My Rant about Charlotte

[Andyc545]

I had relatives down a few months ago from up North and as we drove through uptown they were very impressed with the city but when we got to the area around the Greyhound bus station on Trade street they remaked about how it suddenly became a "dead zone". I think thatthis area should be a primary focus of redevelopment to connect it to the rest of the downtown Renaissance.

[Spartan]

FWIW I think that the new park in 3rd Ward will be a huge destination for center city residents. Right now the cemetery and Frazier Park are the closes things we have. There is some retail being built in Catalyst. Perhaps the new park, if it turns out to be a draw, along with the new residential towers will generate some more demand for retail.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

One of the things I like about downtown Winston's attempts to revive its downtown is that that city is luring the creative class to its center city, with its Arts District, Theater District, and Piedmont Triad Research Park. Not to sound like a Richard Florida acolytye, but I think that a vibrant center city needs the creative class to thrive. I am all for massive scale developments and condo towers, but the most exciting center cities tend to have lots of lower scale assets such as row houses, sidewalk cafes, bookstores, nightclubs, and parks. People want a cultural and social experience that they can't get at the suburban mall when they come to a center city. They want to see the diversity, the hip, the pulse of a big city buzzing.

[voyager12]

^ I agree that not enough attention is being focused on the amenities you listed at the end of your post. That's why I spend almost all of my leisure time in Dilworth/Southend, PM/Elizabeth, and NoDa. Uptown is centered around "destination" attractions, the ring districts and old city suburbs seem to playing the role of walkable areas on a small scale. Seems counterintuitive to me but I am grateful for the litttle we do have.

[Mobuchu]

One of the things I like about downtown Winston's attempts to revive its downtown is that that city is luring the creative class to its center city, with its Arts District, Theater District, and Piedmont Triad Research Park. Not to sound like a Richard Florida acolytye, but I think that a vibrant center city needs the creative class to thrive. I am all for massive scale developments and condo towers, but the most exciting center cities tend to have lots of lower scale assets such as row houses, sidewalk cafes, bookstores, nightclubs, and parks. People want a cultural and social experience that they can't get at the suburban mall when they come to a center city. They want to see the diversity, the hip, the pulse of a big city buzzing.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Mobuchu, I am not in the know about the mechanizations behind the revival of Winston's Art and Theater Districts, so I will do some research and report back later. But in the meantime, here is some video from WXII on the Arts District.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

This article gives a generalized account of how the Arts District came to be:

http://triad.bizjournals.com/triad/stories...mp;surround=etf

In a nutshell, this portion of the article succinctly summarizes why Winston was successful with this district:

"Each summer since the late 1990s, the Summer on Trade music series has attracted people from all over Winston-Salem to the arts district. At first, they just listened to the free concerts. Then they started wandering into the shops. Then they started coming back during the week."

[1979Heel]

Winston-Salem has had an arts legacy for years, stretching back to the creation of NCSA in 1963 and maybe even earlier, considering the relocation of WFU in 1956 and Salem College in Old Salem. Charlotte's arts scene, such as it is, has had to be built from the ground up and with scant help from either local universities or the state goverment.

I'm a Charlotte native and plenty old enough to remember the center city in the early 1970s. It was pretty grim. The turnaround is nothing short of amazing. So when I read complaints about it, I am simultaneously thankful that 1) people care so much about it that they want it to be even better and 2) decisions were made over the last 30 years that have given us the excellent base to build upon today. Most of the mistakes in rebuilding the center city, such as leveling 2d Ward and building the I-277 loop above ground, were made in many other US cities as well and are not unique to Charlotte. For example, the Fillmore District in San Francisco was leveled as an "urban renewal" project and if the Loma Prieta earthquake in 1989 had not happened, there would likely still be the Embarcadero Freeway around downtown SF, and no restored Ferry Building and wonderful farmer's market.

[Justadude]

The biggest problem I have with the baseball stadium is that there are no specific plans to make it functional on non-gamedays. The small amount of retail is one thing, but the stadium itself could be a destination if properly designed. When the concept was first proposed, I had really hoped to see some kind of plaza, arcade or park incorporated into the stadium itself. What we have instead is a small park and a small stadium, which don't seem to connect with each other very much.

[HopHead]

The biggest problem I have with the baseball stadium is that there are no specific plans to make it functional on non-gamedays. The small amount of retail is one thing, but the stadium itself could be a destination if properly designed. When the concept was first proposed, I had really hoped to see some kind of plaza, arcade or park incorporated into the stadium itself. What we have instead is a small park and a small stadium, which don't seem to connect with each other very much.

[Andyc545]

Outside of having retail/restaurants wrapped around the stadium, what else could be put into a stadium that could be utilized on non-game days? The intent is to have a park next door which we all discussed in other threads. The problem with baseball/football stadiums is that they aren't utilized for anything else. Basketball arenas as we all know can accomodate many different things.

[kermit]

Just curious, what is Winstons strategy to making this happen. I'm sure everyone on here would love to have a more diverse demographic uptown, but how do you make that happen with land values so high?

[BullDurhamer]

I thought I'd jump in on this regarding the stadiums.

First of all, has there been a downtown baseball stadium built in recent years anywhere that hasn't spurred development or at least been a major part in it? I live in Durham and I can tell you that when the baseball stadium was built almost 15 years ago, there was nothing there and downtown Durham was a ghost town. You guys may or may not know this, but now that area around the ball park is a completely different area. It has gone from nothing to a boom spot with refurbished warehouses for office and retail which has spurred the development of a major performance arts theater and renovations of other warehouses into condos as well as the building of office buildings...all down town. Without a new ball park there, what happens? The same can be said in just about every city in America that has built a ball park in the last fifteen years. San Diego, Denver, Baltimore, and now Washington DC are three nationally that come to mind. Regionally, Greensboro is definitely an example. That's a downtown that has had very little going on until recently and the ball park is a huge factor in the rejuvination. Consider that about 70 nights a year during the summer, people come into the center of the city by the thousands. If you can come up with a better way to draw people into the center of the city to spend their money are shops, restaurants, and bars, I'm all ears. A downtown baseball stadium is almost always a WIN WIN for urban downtown development.

Secondly, regarding the football stadium. I agree that having football stadiums sitting in the middle of downtown with parking lots everywhere is a bad idea. This isn't what Charlotte has, however. The stadium is placed next to the freeway, a spot where it is out of the way. The suggestion was made to place the stadium out in the middle of nowhere. I can't disagree with this suggestion loudly enough. I've seen how that works in Washington. The Redskins stadium is out in the middle of nowhere in Maryland. How does it work? You get in you car and sit in traffic... and sit in traffic... and sit in traffic. Can you take the train? No, because there is no train going out to the middle of nowhere. So what you're doing is encouraging 80,000 people to get in their cars and fill up the highways. That in itself is reason enough to discourage this. On top of that, you're sitting in traffic forever. Then once you're there, you're stuck. No where to go. Come and go, that's it. The Redskins win and the gas stations win, but that's about it. Maybe there's a McDonald's the next exit up if you're 'lucky'. After the event is over, what do you do? Get in the car and drive away. What does Washington DC get out of this? Absolutely nothing. You can call BOA a deadzone, but I call it an opportunity to showcase your city to 65,000 fans 10 game days of the year or so. It is also an opportunity to give these folks a great experience in the city. Keep in mind that people will come into the city and stay in hotels during game weekends, bowl weekends, and concerts if they are ever held. If the stadium was out in Fort Mill, those folks wouldn't be spending their money in the middle of the city. With the stadium tucked away in the corner and out of the way, you have a very nice set up in Charlotte and a way to bring in what amounts to probably close to a million people in your city a year. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have the people coming in and staying at my hotels, eating at my restaurants, spending money at my shops, and opening all kinds of doors for future business than to have all of this go to exit 3 out in the middle of nowhere putting just that many more cars on the road and spurring more sprawling strip malls as a result of its presence. Think long term...as the city grows and the light rail gets bigger, you're giving people many different ways to get in. You've also already got the stadium on what was probably a relatively inexpensive piece of land at the time. In other cities, doing something like this would be astronomically expensive, thus they may not have some of the options that they may like. BOA is there and I think everybody is lucky it is there, tucked away in the corner. It isn't like it is holding anything back. It is hidden away as it is to be used when needed and to say out of the way when it isn't.

[monsoon]

^Maybe I am missing something, but isn't Durham's baseball stadium located in the corner of a freeway exit? Seems to me it's a bit of a stretch to imply this is the same situation as that in Charlotte. And in Charlotte's case this isn't an all or nothing proposition. Prior to this proposal there was an already funded plan to put a signature urban park in this location. A park will serve the needs of a much larger base of people and will do it every day of the week.

On you other point, cities should not be using tax money to build professional sports venues. There are plenty of studies that indicate they do nothing for the economics of a city as they divert money away from other activities that might have been placed there in the first place.

[BullDurhamer]

^Maybe I am missing something, but isn't Durham's baseball stadium located in the corner of a freeway exit? Seems to me it's a bit of a stretch to imply this is the same situation as that in Charlotte. And in Charlotte's case this isn't an all or nothing proposition. Prior to this proposal there was an already funded plan to put a signature urban park in this location. A park will serve the needs of a much larger base of people and will do it every day of the week.

On you other point, cities should not be using tax money to build professional sports venues. There are plenty of studies that indicate they do nothing for the economics of a city as they divert money away from other activities that might have been placed there in the first place.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Secondly, regarding the football stadium. I agree that having football stadiums sitting in the middle of downtown with parking lots everywhere is a bad idea. This isn't what Charlotte has, however. The stadium is placed next to the freeway, a spot where it is out of the way. The suggestion was made to place the stadium out in the middle of nowhere. I can't disagree with this suggestion loudly enough. I've seen how that works in Washington. The Redskins stadium is out in the middle of nowhere in Maryland. How does it work? You get in you car and sit in traffic... and sit in traffic... and sit in traffic. Can you take the train? No, because there is no train going out to the middle of nowhere. So what you're doing is encouraging 80,000 people to get in their cars and fill up the highways. That in itself is reason enough to discourage this. On top of that, you're sitting in traffic forever. Then once you're there, you're stuck. No where to go. Come and go, that's it. The Redskins win and the gas stations win, but that's about it. Maybe there's a McDonald's the next exit up if you're 'lucky'. After the event is over, what do you do? Get in the car and drive away. What does Washington DC get out of this? Absolutely nothing. You can call BOA a deadzone, but I call it an opportunity to showcase your city to 65,000 fans 10 game days of the year or so. It is also an opportunity to give these folks a great experience in the city. Keep in mind that people will come into the city and stay in hotels during game weekends, bowl weekends, and concerts if they are ever held. If the stadium was out in Fort Mill, those folks wouldn't be spending their money in the middle of the city. With the stadium tucked away in the corner and out of the way, you have a very nice set up in Charlotte and a way to bring in what amounts to probably close to a million people in your city a year. Call me crazy, but I'd rather have the people coming in and staying at my hotels, eating at my restaurants, spending money at my shops, and opening all kinds of doors for future business than to have all of this go to exit 3 out in the middle of nowhere putting just that many more cars on the road and spurring more sprawling strip malls as a result of its presence. Think long term...as the city grows and the light rail gets bigger, you're giving people many different ways to get in. You've also already got the stadium on what was probably a relatively inexpensive piece of land at the time. In other cities, doing something like this would be astronomically expensive, thus they may not have some of the options that they may like. BOA is there and I think everybody is lucky it is there, tucked away in the corner. It isn't like it is holding anything back. It is hidden away as it is to be used when needed and to say out of the way when it isn't.

[Sundodger]

Pittsburgh's two stadiums sit across the river from downtown and really make no effort to mesh with the rest of the city.

[Justadude]

Outside of having retail/restaurants wrapped around the stadium, what else could be put into a stadium that could be utilized on non-game days? The intent is to have a park next door which we all discussed in other threads. The problem with baseball/football stadiums is that they aren't utilized for anything else. Basketball arenas as we all know can accomodate many different things.

[Andyc545]

Baseball stadiums in particular are full of possibilities. It would have been fairly easy to integrate the stadium with the park in such a way that the public would have free access to everything besides the stands themselves. There are endless possibilities for taking advantage of such a setup: perhaps creating a plaza-type mezzanine where non-ticketholders can buy souveniers and take pictures. Perhaps place some permanent attractions there in a carnival style (how cool would it be to have a ferris wheel next to the stadium?). Maybe just have a bunch of vendors set up to create a little marketplace.

The key thing is that the park and stadium could have run together quite seamlessly; that would give us one of the best baseball venues in the country and greatly enhanced the value of Bearden Park. Instead we have a little park, and a little stadium, neither of which is particularly remarkable. I know that sounds cynical, but an average result is just disappointing in this case.

[Xss]

Well, I might add my own opinion and rant about downtown Charlotte since I've been there for one week and have just come back from the US.

Since I am not from Charlotte, my opinion might seem off-topic, but on the other hand I think it could interesting to have a "long feedback" about the feelings of a foreigner from Europe visiting your city.

In short words, let's just say that I found downtown Charlotte way more depressing than during last visit, and I just hope that future development will bring real life to that downtown. I'm quite optimistic about the future of Charlotte, but I'm not very surprised that some people here have the feeling that downtown Charlotte is not reviving.

Now, first I have to put some order in all the pictures we took during the trip if I want to post them in the forum! It's going to take me a few days!

[krazeeboi]

Seems like this discussion pops up every few months.

Firstly, and I don't know how many times I've said this, but why do some people seem to think that every single structure Uptown needs to generate pedestrian activity 24/7?

Secondly, I think it's clear that the arena is generating development within its vicinity, which is causing that area to see more activity on a more consistent basis. Compare that with any type of development BOA Stadium might have generated within its first few years.

I really think we tend to lack perspective here. Understand, Charlotte is still a relative newcomer to the "big cities club" and has suffered what several Sunbelt cities that came of age in the era of sprawl have suffered. Hell, residents of Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, etc.--cities much larger and more developed than Charlotte--have the very same discussions about their cities. It simply isn't fair to compare Charlotte to DC, San Francisco, Chicago, or any European city in that regard. In my view, Charlotte's progress is glaringly obvious.

[brianrri]

Seems like this discussion pops up every few months.

Firstly, and I don't know how many times I've said this, but why do some people seem to think that every single structure Uptown needs to generate pedestrian activity 24/7?

Secondly, I think it's clear that the arena is generating development within its vicinity, which is causing that area to see more activity on a more consistent basis. Compare that with any type of development BOA Stadium might have generated within its first few years.

I really think we tend to lack perspective here. Understand, Charlotte is still a relative newcomer to the "big cities club" and has suffered what several Sunbelt cities that came of age in the era of sprawl have suffered. Hell, residents of Atlanta, Houston, Dallas, etc.--cities much larger and more developed than Charlotte--have the very same discussions about their cities. It simply isn't fair to compare Charlotte to DC, San Francisco, Chicago, or any European city in that regard. In my view, Charlotte's progress is glaringly obvious.

[monsoon]

..... It simply isn't fair to compare Charlotte to DC, San Francisco, Chicago, or any European city in that regard. In my view, Charlotte's progress is glaringly obvious.

[Andyc545]

I think it is very fair to make these comparisons. There has been literally billions of dollars spent in this city over the last 5 years in new development yet most of it is very bad. There is no reason that it has to be this way but unfortunately it is.

[monsoon]

^There are 100 sq miles of starter home developments that have been built in the city, much of it in the last 5 years. Or do you consider Charlotte to only include what is known as downtown, and the rest of it does not matter?