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2035 Triangle Regional Transit Vision Plan


ChiefJoJo

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Twice as many buses on the road by 2013, with trains rolling by 2019 - all with no federal help? That timeline actually sounds pretty good to me, but then again I have yet to see a transit plan anywhere that manages to stay on schedule. Hopefully, though, at least by the middle of next decade, we'll actually have a federal partner for funding transit infrastructure, so that extra funding might make up for any slips in the schedule.

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Twice as many buses on the road by 2013, with trains rolling by 2019 - all with no federal help? That timeline actually sounds pretty good to me, but then again I have yet to see a transit plan anywhere that manages to stay on schedule. Hopefully, though, at least by the middle of next decade, we'll actually have a federal partner for funding transit infrastructure, so that extra funding might make up for any slips in the schedule.

Do you happen to know if any new train system has attepted to start withOUT federal help? It would be interesting to know. Thank you!

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There was a Column in today's N&O from a John Locke representative. It's basically the same argument we've been hearing from them all along. I posted a couple of comments; Anyone else care to take a stab at it?

Even as far as Locke pieces go, this one really bad. I don't have an N&O account so can't respond there (too lazy at midnight to open one), but you and teh apex guy did a good job of ripping him apart. Art Pope finds it worth his money to pay this guy :dontknow: Cherry picking factoids and completely avoiding the entire premise(s) for mass transit is a typical ideolog for you.

See Michael Sanera's Wikipedia entry.

Edited by Jones133
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The Intermodal Bill, which would enable the Triangle to levy a sales tax for transit (with county support and pending a positive referendum result), was introduced today. FYI.

In addition to House Bill 148, the identical bill was filed in the Senate as Senate Bill 151.

The list of sponsors will not be final until about noon Thursday as members have until then to sign on, but as of 6 pm Wednesday there were 22 (of 120) House sponsors and 18 (of 50) Senate sponsors. The Senate sponsors include all four co-chairs of the Finance Committee, which handles tax legislation, and six of the seven Triangle area Senators.

Bruce Siceloff has a blog post at the N&O on the bills which you can add comments to.

Edited by staffer
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Were the JLF all run over by a train at some point? The vitriol they reserve for mass transit and for trains in particular is stunning.

Their rigid ideology prevents them from seeing the government as potentially being an active partner with the private sector in shaping how cities develop. All of the bizarro libertarian arguments against rail as a means towards a sustainable future are influenced by this narrow ideology, whether they have any basis in fact or not (mostly not).

I call it bizarro libertarian, because IMO, enabling and encouraging policies that encourage suburban sprawl are not fiscally conservative, and that is typically what they advocate. It's more pragmatic to look at rail transit investment as the government strategically leveraging it's tax dollars & infrastructure towards creating a market for sustainable private sector investment that would not otherwise occur. Put another way, transit is not a liberal cause:

Tom Darden, a developer of urban and close-in suburban properties, said Wednesday, "I'm a Republican and have been my whole life. I consider myself a very conservative person. But it never made sense to me why we would tax ordinary people in order to subsidize this form of development, sprawl." Darden told the story of a road-paving project approved by North Carolina when he served on the state's transportation board. A dirt road that handled just five trips per day was paved at taxpayer expense, with money that could have gone toward mass transit benefiting millions of people.

"Those were driveways, in my view, not roads," Darden said.

BTW, in reference to the Intermodal Bill, if you want a better mass transit system, I suggest following it's progress and either lobbying at the legislature or letting your representative know that you support it.

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JoJo: I don't understand the whole idea of following what was has been the status quo pro-sprawl stance for a long time here in North Carolina. The half cent sales tax increase seems like a great idea to me. If I'm not mistaken, don't we have the 2nd most state owned roads in the USA? That's insane. The arguments against rail usually only give part of the story. They talk of the unfortunate subsidies that are needed but nearly 100% of the time neglect to also admit that their anti-rail stance encourages sprawled communities that cost a lot in tax money for city services, amongst other expenses. Since you brought up the subject, I'm a big time libertarian, but I also support mass transit. I wish it could get here sooner. There certainly are areas that we could trim the fat from in the budgets to get rail here sooner, but that's likely to get this discussion way off track. Let's save the automatic assumptions about political leanings, as it is not really worth while discussing here. Plus, when you sit down and talk to people rationally, assumptions are often proved wrong. My 2 cents.

Edited by DB78
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Interestingly, there is now thought of moving High Speed Rail to the NS line from where the NS and CSX cross near Fairview down to what would be the downtown HSR passenger station.

VA/NC Line to Raleigh (70 miles)

The initial railroad horizontal and vertical designs are complete in this section. Preliminary highway designs proceeded from north to south, and were essentially complete in mid-2008. However, the study team began looking at an alternate rail entry into downtown Raleigh in mid-2008, using the Norfolk Southern corridor west of Capital Boulevard. Additional rail and roadway designs are required in this section, with completion expected in early 2009.

Last updated December 2008.

^ This bears repeating as the stimulus bill that passed Congress & will be signed into law tomorrow has $8B in federal money for high speed rail (HSR) projects (added at the 11th hour), and there are only a handful of likely eligible recipients available in the nation, including SEHSR in NC & VA. So with all of the environmental and preliminary engineering work that has taken place up to now, it seems that SEHSR is very well positioned received a potential jump start, with the likely initial investment being from DTR north to Petersburg VA. I post this in the transit thread (& not the NC HSR topic) because there could be synergies between SEHSR and TTA's potential LRT system in terms of mutually beneficial planning and engineering for both facilities in the NCRR and CSX corridors. Also, any HSR kick-start could mean an acceleration in the potential for the multimodal center in DTR. :good:

Some FYIs:

  • There's a PBS program online that focuses on the stimulus, transit and transportation priorities, and its focus is on NC (primarily Charlotte and the Triangle). It will air on UNCED (TWC 203) Thursday @ 4:30pm & Friday @ 10pm. It lasts 30 min & is very much worth a look.
  • The New Durham Intermodal Center opens Feb 23rd.
  • Also, given that the Triangle is perhaps looking at building a ~56 mile LRT line from UNC Med to North Raleigh, I was curious to find out which light rail/tram lines are among the world's longest & I think I found the winner. The Belgian Coast Tram line is said to be the world's longest with 70 stations operated over 68km (42 miles). It's also one of the few remaining interurban tramways to remain in service since it's inception in 1885.

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Were the JLF all run over by a train at some point? The vitriol they reserve for mass transit and for trains in particular is stunning.

Its because they see as the Europeanization of the U.S. They always throw up that argument. I would tell them that there are worse places in the world to emulate. I think it shows how unsophisticated there arguments are considering Switzerland, who is just as capitalistic as we are, maintains one of the best mass transit systems in the world.

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CAMPO approved a new 2035 long range plan last night that includes the transit recommendations depicted below.

CAMPO.jpg

In addition, there remains a draft near term Wake County Transit Action Plan, a 10-year subset of the long range plan adopted last night. It would purchase and operate 100 new buses throughout the county and implement LRT from NW Cary to Spring Forest Rd in NE Raleigh by 2019.

There is a public hearing (to receive public comments) on this action plan to be held at the Raleigh Municipal Building, Council Chambers,

222 Hargett St , at 6:30pm. Following, there will be a meeting of the Capital Area Friends of Transit where members and interested citizens can hear more about the intermodal bill introduced in the General Assembly. Please come and express your views.

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CAMPO unveiled some of its transit plan. The plan calls for mass widening of roads AND lots of mass transit. I find the starting of Commuter trains between Wake Forest and DTR by 2025 interesting. Here are the highlights:

By 2025:

- Operate electric-powered light rail from Triangle Town Center in North Raleigh through downtown Raleigh and Cary to Research Triangle Park, where it would join a light rail line from Chapel Hill and Durham.

- Start rush-hour commuter trains from downtown Raleigh to Wake Forest and to Selma.

- Widen I-40 from the Beltline east to N.C. 42.

- Widen I-440 from U.S. 1/64 to Wade Avenue.

- Widen U.S. 64 from Wendell to Nash County.

By 2035:

- Add HOT (high-occupancy / toll) lanes to I-40 from RTP to Wade Avenue, for carpools and buses, and for solo drivers willing to pay a toll.

- Widen U.S. 401 south from U.S. 70 to Fuquay-Varina.

- Widen I-40 south from N.C. 42.

- Widen N.C. 50 north from the 540 Loop to Creedmoor.

- Widen U.S. 1 north from the 540 Loop, and make part of it an eight-lane freeway.

http://www.newsobserver.com/167/story/1411750.html

Edit: Sorry Jojo, must have been posting at the same time....

Edited by Gard
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That 2035 line to Apex looks interesting, but I would say in this case contrary to the NCRR, following an existing railroad does not yield the ideal alignment. Whereas the NCRR has almost unlimited potential for TOD, The CSX line to Apex mostly goes through already developed low density residential areas. In spite of the disadvantages of using freeways for transit corridors, I have to wonder if US 1 might not be a better choice; Crossroads and the Waverly Place vicinity could definitely use some TOD. Maybe they could incorporate some extra ROW for light rail when they widen 440 and 1/64 from 40 to Wade. The line could access downtown Apex by way of the defunct Durham & Southern railroad.

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This is somewhat of a general growth topic, but at a regional growth summit of community and business leaders this week, most participants favored mass transit as their top regional priority. See the video summary here. Following the Emerging Issues Forum on infrastructure a few weeks ago, there seems to be a lot of momentum towards moving this issue forward.

N&O coverage

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CAMPO approved a new 2035 long range plan last night that includes the transit recommendations depicted below.

CAMPO.jpg

What I mainly dislike about this version is the lack of rail service to RDU. Living in DC, I can tell you that having a metrostop at DCA is by far one of the biggest advantages of using DCA. I think any railservice without a RDU stop would be a big disappointment.

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What I mainly dislike about this version is the lack of rail service to RDU. Living in DC, I can tell you that having a metrostop at DCA is by far one of the biggest advantages of using DCA. I think any railservice without a RDU stop would be a big disappointment.

We've discussed this before on here, but, in short, the main reasons are (1) expense, of course (no rail line already going to/near RDU) but also (2) not only no support from RDU Airport AUthority, but downright hostility as well...the airport authority is addicted to the parking money they get, so they aren't about to take any actions that would (a) cost lots of money and (b) also have the effect of reducing their revenues. It is simply not in their economic interests....and, statutorily, the Airport Authority has the final say about what happens on airport property.

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(2) not only no support from RDU Airport AUthority, but downright hostility as well...

This is more myth than fact. The airport would probably welcome a transit line, and it would not decrease their revenues significantly, as the vast majority of their revenue comes from fees other than parking, and quite a bit of the parking revenues go towards operating the park-and-ride system.

However, the fact is that the airport authority would probably be asked to shoulder at least some of the cost of a transit line to the terminals. With the massive half-billion dollar Terminal 2 project underway, and the future Terminal 1 project which will also be massive, their financial resources (absent some other source of revenue) are pretty much tapped out for years to come.

Even so, I'd like to see some sort of plan for how it will be incorporated in the future.

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I'd like to add that the airport authority board is also nominated by the cities of Durham and Raleigh, along with the counties of Wake and Durham. That being said, if these governments are he**bent on getting a line to RDU, then can do it by simply tossing out the resistance on the board and replacing them with those who support it. There isn't anything stopping them from doing that. They ultimately have to answer to the governments who put them there. Also, its entirely possible that these four governments allocate cash for the airport authority for the project, be it in grants, transfers from their general funds or inter-government loans.

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Does a line to the airport really generate a lot of revenue or is it more about image for visitors. LGA never found it worthwhile to tunnel there but buses run every ten minutes. I took MARTA from ATL, which was convenient but I can't say I remember many people on the train even with Hartsfield's mega busy status, but I have no idea what the numbers actually are.

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Does a line to the airport really generate a lot of revenue or is it more about image for visitors. LGA never found it worthwhile to tunnel there but buses run every ten minutes. I took MARTA from ATL, which was convenient but I can't say I remember many people on the train even with Hartsfield's mega busy status, but I have no idea what the numbers actually are.

The rail line would only generate funds for the transit authority, directly. However, it will indirectly generate funds for RDU by giving riders a direct option to the airport. And not just local but visiting riders. Mass transit is a high factor people look at when traveling. If you ask anyone who comes to DC, they will tell you that the metro stop at DC is one of the best features of the airport. And WMAA doesn't have anything to do with it. But they get indirect revenue from it by increase passengers and as a marketing tool. Get off your plane and into the district in under 15 minutes, even during rush hour traffic!

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How does an airport like RDU make money off people arriving or departing on a train? If the claim is this will increase passenger load on the airlines which in turn will increase landing/take off fees, I am not so sure that I would believe that. If people are going to make the decision to fly to that location, I am not sure that train access would make much of a difference.

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Most airports have far more EMPLOYEES than air travelers taking the train to the airport. The Washington Metro is one of the few exceptions to this trend, not the rule.

Most people go to the airport 2-6 times per year. Most people go to work 251 days each year. RDU boarded about 9730 passengers per day in January, on average. RDU is not O'Hare. In fact, it's not even CLT.

40,000 people work in downtown Raleigh every weekeday. 30,000 people work or study at NCSU every weekday during the school calendar year. They are both right on the STAC plan rail line.

For most Triangle residents who do not work in downtown Raleigh or some other parking constrained (or non-free parking) destination, the airport is the only place in the region they ever pay to park. This is the primary reason why they think about taking transit to the airport. The secondary reason is that many (but not all) people have used transit from an airport in a major US city.

RDU will NEVER generate the ridership of a downtown Raleigh station or a NCSU station. Unfortunately, the importance of transit to the airport as a primary issue is an article of faith in the Triangle. So we must improve transit to the airport. Let's hope we do it in a way that doesn't blow too much money that could have been spent in places where transit pays far greater dividends.

Edited by transitman
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