Waterside District

[Mobius57]

I think waterside needs to be razed and something new and unique put in its place.

[varider]

It's kinda sad to see Bar Norfolk and HANDC leave, but the city HAS to have something up their sleeve, could they be in talks with a venue 10X better? How could they shut down to venues that are conistantly packed and leave the upstairs of waterside empty? I think something big could be coming. It just doesn't make sense

[urbanlife]

I think waterside needs to be razed and something new and unique put in its place.

Like what? And what could be put in place that couldnt reuse the building?

[mikeas]

So Bar Norfolk and Have A Nice Day Cafe opened up tonight anyway and are serving alcohol. Good for them. I'd say the best thing the city could do if they want them out of waterside is to help them relocate. Downtown Portsmouth could use a dance club... This will probably involve a long drawn out lawsuit.

[vaceltic]

It's kinda sad to see Bar Norfolk and HANDC leave, but the city HAS to have something up their sleeve, could they be in talks with a venue 10X better? How could they shut down to venues that are conistantly packed and leave the upstairs of waterside empty? I think something big could be coming. It just doesn't make sense

Agreed.

Sounds like if the city can get all the tenants out, they can do whatever they have planned for that land now.

[varider]

Honestly I think it's sweet that the clubs/ bars opened tonight and didn't bow down to the council.Unless the city does something to help them relocate to another part of the city they should not close up shop and layoff all the employees.I mean I understand at night it's kinda shady and gangsta or whatever in there but Bar Norfolk is a cool venue. It has a twin in Baltimore. I think the city needs to reevaluate the situation. I actually don't want them to tear down Waterside. I don't know what the downtown waterfront would be like without it.. I say Keep Waterside, turn Jillian's into Dave and Busters, put a Chick - Fil A in the food court, and continue with the family activities on the weekdays and weekends.. It seems like the city is acting kindd of childish. Just becaue a couple people get shot or whatever, that happens in every big city. The amount of taxable dollars spent on any given night is something the city shouldn't ignore. Make sure you have the police presence (which they do) and keep it rollin'. Downtown is busy as manhattan at night, don't mess it up.

Edited August 19, 2009 by varider

[Telmnstr]

Identity crisis. People don't want to accept the fact that the city has a high poverty rate. Pretend things are better and it will go away, they tell themselves.

I was thinking could it have something to do with the light rail? Maybe all the property owners are giddy thinking that the light rail will jack up their property values?

[brikkman]

Now, I do not usually believe people who speak on the radio about things (if they are not official), BUT there were a few individuals saying that they wanted to close the bars at waterside to make room for a condo development. One person said they have seen the paperwork. None of you guys broke the story, so I am assuming it is not true or someone is sleep at our ubranplanet wheel. How truthful is this?

[varider]

Now, I do not usually believe people who speak on the radio about things (if they are not official), BUT there were a few individuals saying that they wanted to close the bars at waterside to make room for a condo development. One person said they have seen the paperwork. None of you guys broke the story, so I am assuming it is not true or someone is sleep at our ubranplanet wheel. How truthful is this?

It wouldn't surprise me. Honestly the city must have something lined up because they had already decided they where going to renovate it and let the bars stay as long as they apply for the liquor liscences. Why would they all of the sudden shut them down? Something's up.

[Telmnstr]

I totally don't believe it. Condos are dead. Barr is sitting on 16 of them he can't sell at ALL. I don't think anyone will buy them ever. Harbor Heights can't sell their excess. Granby Tower full of fail. There is just no market for them. Under city appraisal is what most real estate for sale is.

The city is trying to change the image. They started to do concerts at Waterside on Sunday. Acoustic type stuff.

Both of those bars are owned by the same owner.

It's a who you know town. Most of the stuff on Granby St that lives is owned by a handful of people. One guy owns 4, one guy owns half the street (Inheritance paid for it, I heard), etc.

I don't believe condos at all.

I do believe gentrification.

I wouldn't be surprised if someone has something to go in there. Who knows what though.

[urbanlife]

Is it still called gentrification if there is nothing there to gentrify?

I have been working graveyard shifts this week while my company looks for someone to hire to fill that spot and I have been reading so many random things online. It is a shame the city tore down so much of its city, including all of the buildings along the waterfront. It would be much more interesting finding a reuse for a warehouse along the waterfront then to reuse Waterside....I have never really been a fan of any of the architecture along waterside.

I will say this, if Norfolk were to ever tear down Waterside and rebuild something new there, it would be a great chance for Norfolk to have a Bilboa moment and build something that attracts tourists from around the world to see...probably will never happen, but it is a nice though nonetheless.

[varider]

It's not really much that Norfolk could do..

Honestly I just wish we could trade Baltimore's Inner Harbor for Waterside Marketplace.

[Mobius57]

lol baltimore wouldn't give lol

[varider]

Town Point Park has been a hit. We need something done with Waterside. Come on guys! Think of ideas lol.

Here's mine:

It's a little off the wall.

Turn Waterside Marketplace as we know today into a real farmers market like it is designed to loook like. The Wednesday concerts can stay.

OR!!

Build a nice urban mixed use 5-6 story retail/ apartments with a Dave & Buster's, Outback, Hooter's, Joe's, Chick- Fil A, A nice sized Norfolk Tourist/ Visitor Center, A couple high- end shops, A small police kiosk, and an area devoted to kiddie activities. How's that sound? Brand new elevators, big open bathrooms, escalators, Some LED lights to match the park, light up the skyline like Jacksonville does, etc. All the restaurants would open up to the view of the harbor, It wouldn't be too expensive, and while it's not that IT thing that we desire to be a tourist trap, I'm sure locals would frequent if done correct.

Edited August 21, 2009 by varider

[Telmnstr]

What about the locals? Who cares about the tourists.

Do we want a ton of low paying jobs where our locals slave in crap shops?

If you're going to vacation, are you going to really pick Norfolk? People go to Virginia Beach because they want to see the ocean.

[urbanlife]

What about the locals? Who cares about the tourists.

Do we want a ton of low paying jobs where our locals slave in crap shops?

If you're going to vacation, are you going to really pick Norfolk? People go to Virginia Beach because they want to see the ocean.

Which is why it is such a shame that Norfolk destroyed so much of its own history...Norfolk could of easily been a history destination place. If it preserved some of its piers and if it preserved the area that MacArthur now sits on, which that area would of been the oldest part of town, which would of made for an amazing Old Town destination....but working with the present, the idea of tourism isnt a bad idea.

There is the Cruise Terminal on the west end of the park, it would make sense to give people a reason to walk to Waterside, as well as the rest of the city. But it would be important to do something that came out unique for the city, something that played with its history and location, rather than a redecorated tourist trap, which is what it has always been (and I say this knowing full well that I use to go there all the time when I was a kid with my family because it was one of the only places in Norfolk someone from VB would be willing to go to.)

I never understood the need for nightclubs in Waterside, Granby always seemed like a better street for late night activity like that, seeing that it is a much smaller two lane street and that it would make for easy bar hoping and give the area a late night atmosphere.

Waterside always seemed more fitting for something more high class...it does sit on the water and next to the park.

[brikkman]

What about the locals? Who cares about the tourists.

Do we want a ton of low paying jobs where our locals slave in crap shops?

If you're going to vacation, are you going to really pick Norfolk? People go to Virginia Beach because they want to see the ocean.

Was trying to convey the same message to my co worker, but people focusing on tourism. They need to give that up. This is a vacation town, not too may metro's are vacation town besides an Atlantic city or las vegas. When I think of vacation, I do not think Norfolk. The city of Norfolk has nothing to offer in that respect. The only thing touristy is nauticus and that is a one visit venue (so boring).

I believe Downtown

[Former Resident of HR]

The past few days really have me scratching my head. BIG TIME. I had a guest from out of town for a few days from a much larger city who had some comments about Norfolk. Biggest was "why is it so dead downtown?" Even after all the so-called development, Norfolk is one of the deadest cities I have seen. All this crap with Waterside drives that home. Norfolk is stuck in some massive time warp where they believe that the city council knows all and knows best. They continually do things that send a clear signal to businesses that "WE DON'T WANT YOU!" A decent city would give businesses a warning or a 90 day notice or whatever. Instead, they lock the doors to the businesses that pay taxes when the city os going broke. Even VB, with its conservative reputation, took a massive risk putting in the Town Center and it is paying off. They want Waterside to be a "family destination"? Why not close the doors to Hooters? Do they not know that the young people who they are trying to lure to downtown usually don't have kids or bring them to Waterside at 11pm-2am? This whole chapter has made me (and quite a few of my friends) see that the city of Norfolk is a complete joke. And we the taxpayers living here are the punchline.

[urbanlife]

The past few days really have me scratching my head. BIG TIME. I had a guest from out of town for a few days from a much larger city who had some comments about Norfolk. Biggest was "why is it so dead downtown?" Even after all the so-called development, Norfolk is one of the deadest cities I have seen. All this crap with Waterside drives that home. Norfolk is stuck in some massive time warp where they believe that the city council knows all and knows best. They continually do things that send a clear signal to businesses that "WE DON'T WANT YOU!" A decent city would give businesses a warning or a 90 day notice or whatever. Instead, they lock the doors to the businesses that pay taxes when the city os going broke. Even VB, with its conservative reputation, took a massive risk putting in the Town Center and it is paying off. They want Waterside to be a "family destination"? Why not close the doors to Hooters? Do they not know that the young people who they are trying to lure to downtown usually don't have kids or bring them to Waterside at 11pm-2am? This whole chapter has made me (and quite a few of my friends) see that the city of Norfolk is a complete joke. And we the taxpayers living here are the punchline.

Actually I would argue that the reason for being "so dead downtown" is a much bigger issue than closing a couple clubs at Waterside (which I have always thought having that as some club spot was a waste for the city), there are too many dead streets in downtown Norfolk...and by this, I mean there is limited sidewalk interactions with the buildings in downtown. Many of the buildings there were designed with a "single entrance mindset."

A better definition of a dead street is, if you can walk an entire block and there is only none or one entrance into the building or buildings along that block, then it is a dead block. It is better for a city to have more retail and restaurant access along the streets to create a more grounded interaction with its surroundings...which one could argue that the city couldnt handle that much retail activity, which I think it a load of crap, any healthy city could handle that. For starters, if there were more ground floor units, it would force down rental costs which would make it easier for businesses to open up downtown, once those units began to fill up, only then would rental prices begin to rise, but by the time this happens the streets would be full of activity because there would be reason for it.

But if you want to test this idea, walk down each street in downtown and count the number of commercial units along the first floors, as well as count the amount of access into each building in downtown....Plume St is a great example of this. My entire life of living there, I never once went to anything on Plume St, that street always seemed more of a service street to the businesses on Main and City Hall.

[Glassoul]

Town Point Park has been a hit. We need something done with Waterside. Come on guys! Think of ideas lol.

Here's mine:

It's a little off the wall.

Turn Waterside Marketplace as we know today into a real farmers market like it is designed to loook like. The Wednesday concerts can stay.

OR!!

Build a nice urban mixed use 5-6 story retail/ apartments with a Dave & Buster's, Outback, Hooter's, Joe's, Chick- Fil A, A nice sized Norfolk Tourist/ Visitor Center, A couple high- end shops, A small police kiosk, and an area devoted to kiddie activities. How's that sound? Brand new elevators, big open bathrooms, escalators, Some LED lights to match the park, light up the skyline like Jacksonville does, etc. All the restaurants would open up to the view of the harbor, It wouldn't be too expensive, and while it's not that IT thing that we desire to be a tourist trap, I'm sure locals would frequent if done correct.

I like the farmer's market idea, but you're giving up a lot of potential revenue if you go that way. Your other option sounds like what would be built if they were building Waterside today, rather than in 1982. It never worked, it won't work now. They want family atmosphere, so building a casino on the property wouldn't happen(not to mention all the legislative work that would have to be carried out to allow it), which was always my favorite idea. They should solicit ideas from the private sector about what to do with the space, with the intention of it being a public space for families. Norfolk doesn't have the money to redevelop it on its own anyway, so this would probably be the best option going forward to have something done sooner rather than later.

[varider]

Honestly I've been to more dead downtowns (Richmond comes to mind).. But that still doesn't make it any better. Our downtown only appears dead because all of the shoppers are in MacArthur.. You can't expect a downtown with 4,000 residents to look busy. I think that if MacArthur wasn't built (I know it was needed at the time), and we had storefront retail, our downtown would look much more vibrant and busy. And even with MacArthur there is a good pedestrian presence on Granby St and Main St. especially on weekdays. Also, Urbanlife has a great point. Granby St. is the only part of downtown where there is a good mix of commercial/ residential and the sidewalks are wide enough and open up to the businesses. I do think that Monticello will appear much more 'alive' with the completion of Wells Fargo. A big complaint of mine is that the high rises on Main St. do no address the street well, and buildings like BoA are pushed way off the street. On the weekeend, those buildings are just empty shells with no ground floor retail. The City has finally realized this IMO and you can see that with Wells Fargo. Bottomline, downtown appears dead at some times of the day because of our enclosed shopping mall.Without MacArthur, downtown would probably be very 'alive' and vibrant. But I would never say downtown norfolk is 'dead'. I like it.

I like the farmer's market idea, but you're giving up a lot of potential revenue if you go that way. Your other option sounds like what would be built if they were building Waterside today, rather than in 1982. It never worked, it won't work now. They want family atmosphere, so building a casino on the property wouldn't happen(not to mention all the legislative work that would have to be carried out to allow it), which was always my favorite idea. They should solicit ideas from the private sector about what to do with the space, with the intention of it being a public space for families. Norfolk doesn't have the money to redevelop it on its own anyway, so this would probably be the best option going forward to have something done sooner rather than later.

The city has really pissed me off with this one, that's all I can say.

Edited August 22, 2009 by varider

[Former Resident of HR]

Honestly I've been to more dead downtowns (Richmond comes to mind).. But that still doesn't make it any better. Our downtown only appears dead because all of the shoppers are in MacArthur.. You can't expect a downtown with 4,000 residents to look busy. I think that if MacArthur wasn't built (I know it was needed at the time), and we had storefront retail, our downtown would look much more vibrant and busy. And even with MacArthur there is a good pedestrian presence on Granby St and Main St. especially on weekdays. Also, Urbanlife has a great point. Granby St. is the only part of downtown where there is a good mix of commercial/ residential and the sidewalks are wide enough and open up to the businesses. I do think that Monticello will appear much more 'alive' with the completion of Wells Fargo. A big complaint of mine is that the high rises on Main St. do no address the street well, and buildings like BoA are pushed way off the street. On the weekeend, those buildings are just empty shells with no ground floor retail. The City has finally realized this IMO and you can see that with Wells Fargo. Bottomline, downtown appears dead at some times of the day because of our enclosed shopping mall.Without MacArthur, downtown would probably be very 'alive' and vibrant. But I would never say downtown norfolk is 'dead'. I like it.

Well even that was an issue. MacArthur during the day is pretty dead as well. My friend asked, "does this place pick up during the weekend?" and I don't really know bc I don't usually go there. Saying there is a good presence of pedestrians is really a stretch. Street level retail is one of the major things missing, this is true. But I doubt that Norfolk city has enough brains (or b*alls) to attract retail that people will shop downtown. It really seems that good things happen to Norfolk by purely accidental circumstances and that if we had leaders with some foresight, we could do so much more. Oh well... maybe in 20 years Norfolk will be better but by then so will everywhere else.

[brikkman]

I doubt they will extend the park were watersides sits now, but a hotel or condos are likely. I hate to see it go, but waterside will die again. They have a jewery shop, THE GYM DT. Jillians, Joes, outback, photography, hooters (will probably get forced out too), couple of vendors, a cheesey dress shop, a little store, new underwear shop (will die quick I promise you), and a couple of other things. Oh well, it was good while it lasted. If they seek the opinions of the public, they will say make it a park or a chuckie cheese for their kids.

[varider]

Well even that was an issue. MacArthur during the day is pretty dead as well. My friend asked, "does this place pick up during the weekend?" and I don't really know bc I don't usually go there. Saying there is a good presence of pedestrians is really a stretch. Street level retail is one of the major things missing, this is true. But I doubt that Norfolk city has enough brains (or b*alls) to attract retail that people will shop downtown. It really seems that good things happen to Norfolk by purely accidental circumstances and that if we had leaders with some foresight, we could do so much more. Oh well... maybe in 20 years Norfolk will be better but by then so will everywhere else.

Well during the day downtown is full of pedestrians (40,000). On the weekend MacArthur is packed with shoppers, moviegoers, etc. I was there the other day and could barely find parking in the garage. I had to go to the roof. I don't think it's always as bad as you may have seen it. Whenever I'm there (usually Sunday morning or weekday around lunch) it always seems pretty busy. I went to Richmond on a Saturday and walked around the entire city and didn't see but about 5 people. Norfolk is 5X as busy as Richmond. It's very rare to find a city with heavy foot traffic 24-7.. Now I'm not saying that Norfolk is perfect or we have a very busy downtown, I'm just saying that it's not normally as dead as you may have seen. Does anyone else agree?

I doubt they will extend the park were watersides sits now, but a hotel or condos are likely. I hate to see it go, but waterside will die again. They have a jewery shop, THE GYM DT. Jillians, Joes, outback, photography, hooters (will probably get forced out too), couple of vendors, a cheesey dress shop, a little store, new underwear shop (will die quick I promise you), and a couple of other things. Oh well, it was good while it lasted. If they seek the opinions of the public, they will say make it a park or a chuckie cheese for their kids.

I know you guys don't like when I reference the 2020 plan, but part of the plan is to extend the esplande to Harbor Park and build shops/ retail/ apartments/ condos along the waterfront.

[vdogg]

Now, I do not usually believe people who speak on the radio about things (if they are not official), BUT there were a few individuals saying that they wanted to close the bars at waterside to make room for a condo development. One person said they have seen the paperwork. None of you guys broke the story, so I am assuming it is not true or someone is sleep at our ubranplanet wheel. How truthful is this?

Aint no way. It'll take a long time for the economy to reach the point where we can move condos like that again. If this were even close to true, GT and the Westin would be under construction right now.