Rida Development Corp's Mixed-Use Complex [Under Construction]

[OrlFlaUsa]

For every bit of missed opportunity that this project is, it's 100 bits more exciting and valuable than the status quo. And that's a 30 year status quo.

To me this represents one less unwalkable block, one less available land grab, more residents, more awnings, more retail that is in a geographic location to succeed, more ammo for SunRail supporters etc. I've said before that I don't understand how this is being built as residential when tons of businesses would like to be able to have NO connectivity issue with SunRail (meaning even a 1/4 mile walk is a concern for them). But while I don't get it, I still love it.

Drove down Orange today and between 800 N Orange, Residence Inn and CSS, it's a great time to be on board.

I'm with the optimists on this one, that lot was embarrassing and there are other opportunities for skyscrapers later. Personally, I'm a big fan of South Eola getting as dense as possible with highrise condos, whereas the rest of downtown, it's just not as important to me. Example: So what Uptown only has midrise going in, it's people who will live a life in that part of town, where before it was either a lot, or something. South Eola to me could be where the skyline wraps around the lake and gets some much needed depth with the new density levels. 

[jrs2]

^^

Uptown:  the beauty of each of these projects is that every time one gets built and is successful, another two or so get proposed.  think about it.  during the boom, 801 N. got built.  If it didn't, what would be a catalyst for future growth?  Now, NORA will have retail (to compliment 801), and Steelhouse proved you could have residential right off of Colonial  on that God forsaken tract of land.  And now, Residence Inn is going across the street from Steelhouse.  Who would have thought this 12 years ago?  Throw in 800 N. for added density. 

 

^^

Central Station & Magic Complex:  great points about both projects and not one, but two, moving forward.  I think Central Station's hotel will get built first (b/c of OPD), though, which is good, since the Magic's hotel will have some City backing to it (which means that it will most assuredly get built).  If the Magic's hotel gets built first, I don't think the Central Station hotel gets built.  Just look at what happened to the Cambria Suites proposal.

 

^^

These Empty Lots:  I totally agree about the embarrassment factor:  Seriously.  Skyhouse did wonders for that lot next to the Courthouse; a total 180.

[RedStar25]

Lord, y'all are the most nay saying nancies ever... 

If you want something different there, then buy the land and build what you want. Truth be told tho, this has been a vacant lot for 30 years. I'm happy that Orlando is developing into a unique and vibrant city and not some Miami copycat. We have more residence downtown than many comparable metros and we have over 1,000 residential units under construction downtown.  A high rise would be nice but a city is not defined by its towers, it's defined by it's residence. 

[OrlFlaUsa]

Snapped this as I got off the train at LCS:

You know, we really should be more excited about this project. If nothing else, for the wall it will create on Orange and the life it will bring to this SunRail stop. Plus it will be nice for me to grab a beer and people watch while waiting on my train, right now I have to use CSS to do that.

[gibby]

I really like the project.  It will help fill a massive gap so that we'll have pedestrian activity basically from Lake Ivanhoe all the way to Lake Lucerne on Orange Ave.

[JFW657]

Lord, y'all are the most nay saying nancies ever... 

If you want something different there, then buy the land and build what you want. Truth be told tho, this has been a vacant lot for 30 years. I'm happy that Orlando is developing into a unique and vibrant city and not some Miami copycat. We have more residence downtown than many comparable metros and we have over 1,000 residential units under construction downtown.  A high rise would be nice but a city is not defined by its towers, it's defined by it's residence. 

 

Well that's all nice, positive thinking & all, but no matter how much of an improvement this project may be over a 30 year old barren dirt lot, the very fact that some are even pointing that out, is indicative of the fact that what's going up there is the equivalent of a second rate consolation prize.

 

I'm happy that the parcel is being developed too & believe that it will be a great addition to the downtown streetscape.

 

But let's face it... everyone was hoping for an impressive, iconic tower on that spot & there is nothing wrong with expressing one's disappointment over what we are winding up with.

 

It is what it is.

[CaptainJustice]

Well that's all nice, positive thinking & all, but no matter how much of an improvement this project may be over a 30 year old barren dirt lot, the very fact that some are even pointing that out, is indicative of the fact that what's going up there is the equivalent of a second rate consolation prize.

 

I'm happy that the parcel is being developed too & believe that it will be a great addition to the downtown streetscape.

 

But let's face it... everyone was hoping for an impressive, iconic tower on that spot & there is nothing wrong with expressing one's disappointment over what we are winding up with.

 

It is what it is.

Agreed. Not sure how one isn't allowed to not like a project. Wasn't aware we all had to agree everything being built downtown is impressive.

 As you said it is what it is. At the end of the day and everyday, this will continue to be a wasted opportunity. But at least things are moving downtown which is most important.

[HankStrong]

I think the comment is less about not being allowed to disagree, but more along the lines that if you look at almost every thread on this forum you see a formula.

 

 

"They are building an 8-story building on lot XXX"

 

Dude1 - "BOO!  I wanted townhomes!  This stinks!  We were promised townhomes!"

Dudette2 - "BOO!  I wanted 15+ stories and this stinks!"

Dude3 - "BOO!  I wanted it to be a park!  This stinks!"

Dude4 - "BOO!  I a 70-story skyscraper!  Why can't we have a skyscraper? This stinks!"

Dude5 - "BOO!  I wanted this on lot YYY!  This stinks!  We'll never get good things."

 

Dude6 -"Cool, I love this idea.  An 8-story building is perfect for this lot.  Good job!"

 

Dude1 - "WRONG!  It will never work!  The people in this town are hicks and hayseeds!  This 8-story building is doomed to fail!  Keep dreaming Dude6!"

Dudette2 - "Hahaha, what a dreamer.  Incompetent Public Figure Person will shut this down in a heartbeat!"

Dude3 - "In 1962 they tried to ram this down our throats, but we rebelled!  They tore down an important historical icon in this city, the fence post of irrelevance, to punish us!  No 8-story buildings for you!"

 

 

I don't always say much (I've been posting more recently) but I've been around here reading most threads for many years.  It's a fairly common approach.

[jack]

As long as we respect the diversity of opinions we will be okay. There is no right answer to development. 

[spenser1058]

I tend to be agnostic about height, it's more a matter of how compact and walkable the area is. Stucco-on-plywood in a downtown setting seems odd to me, but if they get some decent retail included, I'll genuflect in the direction of the developer.

[JFW657]

Re: HankStrong, I think you may be confusing this forum with some other one.

I've been posting here for nearly 10 years & have never seen the kind of whining & bickering that you describe, or at least not the amount of it you seem to be implying goes on here.

Certainly people have differing ideas about what type of development should occur on a given parcel, but that is the whole purpose of discussion forums.

It would suck if everyone saw everything the same way, never disagreed & happily accepted & cheered every design.

[alex]

I tend to be agnostic about height, it's more a matter of how compact and walkable the area is.

 

I agree with this a lot.  I once read that the pedestrian doesn't actually perceive anything past a third story (unless, of course, they're paying attention to building height). To me, this means that street interaction, sidewalk design, and general walkability should be bigger issues than height. 

 

That's not to say I don't love a good skyscraper.  But like I've said before, the world's most famous cities average between five and ten stories, so I'm happy with a lot of these new downtown proposals. 

[jrs2]

^^

It is true, though.  Everyone here for the most part does b!+ch a lot about stuff- me being of of you.

 

Look, this is the land of toothpicks and stucco, unfortunately.  Developers are allergic to concrete and brick, or at least their wallets are- or rather, the banks' wallets are.

 

But, look at NORA- the facade is drywall and stucco and the floors are concrete; you wouldn't even know.  Compare it to Crescent when they both open and you won't be able to tell the difference.

 

But if you look at old hundred-year-old brick residential buildings that were 2-5 stories up north, their interior structures were all wood.  Why do you think they could catch fire and burn to the ground?  See Chicago 1871.

 

So, it is what it is.  I think NORA is going condo first chance it gets.  These other buildings I think will stay rentals for a long time because of what the market calls for.

 

That being said, if 420 Church and/or The Sevens turn out to be wood framed, I'll be p!ssed.

 

^^

 

On the 30 year thing:  Regarding the RIDA block, I would rather see 5-6 story buildings building it out than a vacant lot that breaks the continuity of the streetscape.  Because at the end of the day, this is about building a community, right?  And community needs sidewalk frontage contiguously developed to extend the walkable or liveable or trendy or what have you area further down the street.

[JFW657]

On the 30 year thing:  Regarding the RIDA block, I would rather see 5-6 story buildings building it out than a vacant lot that breaks the continuity of the streetscape.  Because at the end of the day, this is about building a community, right?  And community needs sidewalk frontage contiguously developed to extend the walkable or liveable or trendy or what have you area further down the street.

 

 

Absolutely agree.

 

But that doesn't change the fact that we're getting what amounts to a consolation prize.

 

Yes, it'll do & it's certainly better than nothing.

 

But it isn't what we really wanted.

 

"Better than nothing" seems to be what we usually wind up getting. 

 

OK, so I'm whining a little.... 

[HankStrong]

Re: HankStrong, I think you may be confusing this forum with some other one.

I've been posting here for nearly 10 years & have never seen the kind of whining & bickering that you describe, or at least not the amount of it you seem to be implying goes on here.

Certainly people have differing ideas about what type of development should occur on a given parcel, but that is the whole purpose of discussion forums.

It would suck if everyone saw everything the same way, never disagreed & happily accepted & cheered every design.

 

There are some grumpy forums on the planet, that I agree with.

 

What I said isn't true in every thread.  That is a hyperbolic comment, but based in reality.  I've been reading for a long time and not really participating a lot.  A lot of that had to do with what I mentioned above.  I've really wanted to talk about the trains recently because I love the concept.  Oddly, I'm not really big into trains (generally speaking) but I love the concept of mass transportation.

 

I also tend to nerd out on high-yield algae-based biofuel production, but that's an entirely different topic.

 

I'm not saying the residents of this forum are evil or mean or anything truly negative.  I'm just saying that if you read thread after thread, there is a formula and it's a lot like what I posted.  It might be full of smiles and hearts and butterflies, but it's the same basic message.  "That'll never happen."

[jack]

I agree with this a lot.  I once read that the pedestrian doesn't actually perceive anything past a third story (unless, of course, they're paying attention to building height). To me, this means that street interaction, sidewalk design, and general walkability should be bigger issues than height. 

 

That's not to say I don't love a good skyscraper.  But like I've said before, the world's most famous cities average between five and ten stories, so I'm happy with a lot of these new downtown proposals. 

 

You are generally correct, pedestrians typically don't notice buildings above 40 feet. That is why I care less about what the top of a building looks vs the street level. And it ticks me off when the design committees focus less at the street level vs upper levels. Its like we are designing for blimp shots during sporting events.

 

 

We don't use brick because it does not make any sense.  I think the closest mill is in Albany Ga. And now with efforts for green building, it makes it that much harder.Architects and developers generally design to a price. "We can charge X, so it needs to cost Y". 

 

420 and the Sevens are too tall to be constructed of wood. Nora is all concrete with a stucco exterior. And the renters will not notice one bit. Same with Steel House. 

[jrs2]

Here's something to consider:  Miami's boom is still occurring believe it or not.  most all of the highrises being built are condos.  are people flocking to move to Miami?  No.  But "Miami" is sexy and there's a lot (if not all) of South American $$$ investing in these towers as investment properties. 

 

Compare to Orlando:  Downtown Orlando has several different land developers investing in downtown with residential.  It's mainly rental for right now.  But, rental isn't an investment property; you don't flip it.  Which means that so long as the occupancy rate are maintained, the demand is maintained, with actual residents living in those units.  Not to say that foreign investors aren't renting their units in Miami.  The point is that banks see the demand for renters in downtown Orlando is being maintained so they are lending to developers; they aren't doing it contingent on 51% or whatever in condo deposits from abroad.  It's a healthier and less risky residential market.  If the occupancy rate is maintained, then banks lend for new projects.  With a condo, all the bank cares about are two things: whether they have enough deposit money, and whether or not there is a condo bust because investors couldn't flip the unit and/or rent the unit and in turn default, which ultimately kills the market for new projects.

 

I know about the "settling" and "better than nothing" concepts.  But I don't view Crescent as that.  Maybe for that parcel, but not for the downtown market as a whole. 

[FLheat]

[spenser1058]

Paul Krugman had an interesting blog post on the NY Times website today in response to an article by Henry Petroski about the decline of good construction. The reason that's pertinent here is this quote:

 

"Oh, and not everything worth doing is doing well. Cheap construction makes sense if you suspect that changing land use will make expensively built structure obsolete fairly soon." (italics mine)

 

Maybe this bodes well for a relatively quick turnaround to something we'd all like much better on this site.

 

http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2014/06/27/these-ages-of-shoddy/?module=BlogPost-Title&version=Blog%20Main&contentCollection=Opinion&action=Click&pgtype=Blogs&region=Body

[JFW657]

I'm not saying the residents of this forum are evil or mean or anything truly negative.  I'm just saying that if you read thread after thread, there is a formula and it's a lot like what I posted.  It might be full of smiles and hearts and butterflies, but it's the same basic message.  "That'll never happen."

 

And we've usually been right.   

 

Welcome to reality in Orlando... 

 

[spenser1058]

I will certainly plead guilty to focusing on the lack of retail downtown - it's the last piece of the puzzle that has to be added to achieve a complete, walkable downtown. We have been able to show that, through this administration's own efforts as well as those in other downtowns across the Sunbelt, none of the excuses we are given hold much water, or when they do, we have suggested concrete ways to remedy them. However, despite what the residents and those who use downtown daily have all but begged for, the city has constantly moved on to the next big thing rather than finishing the most important requirement.

 

What's odd is that we're not talking the next Mall of Millenia here. Whether it be a Walmart or a series of locally-owned general purpose shops providing everyday items, just make it a priority the way a downtown grocery store once was, and we're done. It wouldn't take a whole lot of money to prime the pump, just the will. 

 

Once it happens, I promise I'll shut up and be happy to support as many 900' towers as anyone wants.

[HankStrong]

And we've usually been right.   

 

Welcome to reality in Orlando... 

 

See above

[OrlFlaUsa]

Bars, restaurants, and select retail might do well scattered downtown in the bases of projects like this one, but I believe the fix is in the cluster and we all know where that's worked downtown in the past.

Imagine once the Exchange starts feeling like it's former self assassin, food court, shops, entertainment, what that would do for retail across the CBD.

Everyday retail could be centered their for the locals, and then satellite things like a CVS, Ross, etc will pop up in the retail spots in these residential projects.

[spenser1058]

I was thinking about how Winter Park (which is known nationally as a successful urban village, rating notice by leaders in the movement like Andres Duany) also has quite limited variety retail. It has gotten even more limited lately with the demise of the 17-92 Kmart. What hasn't changed, though, is the continuing run of Miller's Hardware, which has been in business since 1945.

 

Miller's, of course, is hardly a hardware store, with everything from small appliances to gas grills. It's a godsend for Rollins students that don't have a car and has been for decades. A feature on how they've been successful and how a small retailer might duplicate that success in downtown Orlando might be perfect for Matt and The Bungalower.

[HankStrong]

How on Earth is there not a pharmacy downtown?  You have to go SoDo or to Fashion Sq.