Iroquois School Reuse by GRCS (former Ottawa Hills High School)

[Veloise]

Commissioner LaGrand made an interesting point last night. This was a school, it will be torn down and a new one built. Nearby is another school that will be abandoned to move into the new school. This is really not a sustainable practice.

[nurfle!]

Commissioner LaGrand made an interesting point last night. This was a school, it will be torn down and a new one built. Nearby is another school that will be abandoned to move into the new school. This is really not a sustainable practice.

I've been wondering about this, too. The only thing I can think of is GRCS hedging their bets in case Oakdale genuinely secedes, or maybe they already have a buyer lined up? Otherwise it seems like a boneheaded move, doesn't it?

[GRDadof3]

The more I read about the details on this, the more I scratch my head and wonder what the hell GRCS is doing. And why is the city lending all kinds of support for a move that is about as un-green as can be?

[Veloise]

The more I read about the details on this, the more I scratch my head and wonder what the hell GRCS is doing. And why is the city lending all kinds of support for a move that is about as un-green as can be?

Same meeting: George brought up the point that this will help bring families into the city, which is desireable.

[Mark Miller]

The more I read about the details on this, the more I scratch my head and wonder what the hell GRCS is doing. And why is the city lending all kinds of support for a move that is about as un-green as can be?

You are onto something here. This was a done deal long before all this stuff became public. It was behind the scenes dealings by people who do not understand.

And now the state department of environmental quality is GIVING them the money to tear down the building and all this facilitated by the city in a 5 to 1 vote.

The city leadership likes to talk the talk when it comes to sustainability but they do not always walk the walk. This case is a prime example.

Sustainability is not just about building LEED buildings or wind turbines, it is about rehabilitating existing buildings. The most sustainable brick is the one already in place.

But I guess we give them a pass, as the mayor says this will bring families into the city. What that statement may fail to realize is that the families are still living in the burbs, albeit driving their kids into the city for school.

And give them a pass because GRCS has to do this all on their own, with no money from the state.

And give them a pass because they are moving here and not somewhere in the hinterlands.

[ModSquad]

Aside from the debate about the look of the newly designed school, and whether or not GRCS cares for the city or the neighborhood, here is some simple math.

GRPS did a fairly significant study of this building as a part of our last bind proposal. A team of architects, builders, and engineers toured every single GRPS building as a part of this assessment. They looked at obvious things like roofs, windows, boilers, AC (or lack thereof), and the soundness of the structure. They also looked at no so obvious things like making a building sustainable, LEED issues, and most important ADA issues. The price tag to bring Iroquois up to standard...just like Burton...was between $25 and $28 million.

It was decided for numerous reasons that it did not make sense for GRPS to invest this amount in this school because of our attendance patterns, enrollment, and financial feasibility. All these things were taken into consideration. The property was put on the market for about $2million (I think). GRCS for reasons that made sense to them, decided to purchase it for considerably under that and look at a major consolidation.

GRCS was looking at the same building that GRPS was looking at. However, they had the benefit of the study done by GRPS. So they had to decide pay just under $2 million for the building then pay another $25 million for the renovations, or pay $2 million for the building and a very nice piece of land (which is where the real value of this property is anyway!), tear it down and build one they can afford.

To add to the equation, one of the major issues with the building is the environmental issues it posed. The building is full of lead paint, asbestos, and many other environmental hazards. Now before anyone goes off about this and why kids were in the building, all these things are only hazards when demolition or major construction occurs and not in their current state.

The state offers help to entities looking to clean up environmental hazards, of course this is Brownfield money. This money can also be used to help deal with functionally obsolete buildings. It would be VERY easy to make a case for this building being functionally obsolete. If I were in GRCS's shoes, I would not hesitate to submit a Brownfield request.

One more financial note GRPS discovered with the few buildings that we demolished that there is significant value in the existing materials. A building this size has significant value for salvage.

As far as the city goes, what is better, to leave the building vacant and further deteriorate, or have new life brought to the site and the neighborhood. Talk to the neighbors around Oakdale School. After several years of having it sit vacant we would be happy to have it demolished and a new school built there!

[organsnyder]

As far as the city goes, what is better, to leave the building vacant and further deteriorate, or have new life brought to the site and the neighborhood. Talk to the neighbors around Oakdale School. After several years of having it sit vacant we would be happy to have it demolished and a new school built there!

What about the three vacant buildings this move is creating (Creston, Millbrook, and Oakdale)? Talk to the neighbors of those schools in a few years; Alexandar, kiddy-corner to Oakdale Christian, is also in danger of being closed. I grew up in that neighborhood (and still have my office there), and am fearful for what that will do to its stability, which is already tenuous at best.

How does it make sense, sustainability- and neighboorhood planning-wise, to restore one brownfield while creating three others?

As to bringing new residents into the city - why would the new school do that any better than the three current ones?

[ModSquad]

What about the three vacant buildings this move is creating (Creston, Millbrook, and Oakdale)? Talk to the neighbors of those schools in a few years; Alexandar, kiddy-corner to Oakdale Christian, is also in danger of being closed. I grew up in that neighborhood (and still have my office there), and am fearful for what that will do to its stability, which is already tenuous at best.

How does it make sense, sustainability- and neighboorhood planning-wise, to restore one brownfield while creating three others?

As to bringing new residents into the city - why would the new school do that any better than the three current ones?

I agree with you organsnyder. At least Creston and Millbrook are more viable buildings than Oakdale Public and Oakdale Elementary. I share your fears about the Oakdale Neighborhood. I live there and go to church in this neighborhood so I very much have a vested interest. Overall Grand Rapids simply has too many school buildings across the board...public and private. The demographics are just not there to support all these buildings.

Quick side note: it would be interesting to see a comparison of the number of children attending schools in the "pole barn" charter schools that are dotted around the perimeter just outside Grand Rapids City limits and compare that number to the empty class rooms sitting empty in these schools.

What we need to do, however, is put together some sort of task force that can deal with this City wide. It is a serious issue! The list of institutional buildings sitting empty smack dab in the middle of our neighborhoods is getting to be chronic.

Don't even get me started on what is going to happen to the monstrosity that is the soon to be former FIA building on the corner of Madison and Franklin.

All that being said, I do think it is unwise to try to stop a reasonable re-use of one of the biggest buildings in the bunch...Iroquois.

[Mark Miller]

What about the three vacant buildings this move is creating (Creston, Millbrook, and Oakdale)? Talk to the neighbors of those schools in a few years; Alexandar, kiddy-corner to Oakdale Christian, is also in danger of being closed. I grew up in that neighborhood (and still have my office there), and am fearful for what that will do to its stability, which is already tenuous at best.

How does it make sense, sustainability- and neighboorhood planning-wise, to restore one brownfield while creating three others?

As to bringing new residents into the city - why would the new school do that any better than the three current ones?

You are exactly right, but this is a question no one asks.

The short answer to your question is that we are led by short-sighted weak people.

[Mark Miller]

Quick side note: it would be interesting to see a comparison of the number of children attending schools in the "pole barn" charter schools that are dotted around the perimeter just outside Grand Rapids City limits and compare that number to the empty class rooms sitting empty in these schools.

Yes the pole barn buildings that represent the charter schools are pure crap. Aesthetically and materially. And it would appear that all the other schools are mimicking this crap in an all out race to zero. This most recent attempt here in Ottawa Hills proves that.

The difference is that the charter schools are indeed in the burbs, where the pole barn fits right in and is in fact right on par with both the aesthetics and the materials. On the other hand when this cancer is introduced into an urban fabric it only erodes the very thing that we need to be enhancing.

And this chasm that you will find between the numbers in the charters and the numbers in the public admittedly has little to do with the buildings or their location, but rather what is going on at the level of the kid. Go into one of these charters and watch the discipline and respect and then compare that to what you see in GRPS. I have witnessed both.

None of this changes the original premise of the civic building's responsibilities and obligations within the urban context. These responsibilities and obligations are not present in suburbia and there is no reason to expect them to ever be present. That die has been cast. What we have to do is stop that tide from sweeping into our city.

[PR-15]

I believe GRCS's entire budget for this school is around $12 million...but that includes the purchase price, demolition costs, design fees and many other expenses. It doesn't leave many resources for the new structure itself to be architecturally significant.

I believe the budget is embarrassingly small...much to frugal for something this ambitious.

Again...from where I stand we wouldn't be having this debate if GRCS would have preserved just a small portion of the building as a tip of the cap to the history of the land that they are now entrusted with.

[organsnyder]

I have found out that they are planning to keep a part of the building. There is a fireplace in the current building that they're going to incorporate into the new structure. As I understand it, this means that they basically had to design the building around this element (AFAIK, it's not being moved). While it isn't an exterior fixture, it is a "tip of the cap to history."

Apparently they also modified their original plans to make the building fit in more with the neighborhood, including more brick and some sloped roofs. I'm not sure if the drawings we've seen are the original or altered plans (I'm guessing the latter).

[Yankee Fan]

Well, it looks like they are getting their bailout. I bet they get their money before most of the government bailout money is dispersed.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ind...pids_amway.html

[Mark Miller]

Well, it looks like they are getting their bailout. I bet they get their money before most of the government bailout money is dispersed.

http://www.mlive.com/news/grand-rapids/ind...pids_amway.html

Between this money and the $700,000 that the Department of (alleged) Environmental Quality is giving them, will we see a better attempt at school design? Don't hold your breath.

[GR_Urbanist]

I have found out that they are planning to keep a part of the building. There is a fireplace in the current building that they're going to incorporate into the new structure. As I understand it, this means that they basically had to design the building around this element (AFAIK, it's not being moved). While it isn't an exterior fixture, it is a "tip of the cap to history."

Apparently they also modified their original plans to make the building fit in more with the neighborhood, including more brick and some sloped roofs. I'm not sure if the drawings we've seen are the original or altered plans (I'm guessing the latter).

Fireplace?

I wonder where that was.

[fotoman311]

Fireplace?

I wonder where that was.

Not to ruffle feathers on this again, but I found a bunch of 2008 photographs of the building at http://www.historygrandrapids.org/items.php?subject=439

Check out all the marble in the girl's showers and the girl's restroom. Maybe the Amway Grand could get in there and salvage some of that and use it to replace their cheap looking plastic faux marble stalls in some of their bathrooms.

[tommygrand20]

GRCS's website has a new pdf document that shows some more detailed renderings of what the school will look like. Looks better then the original ones submitted to the Planning Commision.

GRCS Elementary Renderings

[gvsusean]

yay junk suburb school

[jas49503]

yay junk suburb school

So what does a 'city' school look like. I think that it looks pretty good; certainly not old though. a school, even one in a city isn't trying to bring some sort of pedestrian friendly, street level retail. most schools, even ones in cities are set back from the street with lots of playgrounds and parking. the only difference is that they (already existing schools) look old. this applied to schools in the country and suburbs though too.

[Grandrapidsne]

Id say that rendering is alot better than this building sitting empty in the heart of a neighborhood rotting.

[GRDadof3]

So what does a 'city' school look like. I think that it looks pretty good; certainly not old though. a school, even one in a city isn't trying to bring some sort of pedestrian friendly, street level retail. most schools, even ones in cities are set back from the street with lots of playgrounds and parking. the only difference is that they (already existing schools) look old. this applied to schools in the country and suburbs though too.

I think the design looks pretty similar to how it looked before, except with a few design variations like sloped roofs, etc.. The impressive part about that pdf is that they are now going for LEED Certification, including eliminating the extra parking they were seeking, adding green roofs, and other features like rain gardens and more greenspace. That's a big switch.

It also looks like they are incorporating part of the architecture of Iroquois on the Fisk St side.

[Gorath]

Demolishing an existing serviceable school and building a new school is very anti-green. If this is what flies for LEED then LEED ratings are a joke.

[fotoman311]

Demolishing an existing serviceable school and building a new school is very anti-green. If this is what flies for LEED then LEED ratings are a joke.

I think it comes down to what is your definition of "serviceable". I do wish they could have put in a bit more money and done a project more like the Burton School that GRPS did, discussed earlier in this thread.

It does say that they will salvage and/or recycle 95% of the demolition materials. That looks nice on paper. I wonder if it's actually possible.

[Ted]

Demolishing an existing serviceable school and building a new school is very anti-green. If this is what flies for LEED then LEED ratings are a joke.

Yes.

[Mark Miller]

Hooray!!!!

Hooray!!!!

Call the press. They are going to LEED certify.

That makes it all better. Now their archaic practices can be labeled sustainable.... complete with the plaque. Oh, and they are going to reduce the heat islands too!! We are witnessing cutting edge mavericks, some real out of the box thinkers here.

And yes, Gorath, LEED ratings are a joke, especially when applied in a vacuum.

As far as what does an urban school look like? As compared to a suburban school? It doesn't have anything to do with street level retail or the age of the building.

You can re-read this post in regards to the typological discussions. The historic schools followed a pattern for civic buildings that had been established over time. These new schools follow a pattern of something else: The first iteration looked like a factory or a prison (as most suburban schools seem to) and this new design simply makes the school look more like a house, which is exactly the kind of BS they build out on the beltline - making it "blend in" to preserve rural character.

The other thing to keep in mind is the quality of the workmanship - the architectural detailing and construction craft. There is absolutely no way that this school will be built as well as the one it is replacing, no matter how many green gizmos and gadgets that they install in it. I am 100% convinced of that. The materials will be poorer. The detailing will we poorer. The actual execution will be worse.

In other words, the original Iroquois was designed and built to last a century (or more) and did (or could have).

This one will be designed and built like a strip mall or tract house...and will last as long.

If you do not believe me, go take a stroll by the POS that replaced Henry School on Logan. I just walked around it last week and really looked closely at the detail and the quality of construction. The brickwork alone on that building looks like it was done by Curious George and not a skilled mason. Go take a look. How old is it? Look at how bad it has held up, after what...4 years!! This is a suburban school, plopped into an urban context. It will be the same case in Ottawa Hills.