2035 Triangle Regional Transit Vision Plan

[nicholas]

23 hours ago, kermit said:

Yes, this. There is not practical reason why TTA cant run four commuter trains per hour between Raleigh and Durham (with extensions to Mebane/Burlington and Clayton/Selma) -- there is very little freight traffic on this portion of the NCRR and I would imagine NS would welcome an opportunity to pawn off its maintenance expenses on the section of track.  However, making this trunk commuter system work will require much better local transit in Durham and Raleigh (and ideally Hillsborough since any station there will be a bit peripheral). The current LRT plan does an OK (not great) job of this in Durham and Raleigh's revised bus plan might work if they don't cheap out on operations and design.  Unfortunately existing rail makes sending these commuter trains to Chapel Hill terribly impractical so the tragically designed LRT route to Durham is a necessary evil if Chapel Hill and Carrboro are going to have any useful connections to the remainder of the Triangle.  Unfortunately Chapel Hill's intransigence about development and density is likely to doom the western portion of the LRT to poor ridership. Honestly connecting CH with BRT between Franklin/Columbia and Duke Hospital LRT might make more sense than the current plan.

Thought I heard somewhere recently that CH is actually planning a couple BRT routes, might have been @Merthecat who mentioned that.  I think a direct BRT route from CH to Durham, coupled with a commuter rail from Durham to Raleigh as well as the light rail route detailed in my other posts on this thread, would be the best combination of cost, efficiency, and mass transit for the Triangle at this point.

[Merthecat]

Yes, Chapel Hill is planning an 8.2 mile BRT line that will run north and south, with a portion of it in downtown.  Here's the link from Go Forward:  http://goforwardnc.org/project/orange-brt/

[KJHburg]

Building and allowing higher density by the stations is crucial to any kind of success this light rail will or could have.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/orange-county/article219419675.html

[Jones_]

15 hours ago, KJHburg said:

Building and allowing higher density by the stations is crucial to any kind of success this light rail will or could have.

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/orange-county/article219419675.html

And vice versa. The City cannot grow and densify without higher capacity transportation options than asphalt. 

[ctl]

Agreed, the City can't. The outlying metro counties, well, that's a different question. 

[Merthecat]

GoTriangle has revised their DOLRT plans slightly based upon public and FTA feedback, and will be hosting three meetings to accept further comment, as well as accepting online comments.

The Herald-Sun has a good summary and update of the project:  https://www.heraldsun.com/news/local/article220971230.html

[kermit]

6 hours ago, Merthecat said:

GoTriangle has revised their DOLRT plans slightly based upon public and FTA feedback, and will be hosting three meetings to accept further comment, as well as accepting online comments.

The Herald-Sun has a good summary and update of the project:  https://www.heraldsun.com/news/local/article220971230.html

Reducing platform length to just two vehicles is a mistake (as seen in Charlotte). 

[Merthecat]

Durham approves a plan to build 437 apartments in downtown, 277 of which will be affordable.  The apartments will be located on two sites near the planned Dillard St. light rail station, one on the 300 block of E. Main St. and the other on the 500 block (both are county-owned).

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article221618515.html

Definitely a positive for Durham and the light rail.  Including more housing, particularly with affordable units, along the route will be critical to its success.

[Jones_]

2 hours ago, Merthecat said:

Durham approves a plan to build 437 apartments in downtown, 277 of which will be affordable.  The apartments will be located on two sites near the planned Dillard St. light rail station, one on the 300 block of E. Main St. and the other on the 500 block (both are county-owned).

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/article221618515.html

Definitely a positive for Durham and the light rail.  Including more housing, particularly with affordable units, along the route will be critical to its success.

They are actually affordable too...targeted to a maximum income of $38,000 (not sure if per household or capita....probably the lease holder's income). 

[kermit]

Some interesting estimates on incremental property tax revenues expected to be generated by the DOLRT. $1.4 to $1.9 billion addition is expected over 40 years from densification in station areas. 

https://gotriangle.org/news/how-guiding-growth-around-light-rail-stations-can-generate-14-billion-new-tax-revenue-thousands

[ctl]

Yes, the taxpayers' gift to people and companies that owned property along the route. And although property taxes will go up along with the valuations, it's likely that very little tax will ever be paid on capital gains. 

[kermit]

^ Yup, some property owners will certainly benefit more than others. However, the prediction remains that LRT will increase property tax revenues (and reduce the cost of providing municipal services to these parcels) above what would have been without the LRT investment -- it is likely to be a net benefit rather than cost to the public. Such gains should be included in any cost-benefit analysis of the line.

[ctl]

Reminds me of the games played in the 1950s and early 1960s when the Interstate routes were being mapped through rural areas. Please, run I-85 over my land and put an interchange there... and someday my heirs will be able to sell more of it for gas stations, restaurants, and hotels. Didn't always work out that way, but it often did. 

[Jones_]

If only property tax went towards interstate maintenance....

And from my joke comment now I wonder.....do any states do like an interstate property tax levy? Maybe then you could TIF their expansions and such....?

[KJHburg]

GoTriangle awarded $20 M grant for RUS Bus station downtown across from the Dillon and next to Union Station.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2018/12/06/gotriangle-receives-20m-to-build-downtown-raleigh.html?utm_source=Business+North+Carolina+Daily+Digest&utm_campaign=3a1139429b-EMAIL_CAMPAIGN_12_12_2018&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_7ae5defd0d-3a1139429b-122553233#new_tab

[DPK]

Looks like they may resort to tunneling the Durham-Orange light rail thru the ATC corridor:
https://www.wral.com/tunnel-could-be-solution-to-move-durham-orange-light-rail-project-forward/18065756/

I have to say that I'm impressed at how dedicated everyone is to this project.  They are going as far as throwing it underground in this one area to keep things moving.  Hope it keeps up with the momentum as we head toward a 2020 groundbreaking with this.

#fingerscrossed

Edited December 15, 2018 by DPK

[ctl]

Tunneling ain't cheap, and I wonder how the incremental cost will be financed. 

[nicholas]

Again, I contend that extending the route all the way to Chapel Hill is unwise at this time.  Who from CH will actually use it?  Certainly not the wealthy residents of very suburban southern CH, nor the relatively few residents in downtown who will be unreasonably far away from the nearest stations ( for reference, the last proposed stop near the UNC Hospital will be a mile from Franklin St).  The UNC students who live on campus won't need it to get around other than possibly a handful of job opportunities and/or parties in Durham.  "We're a progressive town, we need a light rail" isn't a good reason to build a light rail in your town.

[DanRNC]

12 hours ago, nicholas said:

Again, I contend that extending the route all the way to Chapel Hill is unwise at this time.  Who from CH will actually use it?  Certainly not the wealthy residents of very suburban southern CH, nor the relatively few residents in downtown who will be unreasonably far away from the nearest stations ( for reference, the last proposed stop near the UNC Hospital will be a mile from Franklin St).  The UNC students who live on campus won't need it to get around other than possibly a handful of job opportunities and/or parties in Durham.  "We're a progressive town, we need a light rail" isn't a good reason to build a light rail in your town.

Most Chapel Hill citizens don't work in Chapel Hill but commute to Durham/RTP everyday. 15-501 is a gong show and I-40 during rush hour is untravelable. 

[ctl]

I am generally supportive of mass transit, but I am apprehensive that the CH-Durham project will lay an egg. An expensive egg. Jacking up its cost to provide a tunnel just increases my apprehension.

Edited December 16, 2018 by ctl

[DanRNC]

4 hours ago, ctl said:

I am generally supportive of mass transit, but I am apprehensive that the CH-Durham project will lay an egg. An expensive egg. Jacking up its cost to provide a tunnel just increases my apprehension.

Well I don't think you have any reason to worry as both the CH-Durham and Raleigh plans will most likely never materialize. Maybe some more sh-tty bus service that nobody will use, but that's about it. 

[orulz]

This will probably be a short cut-and-cover tunnel built without maintenance of traffic during construction, so it will be cheap as tunnels go. I do have the same apprehensions, though. The scope keeps increasing to make everybody happy. It does make for a better project, but it also makes a vastly more expensive project. Will there be further cost overruns during construction? Will Durham have any money left over for the NCRR rail line to Raleigh? Will it still be worth it at the end of the day, compared with what could have been achieved with regional, BRT, and service increases? 

The NCRR really needs some work through downtown Durham. Every grade separation (Gregson, Chapel Hill, and Roxboro) has substandard clearance of 12' or less, there are some extremely busy grade crossings for cars at Duke and Mangum, and Blackwell, the one where all the fuss is coming from - is the most important pedestrian linkage across the tracks. I am very concerned that whatever solution they come up with for this tunnel will make it nigh impossible to ever fix the NCRR by grade-separating it short of a billion dollar bored tunnel.

I would love to see a split grade separation where the NCRR is elevated somewhat to cross over the roads from just east of Buchanan to just west of Fayetteville, and the roads are lowered to go under it. For the critical area from Chapel Hill to Roxboro, put retail space under the viaduct, like this spot in Chicago under the Wacker Drive viaduct. Expensive? Yes. But so are tunnels, and this fixes a multitude of other problems in DT Durham as well, rather than blocks them from being fixed forever.  Not sure what complications this might cause.

[ctl]

I heard that the powers-at-be in Durham had ruled out any elevation of NCRR that might create a "great wall" or any version thereof. 

[orulz]

An elevated structure can be a blight or a  massive community benefit. The devil is of course in the details. If the only possibility is a retained fill embankment then I agree - forget it. But if the entire half mile stretch from Chapel Hill to Roxboro were a viaduct - not unlike the one now proposed for Erwin Road in front of Duke Hospital, that leaves the space underneath to do something cool with.

Of course there is no guarantee that the railroad would play ball and let any retail structures get built under a viaduct, but in the worst case it could just be left open and used for parking, which is better than what is there now because it is at least permeable without trespassing on RR property. Or maybe make it parking at first with the plan to negotiate lease payments to put structures down there in the future. Or maybe use it for food trucks. Or a skate park. Or put in a climbing wall. I don't know, be creative.

By categorically excluding elevated options, they are selling their future short IMO.

The track work currently underway for Gateway Station in Charlotte is similar in scope to what I am suggesting (although they have independent bridges for the streets rather than one long bridge) and is priced at $90 million - which isn't cheap, but in the context of this project, and compared with building a light rail tunnel, sounds reasonable.

[orulz]

This is the sort of aesthetic that I would envision in such a scenario. You would be hard pressed to find anyone who would consider this a blight.

https://goo.gl/q2KXGC

Another option for what to do with part of the space would be to put the GoDurham transfer center under the viaduct and sell the land that the current station is on for redevelopment. Of course the Freelon designed headhouse at Pettigrew and Chapel Hill is cool  and could be kept and repurposed. Maybe that could retain its role as the intercity bus terminal.