2035 Triangle Regional Transit Vision Plan

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

@ ctl

 

Not to get off of Transit topic, but I question voting per district for county commissioners, due to districts constantly being in flux depending on the party in power. imho

[Spatula]

My favorite system for any council or legislature-resembling body would be a proportional voting system. Everyone votes for a party and their top candidates. The parties fill the seats proportionately and the candidates fill the seats of their party by the number of votes they get. Everyone gets representation in some form, and instead of having strict majorities and minorities there's a plurality of views present.

 

But most Americans haven't heard of this so the idea is pretty much nonexistant in this country.

 

I have issues with dividing a council that votes on the uses of everyone's tax dollars in the county into respective districts. People in noncompetitive districts would have no say in how their money gets spent, effectively. People in other districts would fight those battles and decide. I tend to not like single-seat districts for that reason, well that and gerrymandering.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Looks as if the ceremony for Union Station has been delayed until July:

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/real-estate/2015/03/raleigh-delays-ceremony-union-station-project.html

[BHennington]

I personally am looking forward to the Union Station- Raleigh project. I think it will really bring a much needed revitalization to the area and provide a beautiful hub to showcase that end of town.

 

It is increasingly irritating and short-sighted to hear from the non-light rail advocates throughout Raleigh. The arguments always revolve around "not enough density' or "not cost effective as a transportation system." From my experience light-rail increases density dramatically and is far less expensive to build when density is lower in an area. It is also unrealistic to think that a government operated transportation system such as light rail will break even. It just will not happen. It will however provide an increase in tax revenue through development for the city providing funding to support. It comes down to proper management and the ability to see past the next 5, 10, or even 20 years. Buses will provide transportation, but they will also add insult to injury with traffic congestion. The decisions that are made today will ultimately decide what type of city we will be. The average person, with zero infrastructure background, has a difficult time relating to projects that cost $1 billion plus and throwing around numbers to "help" them decide can be a distracting factor, if not detrimental to the study.

 

just my 2 cents..

Edited March 24, 2015 by BHennington

[ctl]

I'm delighted to see Union Station go forward. Even if it triggers no development in its vicinity, it will replace a bad station from 1950 -- and that's a step in the right direction. My main complaint about the project, aside from poor management of construction cost, is that it will have fewer parking spaces than the current station. That's insane. 

 

Light rail is dead dead dead. Accept it and move on. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by ctl

[BHennington]

I'm delighted to see Union Station go forward. Even if it triggers no development in its vicinity, it will replace a bad station from 1950 -- and that's a step in the right direction. My main complaint about the project, aside from poor management of construction cost, is that it will have fewer parking spaces than the current station. That's insane. 

 

Light rail is dead dead dead. Accept it and move on. 

I am trying to accept the "dead" light rail.. you are correct.. it is a reality that there will not be enough supporters. As far as transportation options, are we to simply accept buses as the default? What other choices do we have and how can they fit into the "Raleigh" way of life (whatever that may be). I am not convinced buses are the answer. Maybe providing incentives for better taxi service to create competition and lower the rates? Not sure if Raleigh is ready to put down the keys and board a bus. Just my opinion though.

[ctl]

I hope no one is saying that bus is the only answer for all time. At some point commuter rail will emerge as viable. The likelihood that it happens within 5 years is low, but the likelihood that it happens within 20 years is at least 50%. 

Edited March 24, 2015 by ctl

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Wake county transit cost to double:

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county/article17563127.html

At least we will get four options instead of just two. More options, more planning, more cost, more informed...hopefully a better all around transit plan for as many people as possible?

[orulz]

No time to comment but the consultant's suggested "scenarios" are shown here:

(link from twitter)

Electric LRT is out, and DMU-based "rail rapid transit" is back in. I suspect this is because Norfolk Southern and NCRR are playing hardball over light rail in their corridor. So what exactly is "rail rapid transit?"

(link from twitter)

One of the benefits of this mode is that commuter rail and inner city rail could share infrastructure, including platforms, tracks and vehicles. But especially the High-Frequency Urban line plus Commuter Extensions option takes an awful lot of money for infrastructure leaving a rather paltry $24 million for service improvements, so we wind up with a big shiny new thing with lower total systemwide ridership than if we focused more on buses.

[orulz]

Of course, I might add, we might as well throw this whole notion of transit in the trash for now thanks to the gerrymandered districts being foisted upon us by the illustrious legislature in order to give Wake over to the GOP, in spite of the sizeable majority that dems hold in Wake. The districts give the GOP an 53-47 or 54-46 majority in five districts while dumping Dems into four vote sink districts of 80-20, 72-28, 65-35, and 59-41, giving dems at least an 18 point majority in each.

A 6-8 point GOP majority in a district is not insurmountable odds but it is pretty tough to overcome.

The districts will go into effect in 2018, so even if we get a transit tax approved before then, it's possible the coming GOP majority would just scrap it.

Everybody, get ready to say "Welcome Back!" to Paul Coble.

[RALNATIVE]

The N&O also ran an article today on the new rapid rail option. It sounds good in theory, but I'd love to see a detailed plan and more hard data before I'm sold on this idea:

 

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/wake-county/article17895290.html#/tabPane=tabs-b0710947-1-1

Edited April 9, 2015 by RALNATIVE

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

So what does it mean if rail rapid transit is in an commuter rail is out? I thought that those where just interchangeable words/same technology?

[Green_man]

Rail rapid transit sounds like DC's metro system to me.  Commuter rail is like their VRE.

 

It's somewhat surprising to me that diesel transit systems are still implemented knowing how dirty and environmentally unfriendly they are compared to electric systems.

[ctl]

What they're calling rapid rail is more like commuter trains than classic heavy rail a/k/a "subway" such as DC Metro or Atlanta MARTA. Rapid rail would still lie in the railroad corridors on the surface, although there will be an interesting discussion with the freight railroads about whether separate trackage will be required. The rapid rail equipment would be fully compatible in an operational sense with regular railroad equipment, whereas Metro and MARTA cars are not. The difference is that rapid rail would have more frequent station stops than what commuter rail usually offers, and this means the system is aimed more at intra-Wake transportation than at Durham-Raleigh or Goldsboro-Selma-Raleigh focused solely on DTR. It's true that rapid rail can be implemented with MU equipment instead of locomotive-pulled (or pushed) cars, but that's more of a technology distinction.

 

Diesel technology has improved. Coal-generated electricity is dirty too, but you don't see the dirt unless you live close to a Duke plant -- or the places where Duke now wants to store the toxic ash.

Edited April 10, 2015 by ctl

[orulz]

A few disorganized thoughts.

Really this is similar to what mainline passenger rail looks like in the rest of the non-US world, but there are few places you can point to here in the US that operate like this. Walker has a significant amount of experience in Australia and New Zealand where rail is operated like this and he may be looking to bring that model to the US.

1-mile stop spacing is probably a sweet spot that puts most of the area along the line within a 10 minute walk, but doesn't slow down trains too much. This is also a way to control costs; stations tend to be one of the more expensive parts of the program. I would be OK with a concrete slab with a modular aluminum shelter.

The US "commuter rail" model with a bunch of suburban stations for boarding passengers, funneling into a single downtown terminus in the morning, and then going back the other way in the evening, is very unusual when you look internationally.

Back in 2005, when TTA planning on using FRA equipment, the freight railroads wanted completely separate tracks. But even back then it always would have made more sense to treat the whole system as a multi-track railroad, with perhaps as many as four tracks along the spine from Cary to North Raleigh.

To me, the high-frequency portion of the line would absolutely need to extend up to Mini City. That's where the density is. Further extensions to Triangle Town Center might be nice too. This may wind up breaking the bank, which causes me again to question whether pushing rail ASAP should be a part of this plan or not. If we could postpone it or build it in phases and have more service improvements in the interim, maybe that would be be better. Build the Mini City to Downtown Cary portion for 15-minute frequency at the beginning, and have less frequent service mostly on existing tracks beyond there at first. Extend the frequent service beyond there at a later date.

[RiverwoodCLT]

Here is a video of Austin Metro rail. It uses Diesel technology.

Edited April 10, 2015 by RiverwoodCLT

[ctl]

Although to be clear, the coupler on that Austin train is a European design. You see it in some American light rail and subway systems but generally not on U.S. railroad lines which use a different coupler. And I suspect the brake system on the Austin cars is not compatible, either. These are engineering details that rapid rail in Wake would have to consider anew. 

[RiverwoodCLT]

Austin uses Stadler GTW made by Stadler Rail of Switzerland.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I noticed that Walkers comment about downtown Raleigh having only one stop/station @ civic center? Does he know about Union Station? Is this Rapid Rail option only viable at certain points? Not a good option for downtown Raleigh???

[orulz]

This is what a DMU fully compliant with current FRA regulations looks like. (From Toronto.)

Supposedly FRA will be revising the crashworthiness requirements to allow for lighter vehicles like Austin's under FRA standards, but yes, other aspects of FRA compliance will not change such as brakes and couplers.

[Euphorius]

This rapid rail concept is what has been studied here for 30 years. They're just using a different name to keep from pissing people off about wasting more money to come up with the same plan we've had for decades. Somehow I figured we would wind up back at this plan. All the planning experts here came up with this plan twice, and now Walker is promoting it. That seems to say it was a good plan from the start. This is almost the same plan that sat in Coble's desk for years without even being looked at. The only difference is that it now stops at Highwoods instead of going on up to Durant, which isn't really that much of a difference since TTA had pretty much signaled that they were going to cut most of the N. Raleigh stops years ago when they were trying to whittle down costs.

Edited April 10, 2015 by Euphorius

[orulz]

Agreed that this is basically the same plan in many ways. Every time it has come up there have been subtle differences but the corridors (NCRR->CSX) and basic mode (rail) have been the same.

The difference this time is that they want it to be linked to the mainline railroads, which allows extensions to areas off the mainline such as Wake Forest, Zebulon, Clayton, Durham, Hillsborough, Apex, Selma, etc to reuse the same infrastructure.

[DPK]

You guys, we clearly need at least 3 more studies on this before deciding on another set of studies to study the previous studies on studying studies.  Studies.

 

I'll be old and retired with bionic limbs before rail ever gets deployed around here at this rate.

 

Also how can I be one of these "consultants" that keep cropping up.  I too can copy/paste and cite obvious and ridiculous things.

Edited April 12, 2015 by DPK

[ctl]

I agree, it's deja vu from the period that preceded light rail's 15 minutes of attention. But although the studies prior to 2005 might have identified the right answer in terms of rail, none of them could solve the funding problem. 

 

Will this rail plan happen? Eventually, sure. Trains that run 2 hr 30 min to Charlotte and 4 hours to DC are inevitable, too. Will I live to see any of those? I wouldn't bet on it. 

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

So, will this train...

http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/news-columns-blogs/article18435236.html

...be able to run in the new Union Station?