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2035 Triangle Regional Transit Vision Plan


ChiefJoJo

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I doubt driverless cars will have a significant impact on the upcoming tax referendum, which isn't that far away in time. It will win or lose depending on the perceived usefulness of the proposed system to the 85% of Wake County voters that live OTB. The more rail in the proposed system, the less chance it has of passing. Most leaders in Raleigh and Wake have already acquiesced to that line of thought, even if they have misgivings about a mostly-bus approach. A few are still holding out for some rail. 

Edited by ctl
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Well I think the argument went from why rail when we can have BRT? Now that rail is dead, we will hear why BRT when we can just have increased bus service? Then it will be, bus service is so 20th century-its time for driverless cars. Fast forward 20 years, why driverless cars when we can have Jetsons-like space craft?

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If driverless cars are able to use road space more efficiently than human drivers then doesn't logic suggest that we stop spending any money on roads since we certainly have enough capacity for a fully automated road system.

Doubtful.  Aside from the fact that even at its most efficient usage, roads still have a finite capacity, you'll still have to spend money to keep the roads from turning into gravel. Roads cost $10M/lane/mile to maintain without traffic.  Even if you were to put vehicles on it that can maximize the number of humans per unit, you are essentially building a gold-plated mass transit system out of asphalt.  Although a network of 40 lane roads would look like something out of a 1950s futurist magazine(I'm assuming the city and county will continue to grow), it would probably be cheaper for the county to launch people into space to live if they are going to forego land use and density planning and a scalable transportation system. 

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I doubt that driverless cars  will solve Raleigh's or Charlotte traffic problems. It is a pie in the sky dream that driverless cars will make things better.  It is not giving a person much of a choice on types of  transportation  for their needs.  BRT are find if they have their own lane,  but if you mix it with regular traffic, you lose any advantage of what the BRT is designed for.

Our hope is the cooler heads will get to take over the NC legislature. All LRT in North Carolina is dead for now.

It is a shame that Chapel Hill - Durham  LRT has been torpedo before it could break ground.

Raleigh could build a system like Austin TX and would be cheaper that over head lines. 

I hope that this is a minor setback.

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Rail in Wake appears to be focusing on commuter trains, mostly during rush hours but perhaps a single mid-day run on each line. I suspect the initial services will be Raleigh-Cary-RTP-Durham and Raleigh-Garner-Clayton using the NCRR corridor. Later on... extension of the Clayton service to Selma or Goldsboro (still NCRR), addition of Raleigh-Knightdale-Wendell-Zebulon (track currently leased to a short-line freight railroad but out of service), addition of Raleigh-Wake Forest-Youngsville (would require negotiation with CSX), and addition of Raleigh-Fuquay Varina (would require negotiation with NS). But some of those are 20 years away. The first phase of the Raleigh Union Station project won't have the capacity to handle all these commuter trains, so Phases II and III will be required. Plus a servicing facility will have to be constructed for the trainsets and locomotives (I don't believe the current NCDOT facility across from the old Seaboard station can handle it).

Edited by ctl
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So if they decide to throw a whole bunch of resources at commuter rail, that basically means they are taking the advice of their consultants and tossing it out the window and going back to the 2012 plan right? I don't recall seeing anything resembling commuter rail in any of the "Transit Choices" reports. The reports did mention Rapid Rail as an option, but that was calling for 15 minute all-day service, and it seems that idea has been thoroughly squashed, by Norfolk Southern just as much as the legislature.

 

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  • 1 month later...

It's kind of sad how this forum has died lately, but it's not due to lack of progress in the urbanization of Raleigh and the Triangle.

The Wake Transit Plan proposal was released yesterday.

Generally speaking, I am supportive of the plan. I do wish the plan was a little more detailed. I think that detail will be added in the future, but I want it NOW. 

I think that they probably got the investment ratio right (infrastructure vs service, ridership vs coverage.)

Here is my take.

BUSES
The plan calls for a significant boost to bus service in central Raleigh. This could have the potential to be a game changer. I used to ride the bus quite a lot more than I do now, and the low frequency was definitely a drag. you literally had to live your life around the miserable hourly bus schedules. You would have to plan to be at the stop 10 minutes early to wait for the bus to be absolutely sure you don't miss it, and if it was running late, you wind up wasting a great deal of time. Hourly frequency really limits what you're able to do in a day and makes spontaneity and flexibility nearly impossible.

I suspect there are a surprisingly large number of people like me who would be willing to try giving up a car (or becoming a one-car household) if bus service were better.

When it comes to route planning and scheduling, the devil is in the details. The map of red lines on page 10 shows where the biggest frequency improvements are planned, though it doesn't provide the context of the lower-frequency routes. I also wonder if those red lines are just placeholders or are actually finalized proposals resulting from careful study and route planning. I suspect they are placeholders.

We have difficult geography for transit in the Triangle; roads are haphazardly organized such that it is difficult to create a 'grid'. Perfect routes are therefore not possible; Nevertheless I think improvements are possible over what is drawn on page 10.
I think the surface route that parallels the beltline along Northridge, St Albans, and Yonkers road will be too slow and meandering to be popular. Either find a way to run the buses on the beltline itself, or get rid of it.
If that route is eliminated I would extend frequent service further into North Raleigh - up Glenwood, Six Forks, and Falls of Neuse as far as Millbrook - and into Cary/Apex via Crossroads and WakeMed Cary.

BUS RAPID TRANSIT
Focusing on BRT may be wise given the legislature still has an onerous restriction against state money being used for light rail.

The BRT lines as drawn are in the right place.

New Bern has plenty of median space for full dedicated lanes and the ridership to justify it so I hope that's what they are planning.

Western/Chatham is a bit of a question mark to me. Dedicated lanes would help a lot between Gorman and Avent Ferry. I would say they should get rid of Faucette Drive and widen Western into that space, with wide sidewalks, attractive streetscaping, dedicated bus lanes in the shoulder, queue jumpers westbound at Gorman and eastbound at Avent Ferry, and a station right at the new planned pedestrian underpass. But other than this congested stretch right by NCSU, maybe this one could be BRT-lite: mostly consolidating bus stops and building nice shelters, especially considering that it somewhat duplicates the commuter rail corridor. How they will deal with the western half of this corridor along Hillsborough/Chatham is anybody's guess.

Capital is an important corridor and the proposal seems timid to me: the the "BRT" portion ends ITB at Wake Forest Road, devolving into a frequent but standard bus route north of there. But if there's any one corridor in the city that really needs full-on BRT, this is it. Dedicated lanes and signal preemption should extend as far as Mini City. The existing median is wide enough south of Brentwood and north of Louisburg Road; given the expense of widening, I would boldly propose taking away a general purpose traffic lane between Brentwood and Louisburg. 

South Wilmington is not a busy road north of its junction with South Saunders, so dedicated lanes are unnecessary. Between there and the 70/401 split the corridor seems wide enough for dedicated lanes, and could really benifit from an aesthetic overhaul to boot.

What they will do with these BRT lines downtown is an interesting question. Will they connect with Union Station or Moore Square or both, and what route will they follow to get there?

COMMUTER RAIL
My first reaction was that this is a lot of money to spend for not a lot of service, and if we can't get better service out of rail then I'd rather it go towards frequent buses and more/better bus rapid transit.

But on further consideration, I realized that this is a "down payment" - an incremental step towards the more comprehensive regional rail network that I believe we will desperately need 25 years from now. The first phase proposed here will doubtless involve double-tracking the entire NCRR between Raleigh and Durham; at some point in the future when people around here are more used to and comfortable with transit, we can extend it (to Clayton and Mebane), add branches (to Wake Forest, Apex, Zebulon, Fuquay), add a third and even fourth track to add capacity and frequency to the core Raleigh-Durham route. Electrification may eventually be in the cards.

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1 hour ago, orulz said:

COMMUTER RAIL
My first reaction was that this is a lot of money to spend for not a lot of service, and if we can't get better service out of rail then I'd rather it go towards frequent buses and more/better bus rapid transit.

But on further consideration, I realized that this is a "down payment" - an incremental step towards the more comprehensive regional rail network that I believe we will desperately need 25 years from now. The first phase proposed here will doubtless involve double-tracking the entire NCRR between Raleigh and Durham; at some point in the future when people around here are more used to and comfortable with transit, we can extend it (to Clayton and Mebane), add branches (to Wake Forest, Apex, Zebulon, Fuquay), add a third and even fourth track to add capacity and frequency to the core Raleigh-Durham route. Electrification may eventually be in the cards.

I agree about the down payment aspect of the commuter rail plan. One thing to keep in mind is double tracking to Mebane only leaves a very short segment of the NCRR single tracked west of Raleigh. Double tracking from Mebane / Burlington to Greensboro suddenly makes it possible (in the future) to have extraordinary frequencies on NC intercity routes -- tying NC's dispersed urban system together could create some substantial economic development benefits (e.g. creating a single labor market from High Point to Garner) as well as increasing demand for local transit in the Triangle. I am not suggesting that Triangle Transit should pay for this, just that it is an interesting opportunity for the Triad area.

Was there no mention of bikeshare in the transit plan? Seems like that could solve a significant number of last mile difficulties and Triangle area demographics are well suited to it.  

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For all practical purposes the BRT would really go all the way to the Greyhound/Salvation Army at Capital and Crabtree...why not show it there I wonder. Trying to nail down decent bus routes really does show how terribly this area is connected....North Hills to Raleigh Community to Wake Med is essentially impossible (thats what it seems like they are trying to accomplish). I wonder if some road projects could be done to compliment this plan...like say finally pushing Six Forks through to Capital, and then sending the bus down it and on to Yonkers to Wake Med. 

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11 hours ago, Jones_ said:

For all practical purposes the BRT would really go all the way to the Greyhound/Salvation Army at Capital and Crabtree...why not show it there I wonder. Trying to nail down decent bus routes really does show how terribly this area is connected....North Hills to Raleigh Community to Wake Med is essentially impossible (thats what it seems like they are trying to accomplish). I wonder if some road projects could be done to compliment this plan...like say finally pushing Six Forks through to Capital, and then sending the bus down it and on to Yonkers to Wake Med. 

Good thought about Six Forks, I would argue just turning left onto Mellowfield / Ratchford, and connecting the two segments of Ratchford, would probably be enough for starters.

But my preference would still be to put the buses on the beltline itself with stops at interchanges. A fantastic and  fast BRT line.

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On 12/9/2015 at 3:54 PM, orulz said:

COMMUTER RAIL
My first reaction was that this is a lot of money to spend for not a lot of service, and if we can't get better service out of rail then I'd rather it go towards frequent buses and more/better bus rapid transit.

But on further consideration, I realized that this is a "down payment" - an incremental step towards the more comprehensive regional rail network that I believe we will desperately need 25 years from now. The first phase proposed here will doubtless involve double-tracking the entire NCRR between Raleigh and Durham; at some point in the future when people around here are more used to and comfortable with transit, we can extend it (to Clayton and Mebane), add branches (to Wake Forest, Apex, Zebulon, Fuquay), add a third and even fourth track to add capacity and frequency to the core Raleigh-Durham route. Electrification may eventually be in the cards.

Looking at all the rail lines going into Raleigh and the communities they run through, the region is set up quite well for a future hub and spoke network of commuter rail. I just hope the new station will be able to accommodate that many trains. According to the NCDOT December Rail Report, construction should start soon.

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1 hour ago, cowboy_wilhelm said:

Looking at all the rail lines going into Raleigh and the communities they run through, the region is set up quite well for a future hub and spoke network of commuter rail. I just hope the new station will be able to accommodate that many trains. According to the NCDOT December Rail Report, construction should start soon.

I don't think I've ever seen new track installed...not in a picture...not anywhere...so that report was pretty cool just from that perspective. But I think its pretty cool they even have such a publication. If you wanted to say, post a link to it here every how often they publish, I'd be cool with that ;)

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22 minutes ago, Jones_ said:

I don't think I've ever seen new track installed...not in a picture...not anywhere...so that report was pretty cool just from that perspective. But I think its pretty cool they even have such a publication. If you wanted to say, post a link to it here every how often they publish, I'd be cool with that ;)

I didn't find out about them until fairly recently. This link should take you to the NCDOT rail resources documents page, filtered for reports. It looks like they have monthly rail reports dating back to November 2013.

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12 hours ago, cowboy_wilhelm said:

I just hope the new station will be able to accommodate that many trains.

There are several aspects to that hope. (1) Track capacity. The first phase of the new station has only two tracks, intended for Amtrak, but there is a provision for additional tracks later. (2) People capacity inside the station -- seating, toilets, ticketing, etc. The design is probably good enough in that respect. (3) Onward connections -- bus, car, walking, etc. Walking won't be a problem, but vehicle access in and out of the station will always be limited because of the peculiarities of the site. 

In short, the new station will be an improvement over the current one (except with respect to onsite parking) and it will have modest usefulness for commuter trains if additional money is spent.

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For any rail projects in any city in North Carolina is dead until the law can to change from the $500,000 limit.  It has put cities in a bind on transportation planning.

For Raleigh, their best bet now is improve bus service.  If you get a LRT system in a few years, you need good bus service to support it.

Charlotte has bus service to most of the South Blue Stations out side Center City,   Charlotte has 4 Transportation Centers with The Charlotte Transportation Center is the main connecting hub for CATS bus and rail routes.  

I hope Raleigh can get their Transportation System serving the people of Raleigh better. As Raleigh grows, it  need to gives people a choice of transportation besides driving a car.

 

Edited by RiverwoodCLT
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On 12/15/2015 at 3:22 PM, RiverwoodCLT said:

For any rail projects in any city in North Carolina is dead until the law can to change from the $500,000 limit. 

 

First of all, it specifically said light rail and didn't apply to commuter rail and second, it was removed from the budget was it not?

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The final legislation is posted at http://ncleg.net/sessions/2015/bills/house/html/h97v9.html. It was signed by the governor on Sept 18. Near the bottom it reads:

MAXIMUM FUNDING EXPENDED FOR LIGHT RAIL TRANSIT SYSTEM PROJECTS

SECTION 29.41.(a)  G.S. 136‑189.11 is amended by adding a new subsection to read:

"(e1)     Limitation on Funding for Light Rail Transit System Projects. – Notwithstanding any provision of this section to the contrary, the cumulative amount of funds subject to this section that are expended for light rail transit system projects shall not exceed the sum of five hundred thousand dollars ($500,000) per project."

SECTION 29.41.(b)  This section is effective when this act becomes law.

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That steers toward what lawyers call statutory interpretation and canons of construction. The most likely interpretation by a court is plain language. I don't think commuter rail as proposed in Wake County would be included, but otherwise you're going to have a hard time convincing the NC Supreme Court that "light rail transit system" means anything but what a guy on the street would think it means.

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On ‎12‎/‎18‎/‎2015 at 5:02 AM, ctl said:

That steers toward what lawyers call statutory interpretation and canons of construction. The most likely interpretation by a court is plain language. I don't think commuter rail as proposed in Wake County would be included, but otherwise you're going to have a hard time convincing the NC Supreme Court that "light rail transit system" means anything but what a guy on the street would think it means.

the proposed Wake (and Durham) commuter rail proposal is NOT subject to the $500,000 limit

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On 12/18/2015 at 9:59 PM, Jones_ said:

Any way to work around the definition of "Light Raleigh Transit System"? I don't even see a definition and I've searched up and down GS 136

I believe "light rail" is more of a descriptive term and doesn't have a strict definition, even though the differences between light rail, commuter rail and inter-city rail are usually pretty clear. Hypothetically, the Durham-Chapel Hill light rail project could be called a streetcar or tram instead and would not fall under the $500,000 cap, since it specifically states "light rail" in the legislation. However, I don't think it would be worth the risk since that could lead to legislation capping funding for all rail transit projects.

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On 12/15/2015 at 5:56 AM, ctl said:

There are several aspects to that hope. (1) Track capacity. The first phase of the new station has only two tracks, intended for Amtrak, but there is a provision for additional tracks later. (2) People capacity inside the station -- seating, toilets, ticketing, etc. The design is probably good enough in that respect. (3) Onward connections -- bus, car, walking, etc. Walking won't be a problem, but vehicle access in and out of the station will always be limited because of the peculiarities of the site. 

In short, the new station will be an improvement over the current one (except with respect to onsite parking) and it will have modest usefulness for commuter trains if additional money is spent.

Track capacity and platforms are what I had in mind. I think full build-out of the station was calling for three platforms serving five tracks (one on the S-Line and another commuter platform on the NCRR; correct me if I'm wrong), with little room for expansion. IF a full commuter rail network is built utilizing the NCRR, CSX to Apex and Wake Forest, and potentially NS to Fuquay and maybe even Zebulon, you're going to have a lot of trains coming in from all directions at peak times, plus Amtrak. I'm not saying it can't be done, but it doesn't leave much room for delays.

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The original concept of a "union station" in 2009-10 was a facility large enough to serve SEHSR (assuming it's built someday), other Amtrak/NCDOT intercity trains, commuter trains, and easy access to bus and light rail. But financial reality set in, the idea of repurposing the Dillon facility came to the forefront, and Citrix took the space where the original concept was centered.

If SEHSR is built and if commuter trains eventually serve six routes (Durham, WF/Franklinton, Wendell, Garner/Clayton/Selma, FV, Apex), the new station will prove to be way too small. But that's a lot of if's, and the day of reckoning would be far in the future, and in the meantime we need a replacement for the tiny station we have.

Edited by ctl
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I don't worry about future expansion capacity. I figure if any further platform capacity is needed, there is plenty of room to the south of the existing tracks. The tunnel they are building to reach the first platform could just be extended under the mainline tracks to reach the extra platforms. This would also give the option to maybe build a second entrance to the Union Station complex on the south side of the tracks in the W Cabarrus St / Boylan Heights area.

I think the Western Blvd BRT should definitely be connected to Union Station as well. The easy way would be to use Boylan Avenue, and that would work, but that's a somewhat indirect way through a SFH neighborhood with 25mph speed limits and several stoplights, and it's not likely the BRT will be stopping there so it may encounter neighborhood opposition.

An alternate, better, but more capital-intensive option would be to use the rail corridor that runs between central prison and Boylan Heights. I have long thought that the NS line towards Fuquay should be abandoned south of downtown, and a connection built from the NCRR somewhere in the vicinity of I-40 and Rush Street. The existing rail corridor, to me, could be put to better use than a low traffic freight branch line, and that would have the benefit of removing the rail line that chops up the prime real estate west of Union Station and slices through Boylan Wye with a diamond crossing. Given the latest transit plan calls for BRT along Western Blvd, The NS line with the bridge over Western Blvd could then become a very fast way for buses from the Western Blvd BRT to connect to Union Station. From there, take Hargett and/or Martin to Moore Square, and then up Blount/Person to it connects to the New Bern Avenue BRT line. This could also carry other bus routes such as a rapid bus shuttle between Union Station and Centennial Campus.

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