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Waterside District


umterp03

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Retailers in Baltimore Include: The Cheesecake Factory, Johnny Rockets, Five Guys, Ann Taylor, Banana Republic, Gap, Victoria's Secret, Bath & Body Works, bebe, Fire & Ice, J.Crew, Starbucks, Brooks Brothers, Urban Outfitters, Uno Chicago Grill, and Swarovski.

Baltimore must be doing something right. But I don't think Norfolk has anything in mind other than a revitalized Waterside Marketplace. In my opinion there is no point anymore. I say tear it down. Build a mixed use tower with a plethora of retail NOT ENCLOSED INSIDE like it currently is.

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The city kicked the businesses out of waterside to drive tenants to MacArthur. I believe the rents were much higher at MacArthur, so many (all?) of the businesses quit.

I can not see why and/or when they decided to compare in terms of competition, waterside and macArthur. They are/were two different things. I personally think to have retail as a core competency at waterside is a dead 199x mindset (believe pe touch on that). Honestly, look around, there are a lot of unmanage things in Norfolk, this was one of them.

It needed to adjust for the time. I think another poster mention what B-more has, if you think about what we have done in twenty years....added a jillians, hooters, and an outback (I wouldn't consider bar Norfolk and have a nice day cafe in this analogy). It did not progress into anything more.

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Well what do you guys think about tearing down waterside all together. Selling it to a developer so he can build a skyscraper(mixed use; 30 floors) with about 750000 sq. feet of ground floor retail (all the current restaraunts could stay) and jillians.? Is that feasible??

I would be against any high-rise at the Waterside site. The river is a public asset. Lining the river with high-rise towers is not good use of this asset. In my opinion, allowing the construction of Dominion Tower and the Sheraton was a mistake. The views of the river should not be restricted to the select few tenants in one building, while blocking the views for BofA, Marriott, 300 Main Street, etc., even if the views are only the drydocks at BAE Systems. I do not care if they totally gut and renovate Waterside, or even tear it down and build something else. Just keep it public and keep it low rise.

Jacksonville, Florida has a similar waterfront along the St. Johns River. They have preserved the waterfront property by limiting the height of waterfront buildings to two or three stories. They have similar density and number of high-rises as Norfolk, including a large financial services company with a high-rise tower located a block back from the river. Their version of Waterside, Jacksonville Landing, is located on a prime site right on the river, and is low enough so it does not block the view of the other offices in downtown.

Norfolk could do worse than to emulate Jacksonville's city planning for their waterfront.

jacksonville.jpg

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I would be against any high-rise at the Waterside site. The river is a public asset. Lining the river with high-rise towers is not good use of this asset. In my opinion, allowing the construction of Dominion Tower and the Sheraton was a mistake.

I think whoever decided to build the Sheraton building was just thinking, waterfront property, build something, and they will make some money. That building has no relevancy in DT at all other than it being a hotel. No significance, it

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I agree with pe. This space needs to be public. A private building will do nothing to bring people downtown, attract tourists from other places, bring in conventions, or anything else. A space with restaurants, bars, theaters, farmer's market, etc. will attract people. This space MUST complement Town Point Park and its festivals.

The comparisons to Baltimore are a bit unfair. Remember, they have MLB and the NFL very close by. As for all stores at Inner Harbor, we have most of those places too. Some are at McArthur, some at Town Center, and some at other places. The point isn't the lack of those places. It's providing an environment that people want to visit.

One thing I disagree with in pe's post is that the change made several years ago WAS successful for a while. Not that long ago, you could see lines to get into nearly every place (Bar Norfolk, Have a Nice Day Cafe, even Jillians).

Thus, things could be good again if they modernized, cleaned up, created better sense of connection with rest of DT, created activities at TPP that complemented Waterside (e.g., showing NFL games on Sundays on a big screen at amphitheater), ran shuttles from building to Scope/Harbor Park/Foreman Field, etc. etc.

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I agree with pe. This space needs to be public. A private building will do nothing to bring people downtown, attract tourists from other places, bring in conventions, or anything else. A space with restaurants, bars, theaters, farmer's market, etc. will attract people. This space MUST complement Town Point Park and its festivals.

The comparisons to Baltimore are a bit unfair. Remember, they have MLB and the NFL very close by. As for all stores at Inner Harbor, we have most of those places too. Some are at McArthur, some at Town Center, and some at other places. The point isn't the lack of those places. It's providing an environment that people want to visit.

One thing I disagree with in pe's post is that the change made several years ago WAS successful for a while. Not that long ago, you could see lines to get into nearly every place (Bar Norfolk, Have a Nice Day Cafe, even Jillians).

Thus, things could be good again if they modernized, cleaned up, created better sense of connection with rest of DT, created activities at TPP that complemented Waterside (e.g., showing NFL games on Sundays on a big screen at amphitheater), ran shuttles from building to Scope/Harbor Park/Foreman Field, etc. etc.

Cool ideas, I think a cinema cafe would do well in that building, however, I believe the farmers market should be somewhere else, like seldon arcade. The general population (older) does not like the ideas of bars in waterside at all. I personally do not see a problem with it as there is not one venue that can operate 24 hours a day. I love the NFL showing idea, that's something inexpensive to try and pull off. I personally would like to see them clean it up and maybe air it out. A private venue will not work, but they should modernize it to suit today's ideals. Maybe some enclosed flat screens, music (that plays all the time and not just elevator music), a nice center piece (maybe an indoor fountain sense they refuse to do so in TPP), take out the elevator and schedule real events throughout the year. Mix shopping is nice, but as a support structure, they need to give that idea up. Bring back the dueling pianos as an act; hire someone to just come up with ideas to present on the stage. In my heart, I believe that is what killed waterside. It was all setup to run as a joint venture, private vendor and public area and the city never scheduled any events. Places can get stale essentially that is what happened to waterside, it got stale, bars could still function, and the bums can roam under the radar.

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actually that is a good question, how is the bar scene in downtown? When I was there, the bar scene was just Waterside.

The ones in downtown, are they packed on peek nights or anything? I have always wanted to see the Norfolk Theater building on Granby get renovated and become apart of this.

I know I am a bit off topic with this question, but I think it will play into something I have in mind that I wanted to hear more feedback on.

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actually that is a good question, how is the bar scene in downtown? When I was there, the bar scene was just Waterside.

The ones in downtown, are they packed on peek nights or anything? I have always wanted to see the Norfolk Theater building on Granby get renovated and become apart of this.

I know I am a bit off topic with this question, but I think it will play into something I have in mind that I wanted to hear more feedback on.

Granby St depending on the night is generally always busy, always Friday and Saturday, pretty much every bar on Granby: Fahrenheit, Scottie Quixx, Baxters, Granby Theater, Guadalajaras, Velvet, Posh, Indra, Time, Hell's Kitchen, O'Malleys, Kelly's Backstage Tavern, Havana's (i might be missing one or two) it's just a matter of what's popular that night, who has the longest line, the cheapest cover etc. Generally there's anywhere between 800 - 2000 people on Granby on a weekend night, not Georgetown or Adams Morgan or DC crowd by any means, but more than respectable to double the business that the oceanfront or Town Center do currently, during the week it depends what promos they're running.....What's the Norfolk Theater, i'm not sure what you're talking bout with that one

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actually that is a good question, how is the bar scene in downtown? When I was there, the bar scene was just Waterside.
So far from what I've seen living downtown, it's pretty poor compared to other cities.

I took Tel's advice and tried some places on Colley, and was VERY pleasantly surprised with the scene down there.

But, if you're a fan of hip hop, waiting in hour long lines for no reason, paying $10 covers so that you can then pay insane prices for skimpy drinks, and also potentially getting shot when you leave, then waterside is your place!

Also got the chance to go up to the Oyster Point area last weekend, was very happy with the Red Star Tavern up there, much better then the one in VB's Town Center in my opinion-

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So far from what I've seen living downtown, it's pretty poor compared to other cities.

I took Tel's advice and tried some places on Colley, and was VERY pleasantly surprised with the scene down there.

But, if you're a fan of hip hop, waiting in hour long lines for no reason, paying $10 covers so that you can then pay insane prices for skimpy drinks, and also potentially getting shot when you leave, then waterside is your place!

Also got the chance to go up to the Oyster Point area last weekend, was very happy with the Red Star Tavern up there, much better then the one in VB's Town Center in my opinion-

Waterside has Hip Hop now, cool...

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I think he might be talking about Granby Theater

Yeah, it looks like I mean the Granby Theater, it is great to know that is being used again. I hope they did a good job with the renovation. I got to see photos a friend took when they got to tour the building after it had been closed down....it was sad to see.

I am just going off what you guys are saying and what I know of from years ago, but that was one thing that always annoyed me was the overpriced cover charges. $10 bucks it too high for a place like Norfolk, unless they have someone special that is playing there. Hell, here in Portland, if a bar actually does have a cover, which most do not, it is usually under $5, and only at a few of the dance clubs do you find it higher than $5.

A bar's profit comes from just the alcohol, the object should be to have the place looking busy inside...the whole need to have a line to get in is usually a dumb illusion rule that only hurts a bar in the long run if they are not getting enough people in the bar...who wants to wait in a line for a half hour, only to find the bar half full. (I am not saying anything about Norfolk, just making a statement.)

But it is good to see so many new bars opening up along Granby. It would be nice to see some infill happening on those parking lots along that street too...but that is a different topic.

Back to the Waterside, I was going to try and do a computer rendering of the idea I mentioned and had a very simple image of a while back...I am curious about this idea of rethinking Waterside Dr and the connection Waterside Marketplace has to the city and what the purpose for Waterside should be.

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NORFOLK

Waterside needs to become more family friendly. It needs to become festive again. It needs a quality, waterfront seafood restaurant.

But most of all, the walls built years ago need to come down, opening views of the harbor to those inside the city-owned entertainment complex.

Those were some of the suggestions from several dozen business people who met Thursday morning at a downtown forum hosted by Mayor Paul Fraim.

Fraim called the meeting as part of a year-long process to decide the long-term future of Waterside. In the short term, city officials plan to revamp the first floor by clearing out the food court and bringing in new tenants.

The city also plans to schedule more family events this spring and summer in an attempt to change the troubled venue

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NORFOLK

Waterside needs to become more family friendly. It needs to become festive again. It needs a quality, waterfront seafood restaurant.

But most of all, the walls built years ago need to come down, opening views of the harbor to those inside the city-owned entertainment complex.

Those were some of the suggestions from several dozen business people who met Thursday morning at a downtown forum hosted by Mayor Paul Fraim.

Fraim called the meeting as part of a year-long process to decide the long-term future of Waterside. In the short term, city officials plan to revamp the first floor by clearing out the food court and bringing in new tenants.

The city also plans to schedule more family events this spring and summer in an attempt to change the troubled venue

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A complete renovation of the food court, roof, and walls would also help. Last time i was in there the elevators weren't working, there was about three open resturaunts in the food court, and the walls were dirty and opaque. One thing I did notice was Joe's Crab Shack was PACKED with families. Jillian's is fine too.

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I hope those new tenants include fresh seafood and produce vendors. I think the city should keep Joe's Crab Shack, Outback and even Bar Norfolk and Hooters. I can sort of see this mix working at Waterside. This would remake Waterside into a round the clock destination like the Inner Harbor in Baltimore.

Did you not mention jillians on purpose?

Pound for Pound, Jillians is the best venue there by far.

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I hope those new tenants include fresh seafood and produce vendors. I think the city should keep Joe's Crab Shack, Outback and even Bar Norfolk and Hooters. I can sort of see this mix working at Waterside. This would remake Waterside into a round the clock destination like the Inner Harbor in Baltimore.

I believe the city is too lax about this renovation if you ask me. You build a new 11 million dollar park set to take off this year and you do not consider renovating the attached venue that is designed for the public? Some times, I think these people have their heads in the sand. Instead of providing a "BOOM" with a new renovated venue and park, we will get half of a "ding". It would have made more sense to renovate the entire area to be open AT ONCE and could have potentially changed the stigma of waterside at the same time. Now people will be force to visit the two.5 season park and still complain about waterside and continue to talk down on it.

I was looking at some of the posters comments on the article; some of these people have no concept. What do you do with a slap of land with no benches, next to a river, and no entertainment in late fall, winter and early spring? If you understand what I am saying, demolishing waterside as a whole is a BAD idea. It looks nice in the summer, but I think people get the wrong idea when they only view it in the summer or "great days".

I stick with my original thoughts, however, I suggest they add a chic fli (or however you spell it) and watch it take off. Honestly, if they wanted to be cheap, add one of those and no other renovations will be needed, LOL (I'm laughing, but I am serious). That fast food joint will single handy change waterside. Waterside can be a few things but the truths need to come out in regards to what they want for it. If they do not want bars, then they need to say that. If they only want a big ass food court, then they need to just come out and say it. Honestly, all of these side meetings are hindering the process and it seems as though some individuals have private ideas and they are bumping heads with the greater good.

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A bunch of the food court vendors are already gone. I know a number of people that go there for the Mongolian BBQ during lunch.

What about some sort of live music venue, for older crowds? Being able to eat and watch an act on a decent stage with decent lighting and decent amplification?

Or turn it into a Midevil Times type place :-) With a Pirate Theme.

I'm all about arcades, and not about Jillians. I mean, seriously. I repair arcade machines for fun (Have Donkey Kong, Galaga, Ms Pac Man, Mortal Kombat 4 (going away), Star Trek TNG Pin and Twilight Zone Pin). I've had a number of others, and helped a new friend fix up his collection ( IMG_9264 and http://www.flickr.com/photos/ethanotoole/3...in/photostream/ ) but I don't really like Jillians as an arcade. I like the IDEA of the card system, but it seems to obscure my payments. It's cool for pool though. I prefer Flipper McCoys at the oceanfront for games.

I don't know what the solution is for waterside. I do dig the market idea somewhat! I think that would be cool. Especially if there were food places that would make you a good meal out of the good ingredients at the market for lunch. I know a number of my coworkers just go to Farm Fresh every day.

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Honestly, I am not optimistic about Waterside. I haven't been there in a couple of years and have NO desire to go down there, well with the exception of Outback and Joe's crab shack. Other than those two, I don't want to visit the place. It is starting to get a bad crowd at night, just like MacArthur Center. The place is just very uninviting and scruffy. I think Norfolk should privatize Waterside and hopefully they can attract some choice retailers and restaurants like Va Beach Town Center has, but most will not build another location so close to their location at Va Beach Town Center. Now that is a town center that is thriving, especially the restaurants.

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Honestly, I am not optimistic about Waterside. I haven't been there in a couple of years and have NO desire to go down there, well with the exception of Outback and Joe's crab shack. Other than those two, I don't want to visit the place. It is starting to get a bad crowd at night, just like MacArthur Center. The place is just very uninviting and scruffy. I think Norfolk should privatize Waterside and hopefully they can attract some choice retailers and restaurants like Va Beach Town Center has, but most will not build another location so close to their location at Va Beach Town Center. Now that is a town center that is thriving, especially the restaurants.

Virginia Beach went out of their way to find chain restaurants for town center that Norfolk and other surrounding cities did not have. Let's be honest, Virginia Beach town center is pretty banging most nights I drive by (or go to places there). There are generally wait times, and lots of people.

A friend from San Jose was in town visiting another friend and his wife, and they (along with another local) decided to go to the gun show at the Scope. After they were done they came by my place and we walked through freemason down to Granby for lunch. To be honest, most of the food places were closed. Granby Pizza was open, so we sat outside. There were a few people, but it was pretty dead. Come back at 9pm and it's another story. Is town center like this at 2:30pm on a Saturday?

I think waterside could be useful. I'm just not sure what would work for it. I know we go to lunch there every once in a while (went more when I waked @ Wasabi) and it wasn't bad. The italian place that closed was good. Love the Mongolian BBQ place.

Back when we had more younger coworkers here we would go to Jillians for pool and what not from time to time. It was fine.

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+1 on trying to obtain some private ownership. I don't see innovative and profitable things happening to that property as long as the City owns and manages Waterside. It will probably just limp along, at best. That doesn't mean that there couldn't be a public/private partnership. But I'd rather see them tear it down and extend Town Point Park and the "Riverwalk" than continue with what thery have there now.

Here's an idea for compromise. The main problem with City ownership is the pressing need for full public inclusiveness. Something for everybody just doesn't always work. Who is Waterside for? Old people, sailors, young people, well-to-do, poor, children? I guess you could turn it into a full-fledged community center, with swimming pools, tennis courts, meeting halls and so on. The growing,downtown residential population needs that, but they already have the Y. It could become a kind of city-wide community center and also include some nice restaurants.

Edited by Padman
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