Iroquois School Reuse by GRCS (former Ottawa Hills High School)

[mendelman]

I'm curious, are the new plans published somewhere?

GR PC agenda and petitioner's plans

The pictures of the existing building do make the demolition a shame. The detailing on the cornice line of the existing building and the massing of the overall building is really quality. If you just restored the window openings to their original height, the building could be really stunning again.

But I can understand, that the Christian school probably doesn't need all the space in the existing building. Still a shame though.

The proposed building elevations do not inspire much confidence. I've seen too many of these modern educational building built and look really shoddy, with facades dominated by extensive dryvit and really bad or nonexistant detailing.

If I had been on the GR Planning Commission, I would have probably voted no on an approval motion, unless the petitioner had provided detailed, extensive and compelling reasons for not being able to use the existing building.

[GRDadof3]

I don't know. It looks like a typical school to me.

[Mark Miller]

I don't know. It looks like a typical school to me.

Hmmm. Typical school where? Jenison? Forest Hills? Hamilton? Anywhere? Nowhere?

This is our problem, we have accepted that our civic buildings have all the character of a minimum security prison or a factory.

We have lost our ability to recognize building type because we have no differentiation of type. And then we accept mediocrity because it looks like everything else.

This is another lost opportunity because we are sleepwalking into the future.

[concretepoem]

Hmmm. Typical school where? Jenison? Forest Hills? Hamilton? Anywhere? Nowhere?

This is our problem, we have accepted that our civic buildings have all the character of a minimum security prison or a factory.

We have lost our ability to recognize building type because we have no differentiation of type. And then we accept mediocrity because it looks like everything else.

This is another lost opportunity because we are sleepwalking into the future.

Another bonehead design feature: the parking spaces are all right out front. Because cars are so attractive to look at all day.

[ModSquad]

Hmmm. Typical school where? Jenison? Forest Hills? Hamilton? Anywhere? Nowhere?

This is our problem, we have accepted that our civic buildings have all the character of a minimum security prison or a factory.

We have lost our ability to recognize building type because we have no differentiation of type. And then we accept mediocrity because it looks like everything else.

This is another lost opportunity because we are sleepwalking into the future.

Actually, this cannot be called a "civic building" as it will not be owned by the City or GRPS. Grand Rapids Christian Schools is a private entity.

[walker]

Another bonehead design feature: the parking spaces are all right out front. Because cars are so attractive to look at all day.

As a good theoretical new urbanist, I understand your objection in general to the placement of the parking spaces but as a practical matter where would be a better place to put them? (Assuming that they need parking spaces at all.) The bulk of the parking is on the side off Alexander where it's always been as per the description in the request. The drive at what appears to be the front door I imagine is more to facilitate bus loading and unloading, and busing won't be going away since this school will be drawing from a large area. If you moved the school up toward the sidewalk and moved the parking and bus area behind you'd create a situation where people would have to walk through a parking lot to get to the playground and track. I think that would be worse than the parking on the side. What possiblities am I missing?

Without regard to the school design, I think it is great, maybe even courages, that the Grand Rapids Christian Schools have committed to building a new school in this neighborhood. I'm not Christian Reform so I wouldn't know for sure, but I wouldn't think building urban schools for your own kids is part of the mindset of most of their constituents.

[Raildudes dad]

Without regard to the school design, I think it is great, maybe even courages, that the Grand Rapids Christian Schools have committed to building a new school in this neighborhood. I'm not Christian Reform so I wouldn't know for sure, but I wouldn't think building urban schools for your own kids is part of the mindset of most of their constituents.

I'm CRC and I'm not sure what they are trying to do. It doesn't make sense to me to pay over a million for the property, demo it and then spend 12 million for a new building only to close their 4 existing buildings.

I haven't paid a lot of attention since my kids are all out of college but I would think it would be much less expensive to consolidate into 1 or 2 existing buildings.

[GRDadof3]

As a good theoretical new urbanist, I understand your objection in general to the placement of the parking spaces but as a practical matter where would be a better place to put them? (Assuming that they need parking spaces at all.) The bulk of the parking is on the side off Alexander where it's always been as per the description in the request. The drive at what appears to be the front door I imagine is more to facilitate bus loading and unloading, and busing won't be going away since this school will be drawing from a large area. If you moved the school up toward the sidewalk and moved the parking and bus area behind you'd create a situation where people would have to walk through a parking lot to get to the playground and track. I think that would be worse than the parking on the side. What possiblities am I missing?

I agree. On a site like this, is there really a "front" and "back"? It appears as though the school is surrounded on 3 sides by greenspace. Not bad IMO. Also, would the school look better if it had fakey cornice work and rooflines (think Cascade Meijer) to make it look "historic?"

[Mark Miller]

The "civic" typology is not in reference to who owns it. A school is a civic building, whether it is owned by the city, GRPS, the Christian Schools or Fred Meijer. A school is a civic building (and sometimes an object building) for typological reasons. We desire it to look like a school and not something else because we need to have a series of architectural typologies that create hierarchy of spaces and buildings. When we don't get that, we get the suburbs - monocultures which are devoid of any hierarchy where all buildings strive to be object buildings and none of them achieve it.

It is clear that this has been lost....even on that civic minded organization, the GRPS.

I think the siting is as good as its going to get and as a civic type, it is fine. You want it to be set back with greenspace around it. It is unfortunate that the parking is where it is, but all things considered this is probably the best place for it. You definately do not want the school -or any civic structure - at the street, in a zero setback condition.

Also, trying to make it look historic with fakey cornices and varied rooflines is not what I am talking about. Those are style considerations, not typological considerations. All I am saying is re-establish the type. It looks like a prison or a plastic injection plant, which has nothing to do with style and everything to do with a dignified (or not) public realm. And also probably the reason why children are thought of as widgets (especially on count days) or treated (and act like) minimum security prisoners - as they are impacted by their surroundings.

[joshleo]

I remember seeing some school redevelopment where a completely new building included some of the more artisitic architectural elements of the old structure inside the new building... where was that? any photos? why cant something like that be done here? I like that it adds a little nod to the history of the place and the school and people who were at that location before.

I live only 2 blocks from here. My wife and I specifically looked for houses in the neighborhood because of the age and style of the area. All those 1920's brick facades are simply beautiful. And the school was a great anchor for the center of the neighborhood. Sure I am SO happy that another school is going to replace the property instead of apartments, but the historical feel to such a prominent location will be lost.

I worry that we will be getting something like this:

to replace this:

I wish there was some way for them to keep the amazing details of the entry way, or the little details of the spiral pillars on the corners of the buildings.

Here is an overlay of the new design on the old arial photo: (view full size)

[GRDadof3]

I worry that we will be getting something like this:

Based on the elevations I posted, I think it's a little more appealing than that. I'm also not a fan of those low slung newer elementary schools with tiny windows (and hipped metal roofs). Those look like juvenile detention centers to me.

It would have been nice if they could've pulled a Burton Elementary makeover on Iroquois:

http://ascribehq.com/owen-ames-kimball/por...o/education/612

[joshleo]

It would have been nice if they could've pulled a Burton Elementary makeover on Iroquois:

http://ascribehq.com/owen-ames-kimball/por...o/education/612

YES! I love the coming together of the old and new in that school design!

[gvsusean]

Based on the elevations I posted, I think it's a little more appealing than that. I'm also not a fan of those low slung newer elementary schools with tiny windows (and hipped metal roofs). Those look like juvenile detention centers to me.

It would have been nice if they could've pulled a Burton Elementary makeover on Iroquois:

http://ascribehq.com/owen-ames-kimball/por...o/education/612

that takes foresight and creativity.... its a lot easier to tear down and build crap

[fotoman311]

that takes foresight and creativity.... its a lot easier to tear down and build crap

The crazy thing is that GRPS managed to pull off some great projects like this, and still come in under budget with enough money to give Houseman Field a significant makeover.

[concretepoem]

...I live only 2 blocks from here. My wife and I specifically looked for houses in the neighborhood because of the age and style of the area. All those 1920's brick facades are simply beautiful. And the school was a great anchor for the center of the neighborhood. Sure I am SO happy that another school is going to replace the property instead of apartments, but the historical feel to such a prominent location will be lost...

Exactly. There's nothing about the new design that feels like it acknowledges the neighborhood it's in. It could be anywhere. Ottawa Hills is a special place, and there's nothing special about this design...no sense of history, no attempt to capture the architectural character of the adjacent residences, where the predominant material is a darker stone or a reddish brick...not a light sand color.

The Burton School pix from the O-A-K site looks like a brilliant design retrofit.

[Yankee Fan]

Hey GR Dad: Since we know what is going to happen to this building and who is going to do it, could you possibly change the title/subtitle for this topic? Just seems a little outdated at this point.

Thanks!

[ModSquad]

The "civic" typology is not in reference to who owns it. A school is a civic building, whether it is owned by the city, GRPS, the Christian Schools or Fred Meijer. A school is a civic building (and sometimes an object building) for typological reasons. We desire it to look like a school and not something else because we need to have a series of architectural typologies that create hierarchy of spaces and buildings. When we don't get that, we get the suburbs - monocultures which are devoid of any hierarchy where all buildings strive to be object buildings and none of them achieve it.

It looks like a prison or a plastic injection plant, which has nothing to do with style and everything to do with a dignified (or not) public realm. And also probably the reason why children are thought of as widgets (especially on count days) or treated (and act like) minimum security prisoners - as they are impacted by their surroundings.

I do not mean to split hairs but from Webster:

CIVIC

[concretepoem]

...My point in mentioning this is to point out that this new school building is being built by a private entity that will have limited to no access for community members and neighbors (unless their kids happen to go there)...

You've touched on what for me is the interesting opportunity here...beyond the debate over the design of the building, what kind of impact could this new private educational school have on that part of the Southeast side? How might it help form a new sense of community and revitalize the neighborhoods adjacent to it? Will the new location ultimately draw families to buy homes in this part of the city? What about the teachers and administrators? Should part of 'the plan' be to somehow build-in incentives (housing loans from private foundations) to encourage them to live nearby? So that instead of more car trips in and out the area, instead a school detached (partly by a sea of parked cars) from its surroundings and its neighbors, this actually becomes little academic village, with lots of people who attend or work at the school actually walking to the school, or taking public transit (the Rapid's route 5 stops one block west on Giddings). That's essentially what Calvin, right around the corner, was like back in the day.

[Mark Miller]

I do not mean to split hairs but from Webster:

CIVIC

[Yankee Fan]

I would like to point out that the Christian schools receive no funds from the city, state, or government; the amount that people pay in tuition and donations is what keeps the school alive.

No or limited access is fine by me. It you want access, send your children there.

But there is no reason that they need to share their facilities as they are not a public institution. Should they? Well, I can see no reason why they wouldn't, it is their choice.

Their teachers work there for peanuts compared to the public schools. Teachers are more important to me than buildings so maybe they could find a way to pay them more to retain the talent, but again, they have no one but their own community to turn to.

And just one other observation: Since religion is not supposed to be propped up through the use of government property, money (see my point above), and facilities, is it right to then say that they must open their doors to the public?! In fact, they do open them, so it is a mute point.

And in terms of architecture, I believe that our schools should be palace-like to establish a presence that is good. However, the Christian schools are footing their own bill. There is no GRPS board meeting to squeeze some more money in to the budget; the Christian schools get to raise money the old fashioned way: Door to Door and friend to friend.

I would rather see them create a wonderful teaching and learning environment inside than complain about the outside.

[ModSquad]

I would like to point out that the Christian schools receive no funds from the city, state, or government; the amount that people pay in tuition and donations is what keeps the school alive.

No or limited access is fine by me. It you want access, send your children there.

But there is no reason that they need to share their facilities as they are not a public institution. Should they? Well, I can see no reason why they wouldn't, it is their choice.

Their teachers work there for peanuts compared to the public schools. Teachers are more important to me than buildings so maybe they could find a way to pay them more to retain the talent, but again, they have no one but their own community to turn to.

And just one other observation: Since religion is not supposed to be propped up through the use of government property, money (see my point above), and facilities, is it right to then say that they must open their doors to the public?! In fact, they do open them, so it is a mute point.

And in terms of architecture, I believe that our schools should be palace-like to establish a presence that is good. However, the Christian schools are footing their own bill. There is no GRPS board meeting to squeeze some more money in to the budget; the Christian schools get to raise money the old fashioned way: Door to Door and friend to friend.

I would rather see them create a wonderful teaching and learning environment inside than complain about the outside.

Thanks a lot for your comment Yankee Fan. You actually made my point more plainly that I was. GRCSA is spending their own money. It's their building. With public schools they are using public money...they are and should be under a lot more scrutiny regarding design etc...

[PR-15]

that takes foresight and creativity.... its a lot easier to tear down and build crap

I'll preface this note with the fact that my home is directly across the street from this school and I'll have to look at the new structure every single day.

I shot all the photos of Burton Elementary on OAK's web site. It's a wonderful school and a prime example of what's possible when new design honors old design. The Ottawa Hills Neighborhood Association sited Burton School as an example of what we wanted done to Iroquois School.

The architect for the Christian Schools mentioned that Burton was done at a cost of something like $45 million (or some high number...can't recall exactly) and their budget is less than $8 million (I think). The point is they have communicated over and over again that they don't have the budget to preserve any a portion of the structure as it stands...oh great...THANKS!

Part of me feels Christian Schools never should have bid on and purchased the old school if they never had any intentions of rehabbing significant portions of it in the first place...thanks for tearing down a wonderful piece of 1920's architecture...every last living brick of it.

[gvsusean]

I'll preface this note with the fact that my home is directly across the street from this school and I'll have to look at the new structure every single day.

I shot all the photos of Burton Elementary on OAK's web site. It's a wonderful school and a prime example of what's possible when new design honors old design. The Ottawa Hills Neighborhood Association sited Burton School as an example of what we wanted done to Iroquois School.

The architect for the Christian Schools mentioned that Burton was done at a cost of something like $45 million (or some high number...can't recall exactly) and their budget is less than $8 million (I think). The point is they have communicated over and over again that they don't have the budget to preserve any a portion of the structure as it stands...oh great...THANKS!

Part of me feels Christian Schools never should have bid on and purchased the old school if they never had any intentions of rehabbing significant portions of it in the first place...thanks for tearing down a wonderful piece of 1920's architecture...every last living brick of it.

is it possible for us to contact them and have a drive to preserve some of the architecture of the building.. certainly there are a few wealthy graduates from the school out there that would hate to see this building fall??? Anyone have any contacts with this christian school? Lets put our influence to use people! I am but a lowly new teacher but I will help anyway I can. WHOSE WITH ME?

[ModSquad]

The architect for the Christian Schools mentioned that Burton was done at a cost of something like $45 million (or some high number...can't recall exactly) and their budget is less than $8 million (I think). The point is they have communicated over and over again that they don't have the budget to preserve any a portion of the structure as it stands...oh great...THANKS!

Burton cost a little over $23 Million.

[PR-15]

Burton cost a little over $23 Million.

Thanks, Dave...I was only $22 million off...cut a guy some slack!