Waterside District

[brikkman]

Aint no way. It'll take a long time for the economy to reach the point where we can move condos like that again. If this were even close to true, GT and the Westin would be under construction right now.

Well, hope you are right. Leaving it up to the city is a bad idea. They were the same ones who said build waterside with a stage and didn't provide any acts...........

[Glassoul]

I doubt they will extend the park were watersides sits now, but a hotel or condos are likely. I hate to see it go, but waterside will die again. They have a jewery shop, THE GYM DT. Jillians, Joes, outback, photography, hooters (will probably get forced out too), couple of vendors, a cheesey dress shop, a little store, new underwear shop (will die quick I promise you), and a couple of other things. Oh well, it was good while it lasted. If they seek the opinions of the public, they will say make it a park or a chuckie cheese for their kids.

I would put a <1% of condos going there. I could see the pubiic outrage that would ensue if that space was turned over for private use. Besides, who the hell would want to live right next to TPP, especially in the income bracket you would targeting with a development like that?

[Mobius57]

Wait, what?

[vdogg]

Besides, who the hell would want to live right next to TPP, especially in the income bracket you would targeting with a development like that?

When I went to WMC in Miami a few years back, they had several new condo towers (under construction) overlooking Bicentennial Park. I can definitely see the allure to people wanting to be in the thick of things, I just don't see that being the case here. I'm sure the city has some plans for TPP, I just don't think that condos are realistic at this point.

[Padman]

I think the City might want to think about short term and long term outcomes with this problem. Short term, they are cash strapped and investment is reined in by frightened lenders. No one really knows when that will change, but I'd bet on a at least a couple more years of tight money. They could treat Waterside as an extension of Town Point Park. They might try to land a finer restaurant overlooking the water, bringing back the best of the Phillips era, then open up much of the lower level for indoor festivals and concerts--especially useful during inclement weather. I don't see how they could compete with the mall for retail, but there might be some limited shopping that is geared towards day workers, the cruise ship/Nauticus complex and cultural events. A few services for residents, such as gyms might work. Kayak and canoe rentals might also help bring some new activity (if allowable).

Long term, mixed use is the flavor of the day. Perhaps we'll see some river oriented commercial on lower levels, with hotel and residential on upper levels of some new structure. I hope that public uses remain, but that should be an easy location to sell someday.

[brikkman]

See, I would like to think that they are not that stupid to throw 400grand at the building only to tear it down later or next year well knowing something like that was going to take place.

[Telmnstr]

Didn't you see? They are replacing the bars with family puppet shows.

[brikkman]

Didn't you see? They are replacing the bars with family puppet shows.

lol

That's cool, but what happens when another incident happens in the parking deck???? They going to blame on the ppppppuuupppeettttsss, blame it on the pupupuppupppuuutttesss puppets eh!

Edited August 24, 2009 by brikkman

[ronsmytheiii]

I personally would like to see a micro-brewery restaurant/bar in Waterside, it is still drinking but higher end

[Weaver24]

I was in the area this evening and went into Waterside. It is very depressing and still has a stale and unpleasant odor/atmosphere there. I wish Norfolk would just sell this to the highest bidder than keep pouring money into this money pit. It had a few people there but not many and some teenagers were just hanging around as well. Its sad that this facility has gotten so bad and its adjacent to the newly renovated Town Point Park.

[Mobius57]

The need a building like this. Mabe an indoor park or (small) waterpark with shops and festivities. Bright light and gleaming architechture everywhere. And hold the biggest party in Hampton Roads on fridays to celebrate the weekend. A big stage would be in it too for the parties.

Also about TPP, i was dissapointed by the stage they have. They could have created something much bigger and more amazing for 11 million..

[urbanlife]

oddly enough, 11 million doesnt buy you that much anymore. Once the technical things eat up their chunk of the money, there is little left for design with just 11 million. Sad, but true.

I do think there should be something more than just a mall at the waterfront. Once upon a time, I would of thought the waterfront area (after the city took a happy bulldozer to it all) would of become something in the same mindset as Battery Park in NYC (granted on a much smaller scale) with high end condos, office buildings, hotel, and a waterfront park....which the only thing the city did not do is the high end condos, which would of gone where waterside is now.

Though with that said, I dont totally think that would be the best idea for the city now, I think that same idea though would be perfect for the piers at Fort Norfolk.

The city needs to look at harbor cities across the world (not just Baltimore) to see what others are doing (including Baltimore because they have done alot with their harbor) to see what the next moves for the city should be, how much it would cost to do everything, how to break that up into phases, and the ultimate goals they wish to achieve.

[brikkman]

Well, just got back from my family trip to Bmore and I have some interesting news. Its been some years since I've been there, I want to say 01, 02 and at the time, I do not think I ever visited the harbor in this respect. But we stayed right on the bay and had a chance to check out everything. Odd thing is, I saw bmore's version of waterside and I'm glad to report that the smells are equal or even worst than Norfolks. The buildings are near damn identical (the same guy designed them) and I think the smell is a byproduct of the design. I swear, it smelled identical to waterside (my wife agreed). The bathrooms smelled terrible as well. We went in three different times during our stay, morning noon and late evening. The main difference obviously is that it is very bustling around there. This is Saturday and Sunday all day long. I saw the Phillips, hooters (lol), and pretty much all the places everyone else talked about. I did not feel the family vibe, but I didn't necessarily feel drunken stuper either. With that being said, I would not want our waterside to mimic that at all. It would be better to destroy the entire thing and start over like some other people suggest. Its dark and gloomy just like waterside. For those who have never been, think waterside but busier and more open shops and places to eat. But we still can take note to a few things they have done (like provide entertainment, joyful area employee's, police presence, and a done of options and water paddle boat rentals).

Well that's my take, I have pictures, not sure if it is appropriate to post here, but let me know.

GONE!!!

[ronsmytheiii]

Although the city nabbed a victory last week when a judge ruled that two Waterside nightclubs should remain padlocked indefinitely, some city officials say they wish they had handled the ordeal differently.

Many among the general public, they say, feel that Bar Norfolk and Have a Nice Day Cafe were treated unfairly.

"We're getting beaten up," Councilman Barclay C. Winn said. "Even good restaurant owners are saying to me, 'I know you'd never shut me down, but it looks bad.' "

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/08/norfolk-re...-waterside-bars

[jeffconn]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/08/norfolk-re...-waterside-bars

"We're getting beaten up," Councilman Barclay C. Winn said. "Even good restaurant owners are saying to me, 'I know you'd never shut me down, but it looks bad.' "

Actually, they probably don't know that they're safe. The 2 Waterside bars were considered okay by the city in June. But they were shut down. And the Granby Theater owner probably thought he was safe too, but in 2007 a patron shot someone outside it, and Norfolk went after the Granby and shut it down. So your restaurant isn't safe if there is violence anywhere around your restaurant, whether or not your establishment is responsible for it.

For what it's worth, why couldn't Norfolk just have not renewed the 2 bars' leases when they came due? It would have been a lot less embarrassing and less costly for Norfolk.

[Telmnstr]

I hope our city doesn't have to pay them $16 million dollars because of their stupid mistake. Perhaps if the bars win against the city, the citizens can sue the politicians that cost us?

[skylinefan]

I think it is abundantly clear to most people that the city goofed in closing down Have a Nice Day and Bar Norfolk. They might win in court but they are losing in public opinion. More importantly the business community is wondering who is going to be next to be shut down by this bumbling city agency. I would back down and let these bars reopen with some restrictions in place. I hope for the sake of the city and Waterside that such a compromise is reached during arbitration.

[varider]

Well, just got back from my family trip to Bmore and I have some interesting news. Its been some years since I've been there, I want to say 01, 02 and at the time, I do not think I ever visited the harbor in this respect. But we stayed right on the bay and had a chance to check out everything. Odd thing is, I saw bmore's version of waterside and I'm glad to report that the smells are equal or even worst than Norfolks. The buildings are near damn identical (the same guy designed them) and I think the smell is a byproduct of the design. I swear, it smelled identical to waterside (my wife agreed). The bathrooms smelled terrible as well. We went in three different times during our stay, morning noon and late evening. The main difference obviously is that it is very bustling around there. This is Saturday and Sunday all day long. I saw the Phillips, hooters (lol), and pretty much all the places everyone else talked about. I did not feel the family vibe, but I didn't necessarily feel drunken stuper either. With that being said, I would not want our waterside to mimic that at all. It would be better to destroy the entire thing and start over like some other people suggest. Its dark and gloomy just like waterside. For those who have never been, think waterside but busier and more open shops and places to eat. But we still can take note to a few things they have done (like provide entertainment, joyful area employee's, police presence, and a done of options and water paddle boat rentals).

Well that's my take, I have pictures, not sure if it is appropriate to post here, but let me know.

GONE!!!

In my opinion,

It all boils down to downtown population. 10,000 people live in downtown Baltimore. 4,000 live in downtown Norfolk. 100,000+ people work in downtown Baltimore, 30, 000+ work in downtown Norfolk. More people = More retail = more activity = better downtown. Because other then the aquarium, there's no difference between our waterfront and baltimore's, but Baltimore's is obviously more active and busy (unless there's a festival going on in Norfolk)

[Weaver24]

Well after reading the article and numerous comments on pilotonline.com...I think the city council screwed up. Now I been in Waterside last week and the place is VERY depressing...but the city didn't handle this properly nor did they manage Waterside properly. Some on pilotonline.com are requesting that the council and Regina Williams to step down from their positions since they are further harming the reputation of Norfolk and that they should pay for legal fees because the citizens of Norfolk did not ask for the council's poor decisions...but we did vote them in so we are to blame. I still say and will always say that the city has no business managing this facility and that they should privatize this area and make some lucrative, attractive and respectable development that would serve locals, tourists, and complement the newly renovated Town Point Park. With the results of the last few presidential elections, I see Norfolk is a more democratic city and prefers government intervention, even if it isn't positive.

Edited September 1, 2009 by Weaver24

[skylinefan]

In my opinion,

It all boils down to downtown population. 10,000 people live in downtown Baltimore. 4,000 live in downtown Norfolk. 100,000+ people work in downtown Baltimore, 30, 000+ work in downtown Norfolk. More people = More retail = more activity = better downtown. Because other then the aquarium, there's no difference between our waterfront and baltimore's, but Baltimore's is obviously more active and busy (unless there's a festival going on in Norfolk)

Helps to also be only 45 minutes from Washington, DC and it's 20 million visitors per year. Alot of the activity you see in Baltimore are tourist from the nations capital.

[brikkman]

In my opinion,

It all boils down to downtown population. 10,000 people live in downtown Baltimore. 4,000 live in downtown Norfolk. 100,000+ people work in downtown Baltimore, 30, 000+ work in downtown Norfolk. More people = More retail = more activity = better downtown. Because other then the aquarium, there's no difference between our waterfront and baltimore's, but Baltimore's is obviously more active and busy (unless there's a festival going on in Norfolk)

I think we touched on this a little before regarding the SPQ discussion, but you believe it is about working and living in DT. I personally believe it is immediately about the city

[varider]

I think we touched on this a little before regarding the SPQ discussion, but you believe it is about working and living in DT. I personally believe it is immediately about the city's ability to attract locals to the DT Norfolk (7 city locals). The perception is that we must have people live in work in the area to achieve this will be decades to come. What Norfolk needs to do is be proactive about attracting people to come, work and play in DT. As well as attract businesses to relocate here.

I think it's both. Hampton Roads is a metro where a person could stay in their own city or neighborhood without ever leaving. There's nothing you can do in downtown Norfolk that you can't do in Virginia Beach or Chesapeake other than watch minor league sports, go to museums, and watch plays. That brings some people DT, but isn't the type of draw needed to bring suburbanites out of their comfort zone. Cities like Baltimore are the only fun place to be in their metro. Center City is where you will find all the companies, universities, upwardly mobile residents, whatever the hell that creative class is, museums, sporting venues, banks, government offices,nightlife etc. In Hampton Roads you can find all these things scattered throughout the region. We have Dollar Tree in a 100 acre complex in Chesapeake and Stihl and their suburban headquarters in VB. More people downtown = more retail = vibrant, active downtown. Our downtown is not big enough to support the retail and attractions that the majority of us on UP would like to have. The surrounding cities are too big and have too much for the residents to venture all the way to downtown Norfolk. We need a balance between that big local 'draw' your talking about and the densely populated downtown I'm talking about. On any given day in downtown Baltimore there are over 150,000 people. Downtown Norfolk is lucky to have 50,000.

[brikkman]

I think it's both. Hampton Roads is a metro where a person could stay in their own city or neighborhood without ever leaving. There's nothing you can do in downtown Norfolk that you can't do in Virginia Beach or Chesapeake other than watch minor league sports, go to museums, and watch plays. That brings some people DT, but isn't the type of draw needed to bring suburbanites out of their comfort zone. Cities like Baltimore are the only fun place to be in their metro. Center City is where you will find all the companies, universities, upwardly mobile residents, whatever the hell that creative class is, museums, sporting venues, banks, government offices,nightlife etc. In Hampton Roads you can find all these things scattered throughout the region. We have Dollar Tree in a 100 acre complex in Chesapeake and Stihl and their suburban headquarters in VB. More people downtown = more retail = vibrant, active downtown. Our downtown is not big enough to support the retail and attractions that the majority of us on UP would like to have. The surrounding cities are too big and have too much for the residents to venture all the way to downtown Norfolk. We need a balance between that big local 'draw' your talking about and the densely populated downtown I'm talking about. On any given day in downtown Baltimore there are over 150,000 people. Downtown Norfolk is lucky to have 50,000.

I just can't see condo and apt towers all over the place and no business to support it.live in DT, work in VA.beacH?

i know some people do it, but is that likely to happen?

[varider]

I just can't see condo and apt towers all over the place and no business to support it.live in DT, work in VA.beacH?

i know some people do it, but is that likely to happen?

No it's not likely to happen. There are 50,000 jobs between downtown and medical center. But ony 4000 residents..

Your right about needing the businesses. Look at Charlotte. Bank of America builds their hq and now they have a 50 story condo tower. First come the jobs, then come the residents.

Edited September 3, 2009 by varider

[brikkman]

I think in the long run, if waterside was torn down and brought back up under the management of Norfolk, the same results will happen in another 10 20 years. Actually they do not need another building, that just have to fuel people

Edited September 4, 2009 by brikkman