2035 Triangle Regional Transit Vision Plan

[Gard]

^

I completely agree with you. Now is actually a great time to lock in lower costs for construction and at the same time invigorate the local economy a bit with some of the work involved in putting it all together.

[orulz]

Transit routes are now being incorporated in Google Maps. At the moment, it seems like everything except the regional express routes and Duke Transit are included. (Not sure if Duke Transit is even open to the public though; if not it probably won't ever be included.)

One issue is that loop routes like the R-line or most Wolfline routes are not correctly coded. For example, if you are riding the R-line past the convention center, Google indicates that you must change buses.

[orulz]

The next round of public meetings on the transit plan are set. The schedule is available here. The previous round of meetings focused on which corridors would come first; this round will focus more around the detailed alternatives for the selected corridors (station locations, more specific routings, etc.)

[Gard]

Transit Planners have revived the Light Rail Plan, including adding some new, more viable ways to lay the lines. A plan for going into North Raleigh has the trains running east (instead of west) of Capital blvd, with 2 stops and a huge park n ride at TTC. There is also consideration for a stop at Salisbury/Wilmington, which would put a stop right at the doorstep of major employment centers downtown.

http://www.newsobserver.com/2011/03/28/1087071/triangle-revives-plans-for-mass.html

[orulz]

There is a meeting about choosing transit routes and stations at the McKimmon Center near Western & Gorman in Raleigh tomorrow (3/29/2011) - be there or be square.

Read up on it all right here.

As Gard mentioned, there are some new route options on the table. Finding the right balance between cost, accessibility to the downtown core, and travel time will be difficult. Unfortunately, unlike Charlotte, we just don't have an existing, abandoned, grade-separated rail line two blocks from downtown's main drag.

In my opinion, access to the Fayetteville Street area is essential. The alternatives that use West and Harrington (D2, D3, D6) would benefit North Raleighites going to NCSU with shorter travel times, but would leave us with a mile long walk (or a transfer to the R-line) to get from the nearest light rail station to Memorial Auditorium or the Convention Center.

If cost were no object we'd have a downtown subway serving everywhere, but of course cost is paramount so we're going to end up with some street running no matter what. The alternative with tracks on South/Wilmington/Salisbury (D5) includes a long expensive viaduct; I have a suggestion that might avoid that: Have a look. It is sort of a D5/D6 hybrid.

[Jones_]

I am not sure what the rush to get back in the rail corridor is all about. Once in the street stay in the street. (I don't know how to use google maps well) Get on Morgan, stay there to Person. Head north up Wake Forest (which is lightly traveled by car) and rejoin the tracks much later at Atlantic. Coming back use Blount-Edenton-West and back to Morgan. Stops at Capital Square, North Person and Circus Burger

[orulz]

I am not sure what the rush to get back in the rail corridor is all about. Once in the street stay in the street. (I don't know how to use google maps well) Get on Morgan, stay there to Person. Head north up Wake Forest (which is lightly traveled by car) and rejoin the tracks much later at Atlantic. Coming back use Blount-Edenton-West and back to Morgan. Stops at Capital Square, North Person and Circus Burger

That's an interesting idea but my take is that it adds a lot of on-street running as compared to the Salisbury/Wilmington option (D5), without gaining much.

-The street running is slower.

-You get a station at Circus Burger instead of Whitaker Mill. IMO neither is especially a better spot than another.

-You get a station at North Person instead of Seaboard. Again, both are pretty good places for a station..

-You don't serve the southern half of downtown directly. The Convention Center and Memorial Auditorium are both a half mile away.

-Because of the street running on Morgan (which is a pretty hilly street especially around the railroad and Glenwood) you have to change the grade (aka tear down buildings and bring in a lot of fill dirt) in order to achieve an ADA compliant station anywhere near Union Station.

I went to the meeting yesterday and showed my idea to the lead engineer for the project. He seemed to think that it wasn't a bad idea, although he didn't really like the 'D5' alternative it was based on very much to begin with because of how narrow Wilmington/Salisbury are and how introducing a dedicated light rail line would impact their configuration.

They planned the line on Wilmington/Salisbury as a right-side curb running facility, which has the benefit of being sharable with buses, but the disadvantage of having people conditioned to right-on-red turning into the path of trains. I suggested left-side running which he agreed might solve that problem, but that gets a bit more complicated when it comes to entering Wilmington Street. Light rail trains can't turn that sharply. They would probably have to take a chunk out of the corner of the city-owned lot at the NW corner of South/Wilmington.

He emphasized the fact that Raleigh has rather narrow streets downtown so fitting light rail even into a one-way street is challenging.u

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

went to the meeting yesterday and showed my idea to the lead engineer for the project. He seemed to think that it wasn't a bad idea, although he didn't really like the 'D5' alternative it was based on very much to begin with because of how narrow Wilmington/Salisbury are and how introducing a dedicated light rail line would impact their configuration.

They planned the line on Wilmington/Salisbury as a right-side curb running facility, which has the benefit of being sharable with buses, but the disadvantage of having people conditioned to right-on-red turning into the path of trains. I suggested left-side running which he agreed might solve that problem, but that gets a bit more complicated when it comes to entering Wilmington Street. Light rail trains can't turn that sharply. They would probably have to take a chunk out of the corner of the city-owned lot at the NW corner of South/Wilmington.

He emphasized the fact that Raleigh has rather narrow streets downtown so fitting light rail even into a one-way street is challenging.u

@ Orulz,

I love your idea, could the first bridge, going over the Union Station not go "into" the station? I wish that I had been able to go to one of these viewings....too much work!

[Jones_]

Funny, I distinctly remember other planning meetings pointing out, and lamenting at times, the excessive width of raleigh streets (compared to places like Charleston, Alexandria and other colonial places). The 66' and 99' ROW includes the sidewalk in most of downtown (not around the parks) so I guess that portion is committed. Wilmington/Salisbury are lightly used (since they really don't go anywhere) so I am all about using them in your scenario. Just musing, I can't help but notice that Morgan's hill is largely fabricated...by the rail bridge. It the old days (up to 1995 or whenever it was built) it was a gentle slope from Bloomsbury Hill (like my new geographical reference?) down to the relatively flat grid. Regardless, we are stuck with it now. I don't tend to want to pander to tourists over the needs of permanent residents. The short walk from Union Square to the Convention Center seemed like a nice setup for pedicab business. (4, 400' blocks and 4, 66' streets is only 1864' feet or a hair over a third of a mile), Let 'em walk I say. They can check out Fayetteville Street on the way. In town residents are more apt to be heading to museums than the CC anyway. Jojo had discussed Hargett Street with me a few times...I suppose that did not make the cut for one reason or another. That would sort have been a hybrid of you and I Orulz.

I am babbling a bit and sure I have missed some primary points here....

[orulz]

One of the main reasons running directly down Morgan, Hargett, or Martin are off the table is that DOT has established an immutable constraint that Dawson, McDowell, and Capital (aka US401) absolutely must not be crossed at grade. And thinking about it, if they did, it probably would wind up severely impacting either the streets or the light rail or both. The closest places to have grade-separated crossings without huge new viaducts in the middle of downtown is at either of the railroad corridors: CSX to the north (D2, D3, D6) or NCRR to the south (D5 plus my alternative.)

As for the width of Raleigh's streets, they certainly are wider than that of Charleston, Savannah, Alexandria, etc, however, none of those towns are trying to put a light rail line that has signal priority and is separated from traffic down any of their streets. I can think of at least one colonial city that DOES have on-street light rail: Boston. But everywhere that the green line runs on-street has way more space to work with than we do here in Raleigh. Looks like a minimum of a 120' right of way for on-street light rail in Beantown. Baltimore is an example of fitting light rail into streets about the same width as Raleigh's, but they practically turned Howard Street into a transit mall in order to do it.

[citiboi27610]

One of the main reasons running directly down Morgan, Hargett, or Martin are off the table is that DOT has established an immutable constraint that Dawson, McDowell, and Capital (aka US401) absolutely must not be crossed at grade. And thinking about it, if they did, it probably would wind up severely impacting either the streets or the light rail or both. The closest places to have grade-separated crossings without huge new viaducts in the middle of downtown is at either of the railroad corridors: CSX to the north (D2, D3, D6) or NCRR to the south (D5 plus my alternative.)

With that being said, the Harrington/West option seems the best as far as diminishing impacts on the the McDowell/Dawson corridor. As long as the design for Union Station provides for easy transfer between modes (ie. Light Rail to R Line) I don't see a huge problem for anyone (tourists) connecting to the Convention Center. In some way, most of the CAT lines will have to be rearranged.

My biggest concern with these plans is that the no matter what, the east side of downtown looses out on convenient and logical connections to the light rail. Like the most of the areas inside of the beltline, this area is relatively dense and has the potential for more intense development, but lacks a rail line going through the center of it. This will be a lost oppurtunity for the city in spreading development interests, not to say that I believe that it is anyone's fault. It's about geography.

[Jones_]

^ Our current rail bed configuration is about who knew who in the 1850's. Even back then geography could be overcome with huge trestles and massive digging projects....Bloomsbury hill had a huge swath cut through it for instance. Thanks for pointing what I should have realize about Dawson/McDowell Orulz. There would be no way to adapt the train schedules to the sequenced traffic lights....duh on me. I am surprised the east CAC's are not weighing in for easterly routes...namely some version of your approach....

[orulz]

Ok I got some clarification about light rail crossing McDowell/Dawson at grade. The crossing would be allowed, but signal priority would not. Eastbound trains would have to stop at Dawson and Westbound trains would have to stop at McDowell. The lights could be timed so that trains would not have to stop at both Dawson AND McDowell, but they might have to stop and wait for the signal at one.

Regardless if street running is in the picture anyway, I still prefer the Wilmington/Salisbury option. I'd rather have less than half a mile walk to the convention center and Memorial Auditorium.

[Jones_]

For clarity, I too prefer Wilmington/Salisbury. Those streets have room (are underutilized) and are right smack in the middle of the business district. Perfect.

[DaleCooper]

As part of a project at Rutgers, I put together a concept for Union Station. It wasn't really originally intended to be something to show around, but as I spent more time on it I liked the direction it was heading, so I put up a web page for it:

I assume parts of it are unpractical and unrealistic, but sometimes it is fun to get the imagination going.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

As part of a project at Rutgers, I put together a concept for Union Station. It wasn't really originally intended to be something to show around, but as I spent more time on it I liked the direction it was heading, so I put up a web page for it:

I assume parts of it are unpractical and unrealistic, but sometimes it is fun to get the imagination going.

Way cool!!! You have done an excellent job, thank you for taking the time to show a great vision!

You may want to add your link to the "Raleigh MultiModal Transportation Center" as well.

Again, thank you! And keep up the great work!

[Jones_]

I dig what you did. Its more like Union Station for the year 2500 based on the size like you said. I am an advocate of letting the imagination run wild before final design starts on anything.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

If the light rail tracks don't go over the West Morgan st bridge, could or should we try to incorporate an extension of Glenwood ave directly into the Union Station complex?

Edited April 22, 2011 by DwnTwnRaleighGuy

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I was trying to remember,(reading past post), on the subject of the Light Rail System,(LRS), sharing space with Amtrak, NCRR, etc...No matter which way the LRS comes into downtown, we are looking at a flyover for the entire system? Or just as it comes into downtown Raleigh? I was under the impression that the LRS could share an expanded/widened track area?

[orulz]

Light rail would mostly be at ground level, similar to the 2005 DMU proposal. Other than the new downtown flyovers, I think the only other bridges on the Wake corridor would be where the existing railroad already bridges over a road or creek.

Just a reminder, today is the last day to submit comments on the proposals, so please look through the materials and submit your comments. ourtransitfuture.com

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Can we continue Glenwood Ave,(currently ending @ West Morgan St), into this complex? I know that this idea had been in the previous two Union Station/Wye plans?

[orulz]

I imagine that they'll come up with several alternative, final plans for union station and at least some of them will likely use the Glenwood/Morgan intersection as an entry point for buses and/or the parking garage.

Another option would be to have the Union Station building as the terminus of Glenwood avenue, with the area opposite Glenwood being a prominent pedestrian entrance, similar to how Memorial Auditorium and the state capitol are the termini of Fayetteville Street.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I imagine that they'll come up with several alternative, final plans for union station and at least some of them will likely use the Glenwood/Morgan intersection as an entry point for buses and/or the parking garage.

Another option would be to have the Union Station building as the terminus of Glenwood avenue, with the area opposite Glenwood being a prominent pedestrian entrance, similar to how Memorial Auditorium and the state capitol are the termini of Fayetteville Street.

I know that I am bringing up another blog here but in talking about the Union Station complex, has the City of Raleigh decided on or selected the architectural firm that will design this Union Station complex? I have been to the City of Raleigh's website and I am not able to find the answer to this question...Help! Thoughts?

[Gard]

This isn't about this transit plan per say, but very cool non the less! Kane has launched a study to investigate building a transit system for North HIlls. The transit system would have 4-person passenger cars that would take people to transit stops around North HIlls on-demand. The cars would ride on a fixed rail. Pretty neat idea and solution that could be used to adapt current sprawled areas to be more friendly to mass transit. I can see something like this working well in areas like TTC, where the terrain is different levels and things are spread out a bit.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/business/expanding-north-hills-considers-installing-its-own-transit-system

[Gard]

This isn't about this transit plan per say, but very cool non the less! Kane has launched a study to investigate building a transit system for North HIlls. The transit system would have 4-person passenger cars that would take people to transit stops around North HIlls on-demand. The cars would ride on a fixed rail. Pretty neat idea and solution that could be used to adapt current sprawled areas to be more friendly to mass transit. I can see something like this working well in areas like TTC, where the terrain is different levels and things are spread out a bit.

http://blogs.newsobserver.com/business/expanding-north-hills-considers-installing-its-own-transit-system