooler than Norfolk. Look at those urban neighborhoods with row houses in the immediate downtown, although I guess we do have the row houses along Boush. The amount of construction going on.No white tees and baggy pants @ the club like is allowed in our version of Inner Harbor. I'm about to move lol.

I mean really, what makes Norfolk so far behind other cities? It's not like Baltimore's economy is that far ahead.. Only 2 fortune 500 companies.. We have a more active port.. Come on, Norfolk! Step your game up.

Sorry for my rant, I just want Norfolk to become a better city, that's all.

Edited July 21, 2009 by varider

[mikeas]

I think you guys should look at this video of downtown baltimore, it has some great footage of inner harbor and the there are so many tips norfolk could take from that city.. It makes me so jealous seeing how vibrant their downtown is compared to ours.

http://www.godowntownbaltimore.com/video/D...n_Now_Video.wmv

They even have a place called Bar Baltimore with the same exact logo and sign as Bar Norfolk.. I guess the deciding factor in why we get Waterside and they get Inner Harbor is because they have 10,000 residents and 90,000 jobs downtown. We have 4,000 residents and 30,000 jobs. Damn. Baltimore is way cooler than Norfolk. Look at those urban neighborhoods with row houses in the immediate downtown, although I guess we do have the row houses along Boush. The amount of construction going on.No white tees and baggy pants @ the club like is allowed in our version of Inner Harbor. I'm about to move lol.

I mean really, what makes Norfolk so far behind other cities? It's not like Baltimore's economy is that far ahead.. Only 2 fortune 500 companies.. We have a more active port.. Come on, Norfolk! Step your game up.

Sorry for my rant, I just want Norfolk to become a better city, that's all.

Norfolk used to have row houses... Torn down like everything else. Norfolk's problem is everything is trying to be upscale in a more blue collar salary metro. Downtown needs middle class residents.

[varider]

Norfolk used to have row houses... Torn down like everything else. Norfolk's problem is everything is trying to be upscale in a more blue collar salary metro. Downtown needs middle class residents.

Your so right. The whole metro in general is trying to be "upscale" and build "luxury" apartments. St. Paul's Quadrant is our one and only chance to develop a mixed income community for the middle class. I bet the downtown population would grow substantially if they built some normal, affordable apartments. Does the city think just because a few mixed use buildings have been built and light rail is on the way, It's NYC? When I get older I would like to live in downtown norfolk, but the state it's in now? Heckno.

Just curious, the row houses on boush street, are they rented or bought? And are they affordable?

[urbanlife]

I think you guys should look at this video of downtown baltimore, it has some great footage of inner harbor and the there are so many tips norfolk could take from that city.. It makes me so jealous seeing how vibrant their downtown is compared to ours.

http://www.godowntownbaltimore.com/video/D...n_Now_Video.wmv

They even have a place called Bar Baltimore with the same exact logo and sign as Bar Norfolk.. I guess the deciding factor in why we get Waterside and they get Inner Harbor is because they have 10,000 residents and 90,000 jobs downtown. We have 4,000 residents and 30,000 jobs. Damn. Baltimore is way cooler than Norfolk. Look at those urban neighborhoods with row houses in the immediate downtown, although I guess we do have the row houses along Boush. The amount of construction going on.No white tees and baggy pants @ the club like is allowed in our version of Inner Harbor. I'm about to move lol.

I mean really, what makes Norfolk so far behind other cities? It's not like Baltimore's economy is that far ahead.. Only 2 fortune 500 companies.. We have a more active port.. Come on, Norfolk! Step your game up.

Sorry for my rant, I just want Norfolk to become a better city, that's all.

The way I have always looked at it, Norfolk is a young city with an old history. When the city decided to level 90% of its downtown and inner neighborhoods for modern development, they also destroyed their city history and made it nothing more than a memory and started over in the 50s....which is why Norfolk feels like a city that started in the 50s rather than one of the first cities in this country like Baltimore or Boston.

[johnk812]

I think you guys should look at this video of downtown baltimore, it has some great footage of inner harbor and the there are so many tips norfolk could take from that city.. It makes me so jealous seeing how vibrant their downtown is compared to ours.

http://www.godowntownbaltimore.com/video/D...n_Now_Video.wmv

They even have a place called Bar Baltimore with the same exact logo and sign as Bar Norfolk.. I guess the deciding factor in why we get Waterside and they get Inner Harbor is because they have 10,000 residents and 90,000 jobs downtown. We have 4,000 residents and 30,000 jobs. Damn. Baltimore is way cooler than Norfolk. Look at those urban neighborhoods with row houses in the immediate downtown, although I guess we do have the row houses along Boush. The amount of construction going on.No white tees and baggy pants @ the club like is allowed in our version of Inner Harbor. I'm about to move lol.

I mean really, what makes Norfolk so far behind other cities? It's not like Baltimore's economy is that far ahead.. Only 2 fortune 500 companies.. We have a more active port.. Come on, Norfolk! Step your game up.

Sorry for my rant, I just want Norfolk to become a better city, that's all.

You really should consider the nature of this promo video. I bet you can make a Norfolk promo look just as appealing. With careful editing any hole in the wall can look sexy. It's all a matter of perspective too. I guarantee you nobody in Boston is drooling over this Baltimore video. haha! What does this say about Norfolk? I would guess that most of us who frequent this site already wants Norfolk to have a bigger and busier downtown. I certainly do. But really, I've been to Baltimore plenty of times ......and Washington DC is closer! Sorry Baltimore. You're pretty darn cool too! Baltimore doesn't have Virginia Beach kicking its you-know-what just next door either. That being said, I'm glad we have Virginia Beach so close. I love the beach!

In Virginia I've noticed a real city vs. country tug of war that I didn't see while living in Philly. People in Philly are city folks. People in Hampon Roads are a mix. Some of us are country folk. Some of us are city folk. If we were all city folk we wouldn't even be on this site and we'd never complain about the size of our cities. Our cities would be huge! But we have a lot of country folk here who simply don't like cities. I'd like to see a population count based on this country vs. city assumption. Sadly, I'm guessing very few of us 1.7 million HR residents are actually city minded.

Edited July 21, 2009 by johnk812

[varider]

I've been to Baltimore 2 or 3 times, seen oriole games and ravens games, been to inner harbor, and hopped on their light rail. I understand It was a promo video, but the sheer fact that they have 3X the amount of residents and employees, means that it's a lot of what I'd like downtown norfolk to become. I'm certainly a city boy, and I want norfolk to increase it's urban downtown population and employment so when I leave home and graduate college I can find myself a place downtown and live in a bustling, busy, downtown. Right now, it's eh.

If St. Paul's Quadrant is built out like it's supposed to be, our downtown population will increase to about 7,000 or so. We simply need more office buildings like DE that relocate to norfolk, build their own building, and move all of it's employees down there. By the time I'm ready to move, I'd like Norfolk to be busy as Baltimore, but is that possible?

Edited July 21, 2009 by varider

[brikkman]

In Virginia I've noticed a real city vs. country tug of war that I didn't see while living in Philly. People in Philly are city folks. People in Hampon Roads are a mix. Some of us are country folk. Some of us are city folk. If we were all city folk we wouldn't even be on this site and we'd never complain about the size of our cities. Our cities would be huge! But we have a lot of country folk here who simply don't like cities. I'd like to see a population count based on this country vs. city assumption. Sadly, I'm guessing very few of us 1.7 million HR residents are actually city minded.

I think you hit the nail on the head with those statements and you make a valid point about b-more and its competition status. What is so frustrating is we have the perfect make up so that every can get what they want, but each city has a one track mind. I can not really blame them though, but coupled with what the residents want and each city having its on agenda, gets us what we have now...I assume in about 20 to 30 years or so when the old heads die off, it will change, you'll find that younger people prefer the city atmosphere more. I would have loved to live in DT during my younger years then move to a deep part of Chesapeake or Suffolk when I get older.

I am also glad SP quad was brought with this as well. This is why it is very important that SPQ is done right. In the video they mentioned 2600 businesses in DT with 90,000. Not saying it can't be done, but I really do not think we can pull that off in our current business district, its just too tiny in that respect. This is why you hear people complain about the SPQ plan; it closes the expansion to have those additional businesses as being seen in DT. Essentially, SPQ under its current plan is nothing more than a modern freemason with shops. Okay, shops are businesses; however, I do not think that is what people are hoping for. Don't get me wrong, freemason is GREAT, I would love to live there too, but the point that I am trying to make is that their is NO economic growth happening in freemason. SPQ will be a mirror of that when what we want and need is a bigger more bustling DT. You can not bustle in a neighborhood.

Edited July 21, 2009 by brikkman

[Weaver24]

Alcohol permits will be revoked for two waterside spots (Bar Norfolk and Have A Nice Day Cafe)...and they will close down to TRY to remove the tarnished image of Waterside...

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/08/mayor-alco...nues-be-revoked

I still believe that Waterside should be privatized and redeveloped so it will flourish again. I wonder if they have replacements for these large spots. Also, can the city get itself in a lawsuit?

[brikkman]

I do not frequent those two clubs, never have (although I've been to bar Norfolk some years ago, but the midget through me off), but that is freaking stupid. I think they forgot that the people who frequent those establishments also pay to park which generates revenue....Besides, it is my understanding that Waterside does not exactly have people waiting in line to lease space. Take away those two business, waterside will loose anywhere from 40% to 60% of foot traffic, night life, and definitely parking. I think someone forgot to tell them that we are in a recession.

You know, when our city leaders do things like that, especially without a full plan, I question their understanding of a situation. I think it is one thing to say they want to clean up the image (whatever they think it should be), but it is a another thing to say we are going to pull the licenses of those two buisnesses and that is it. With out an additional plan attach to it, waterside will be yet again, a ghost town.

[mikeas]

If the city doesn't have something new lined up with contracts signed this is stupid. I don't frequent either club but its ridiculous to just pull a license like that. The city will be putting several dozen people out of work plus eliminating paying tenants in a building that is already subsidized by taxpayers.