Waterside District

[funstadt]

I think what Waterside needs is a concept/identity that it can stick with. I feel that right now (err, 4 years ago the last time I went in there), it's hosting whatever it can get (clubs/bars, a couple of restaurants, a couple of shops, and a food court). I think Waterside could become a major activity center again if it BECOMES something. It could become a place for tourist-catering mega food/bar chains like Hard Rock, Planet Hollywood, ESPN Zone, Fox Sports Grill, etc. Think Baltimore Power Plant. Of course the place would have to see a major overhaul before it could attract such tenants. Or we could tear the walls off the thing, get some fresh air in there (literally and figuratively) and make it into something like Pike Place Market in Seattle. It could become THE destination in the region to get fresh produce, seafood, flowers, baked goods, and Norfolk t-shirts (do people buy Norfolk t-shirts?).

Part of the problem is urban design. Waterside has HUGE advantages with Town Point Park and the marina being right there, but it's annoying for people elsewhere in downtown to cross Waterside Drive. The Waterside Drive area just is not an inviting or intimate urban environment. The building setbacks, driveways, etc. make it a strange place to walk around. I'd love to see Bank of America let go of its drive-thru (how many downtown banks need drive-thrus??) and something be developed between BOA and Waterside Drive that leads pedestrians toward and then across the Drive. It wouldn't have to be huge, just something there so you don't feel you're leaving downtown to get to the waterfront.

excellent post, lammius. That strip of property where the BOA drive-thru teller sits offers an amazing opportunity for transitioning between the tall scale of the towers and the low scale along the river at Waterside and Town Point Park. The bridge to Waterside is ok, but too married to the parking garage. The new crosswalk at Granby is functional, but weak. The challenge would be to do something with that site that maintains the greenspace aspect that it currently has while introducing transitionary building/bridge/object that connects to the other side of waterside drive. I'd like to see an open competition or charette to identify some thoughts about what could go there because I don't think it's an easy problem.

As problematic as Waterside is, it still seems to me to be something that could be adapted to bring back the liveliness of its early days. IMHO, the key to this is right there on the mural that is painted on its glass wall that faces Waterside Drive. That thing has always cracked me up, as it says - "Hey, look what you're missing now that a building has blocked the view to the river!" Let's blow a big chunk out of the middle of the Waterside "festival marketplace" building and open up a view to the river and to Downtown Portsmouth - it will look amazing with the ferry traveling back and forth, and sailboats gliding past, and cruiseships turning around in the harbor, and the big ships going into drydock. The exterior open space would tie to the open space across the street (redeveloped BOA drive-thru site). Some new shops/restaraunts could front on that open space, with lovely festive showy facades. Lots of lighting and spectacle to illuminate the throngs of people that will gather there to wait in line for the restaraunts. A hotel/office/condo/observation/space tower or two could be built above the edges of this new plaza, framing the views to the river even more, and lifting the scale up, while at the same time not making an even greater separation from downtown and the riverfront (like the endless line of slab hotels do btwn Atlantic Avenue and the boardwalk in VB). Best of all worlds for waterside! Thanks for the inspiration, lammius. We get to have some fun demolition, while at the same time re-using/re-imagining existing building stock, and getting towers we all have a fetish for, etc. Just don't build condos, or some of the other people who like to post on here will be really really mad.

[Sky06]

Ok. Here's what I think I'm hearing:

1. Keep the same basic concept (restaurants, clubs, a few shops), but make the building more open and inviting. Maybe open air, maybe open a section in middle to see the water, maybe an atrium roof that brings in light. Create some cool lighting for night. And improve lighting in the park.

2. Create a connection to the rest of downtown, particularly the mall and Granby. Trash the drive-thru at BOA and build a cool walkway (moving?) from BOA courtyard to Waterside second floor. Create pedestrian friendly sidewalks from either side of the parking garage toward Waterside Ave. Maybe even create a walkway directly from Harbor Park along the waterfront so people can grab a cactus juice after the game. Maybe some oputdoor cafes facing Waterside Drive. Sure, it's not as sexy as looking at the water, but watching the hustle and bustle and showing people having food and drinks might just make you stop and park.

3. Create a more family friendly atmosphere with more events on the interior stage. Hell, bring back the photo booth that was there years ago. Having more families certainly couldn't hurt. Maybe a deal if you buy dinner at Waterside, you get into Nauticus at half price. Or 4 in Nauticus gets 1 meal free. Or for the adults, show your Tides ticket and get a buck off a beer at Hooters.

Here are some crazy ideas that might be worth considering:

1. Run a ferry from somewhere at Freemason and/or Ft. Norfolk directly to Waterside. Gives Freemason and Ghent residents quicker access.

2. Design a maze or sculpture garden at Town Point Park as part of the renovation. And don't forget the always popular signature fountain. Imagine spending your lunch hour sitting on the edge and living La Dolce Vita.

3. Redesign the marina to make it more inviting to visit. Add a small restuarant like the Deck in Portsmouth.

4. Combine the festival marketplace with a new main library! Talk about a public space.

5. finally, get rid of the ugly dark blue. Make the color brighter and more inviting.

Edited May 23, 2008 by Sky06

[D_C]

Here is a story in the Richmond rag about Waterside. Enjoy.

http://www.inrich.com/cva/ric/news.apx.-co...05-29-0153.html

[lil-bear]

Norfolk pays 300K

We knew this would happen!

[lil-bear]

Norfolk pays 300K

We knew this would happen!

[Sky06]

Norfolk pays 300K

We knew this would happen!

Small prioce to pay. In fact, half the people say this won't pay for anything; the other half say the payments are way overdone. which is it? I stand by belief that what's there now if far better than 99.9% of the recommendations: flea market, theme park, nothing, etc. etc. A lot of people think Norfolk needs more attractions. Do they mean like:

Nauticus

Wisconsin

MacArthur Memorial

MacArthur Mall

Norva

Norfolk Southern Museum

Wells Theater (Va. Stage Company)

Governor's School Black Box Theater

Roper Theater (more performing arts)

D'Art Center

The Pagoda and Oriental Garden

Chysler Hall

Scope

Harrison Opera House

Chrysler Museum

Historic houses, churches, and gardens

Legends Walk of Fame

American Rover, Spirit of Norfolk, Victory Rover, Ferries

AND

Festivals up to your ass!

Edited July 23, 2008 by Sky06

[NSUREDD]

Did Blackfin close????

[wrldcoupe4]

There was an inside business article stating that it abruptly closed last week without any explanation.

[spiker3]

There was an inside business article stating that it abruptly closed last week without any explanation.

That's unusual, Blackfinn was the newest entertainment tenant (if i'm not mistaken) that's pretty abrupt. Another economy victim?

[Sky06]

That's unusual, Blackfinn was the newest entertainment tenant (if i'm not mistaken) that's pretty abrupt. Another economy victim?

Doubtful. They're probably just reacting to the "Tear Waterside down" hype.

[spiker3]

Doubtful. They're probably just reacting to the "Tear Waterside down" hype.

Two months ago while i was interviewing with different companies, one of my head hunters gave me a rundown on Jillians. They're located in Charlotte, so not on site, but in their location profile it said inspite of the uncertainty with the venue, regardless Jillians was commited to the market for at least the next decade; specifically, even if they closed or lost their lease, they would for certain open elsewhere. Obviously every company is different, but that's the take that Jillians has at least.

[Weaver24]

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/09/waterside-...eyes-its-future

The link above is another article concerning Waterside Marketplace. I personally think a private company should own Waterside...not sure if the city (especially Norfolk at that) should own it. With the economy, remodling/reinventing Waterside will take many years if it ever transpires. Blackfinn Restaurant and Saloon closed and I hope others don't follow suit but even the city manager said if nothing is done...then Waterside will hurt even more. It's sad how Waterside has lost its position as a very viable option.

[brikkman]

I just hope they do not turn the area into greenspace. That is a very viable comment with all things considered.

[Leila]

I think what Waterside needs is a concept/identity that it can stick with. I feel that right now (err, 4 years ago the last time I went in there), it's hosting whatever it can get (clubs/bars, a couple of restaurants, a couple of shops, and a food court). I think Waterside could become a major activity center again if it BECOMES something. It could become a place for tourist-catering mega food/bar chains like Hard Rock, Planet Hollywood, ESPN Zone, Fox Sports Grill, etc. Think Baltimore Power Plant. Of course the place would have to see a major overhaul before it could attract such tenants. Or we could tear the walls off the thing, get some fresh air in there (literally and figuratively) and make it into something like Pike Place Market in Seattle. It could become THE destination in the region to get fresh produce, seafood, flowers, baked goods, and Norfolk t-shirts (do people buy Norfolk t-shirts?).

Part of the problem is urban design. Waterside has HUGE advantages with Town Point Park and the marina being right there, but it's annoying for people elsewhere in downtown to cross Waterside Drive. The Waterside Drive area just is not an inviting or intimate urban environment. The building setbacks, driveways, etc. make it a strange place to walk around. I'd love to see Bank of America let go of its drive-thru (how many downtown banks need drive-thrus??) and something be developed between BOA and Waterside Drive that leads pedestrians toward and then across the Drive. It wouldn't have to be huge, just something there so you don't feel you're leaving downtown to get to the waterfront.

I completely agree with you. I had the Baltimore Harborfront in mind when I was thinking of this. I think it is a fabulous location for a town center/mixed use development if they would utilize the the space across the street. And, maybe it does need to be privately owned if the city continues to mismanage. I'm not sure when the downward spiral began (just moved here from NoVA), but the property has fabulous potential with shops. And whats with all of those little eateries?? Do they really get the foot traffic they need during lunch hour? I don't know because they are out of the way from my office. I think Norfolk needs to take sometime visiting riverwalks at other cities and take some notes on the ingredients of success. . .or maybe they already have.

Oh and while I know the little park nearby is used for special events. . .it is not a very welcoming place at any other time. What is up with that?

[VAGATOR]

I was just thinking about this the other day, but does anybody else think if Waterside Drive was narrowed to two lanes and Waterside was brought more towards the rest of downtown would help the situation? Under this scenario, Waterside would be completely redone.

[spiker3]

I was just thinking about this the other day, but does anybody else think if Waterside Drive was narrowed to two lanes and Waterside was brought more towards the rest of downtown would help the situation? Under this scenario, Waterside would be completely redone.

Waterside Dr is already two lanes in front of Waterside, unless you're talking about removing the valet, street parking, turn lane onto Martin Lane, and opposite side turn lane.

If the city tears down Waterside, they would not build another one. While i don't see it happening, they'd solicit proposals ala VB with the Dome site, and go for a Kansas City Power Light district feel in the scenario you're discussing (closing and moving roads) in my opinion

[urbanfan]

Waterside Dr is already two lanes in front of Waterside, unless you're talking about removing the valet, street parking, turn lane onto Martin Lane, and opposite side turn lane.

If the city tears down Waterside, they would not build another one. While i don't see it happening, they'd solicit proposals ala VB with the Dome site, and go for a Kansas City Power Light district feel in the scenario you're discussing (closing and moving roads) in my opinion

I believe he means one lane in each direction, for a total of two lanes.

[VAGATOR]

I believe he means one lane in each direction, for a total of two lanes.

Yea, from the Wisconsin to the Sheraton Hotel.

If the city tears down Waterside, they would not build another one. While i don't see it happening, they'd solicit proposals ala VB with the Dome site, and go for a Kansas City Power Light district feel in the scenario you're discussing (closing and moving roads) in my opinion

I wouldn't mind this. I feel pumping millions into Waterside in its current forum is a waste. Let the private sector propose ideas and bid.

[scm]

Yea, from the Wisconsin to the Sheraton Hotel.

Waterside is a major arterial from Hampton Blvd (EVMS and NGH) to 264 to VB -- in both directions. Brambleton, with its numerous intersections, isn't a suitable alternative. St. Paul's backs up with 464 southbound on ramp traffic.

Necking down Waterside, in a hope to solve some un-defined problem at the Market, is like shooting your foot off to fix a blister.

[Telmnstr]

I thought waterside at least broke even?

Leave it the way it is... Just make sure that people on the outside know what establishments are there. Won't all the traffic from the new convention center drive sales there?

[skylinefan]

I agree Tel leave Waterside alone, I think they have a working mix of restaurants, retail, bars and clubs. I do think it is worthwhile to upgrade Waterside though. I always thought that Waterside should be opened up with alot more glass so that there are alot more water views from inside the marketplace. I envision replacing the walls that face Waterside Dr., Townpoint Park and the Elizabeth River with glass something like an I.M. Pei building (JFK Library, the Newseum in DC). More glass more water views from inside will make it a much more iconic structure for Downtown. But I pray that they do no tear it down to make way for another condo project or hotel.

[Leila]

Waterside is a major arterial from Hampton Blvd (EVMS and NGH) to 264 to VB -- in both directions. Brambleton, with its numerous intersections, isn't a suitable alternative. St. Paul's backs up with 464 southbound on ramp traffic.

Necking down Waterside, in a hope to solve some un-defined problem at the Market, is like shooting your foot off to fix a blister.

If that won't work, then maybe close it down for a little while on sundays? They can easly make that space into an open market like they do for special events. A flea market/farmers market would work great.

[rusthebuss]

If that won't work, then maybe close it down for a little while on sundays? They can easly make that space into an open market like they do for special events. A flea market/farmers market would work great.

There should never be a Flea Market Downtown. Maybe a farmers market

[Telmnstr]

There should never be a Flea Market Downtown. Maybe a farmers market

Not sure who on here is Mix-alot fans (I know someone else mentioned Ice Cube's Ghettobird)..

But I have this whole vision of Swap Meet Louie when flea market in waterside is mentioned.

[Weaver24]

Another article about Waterside below...

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/01/norfolks-w...t-temporary-fix

I believe they should tear down or completely renovate the facility instead of "putting a bandaid on a scar." With the renovations at Town Point Park..Waterside should complement and harmonize with the newly renovated park. Also since so many food court tenants and the chinese restaurant closed....they should sell Waterside to a private company since the government is mismanaging this. It's sad that such a nice property is being used inappropriately and is underutilized. They also need to attract tenants that will bring in the foot traffic and clientel that would be willing to spend money. The city is also spending too much money to let Waterside stay afloat.