Transit Agencies in South Carolina

[teshadoh]

I think it also helps to have a dedicated tax used for financing your transit system. Mecklenburg County is the only county in NC & SC that has an additional sales tax to fund it's transit system. When residents are willing to tax themselves to fund transit - that tells the Feds that the residents are serious about transit. That might be tough for Greenville County, I'm not sure the county would be able to pass a permanent special sales tax to fund only a transit system.

[monsoon]

Actually there is a dedicated transit tax in Wake and Durham counties as well. It's a car rental tax and the proceeds are delivered to the TTA.

[GvilleSC]

Its true that GTA doesn't exist, but the routes and schedules that Greenlink provides are virtually identical to what GTA provided. Its still a valid comparison.

Greenlink has existed for almost two months. Maybe y'all should tell me, and the leaders of the bus system what they should have accomplished by now. Maybe 5 million riders? expanded routes that go from TR to Fountain Inn and Greer?

Like I said, plans for improvement are there, it's a matter of funding and implementing them, NEITHER of which can be done in two months. Maybe this should be discussed in a year when we can actually have a decent timetable to measure changes and perhaps some hard numbers for the new system.

[Spartan]

I think Richland has a sales tax to pay to transit, and know Charleston County has one.

monsoon- I think that a comparison to Mecklenburg is not really fair to Greenville. The comparison to Wake County is more applicable, since Raleigh is developing in a similar way and in a multi-nodal metro like Greenville. Raleigh has no real transit to speak of either. North Carolina State has its system that works fairly well, and I presume UNC/Chapel Hill does as well... these are comparable to Clemson, which has a well functioning transit system, despite the fact that the city does not.

Greenlink has existed for almost two months. Maybe y'all should tell me, and the leaders of the bus system what they should have accomplished by now. Maybe 5 million riders? expanded routes that go from TR to Fountain Inn and Greer?

Like I said, plans for improvement are there, it's a matter of funding and implementing them, NEITHER of which can be done in two months. Maybe this should be discussed in a year when we can actually have a decent timetable to measure changes and perhaps some hard numbers for the new system.

I think you're missing the point, and there's no need to get defensive. Greenlink has technically existed for two months, but its running the same service that GTA did, so its just picking up from where GTA left off. That means that Greenlink is still effectively suffering from GTA's lack of funding I stated from the beginning of this thread that Greenville has done well to get its system back to where it is, given the political environment there. Greenlink's vision seems to be pretty solid from what I understand, but I have yet to see an actual plan/document from them or anyone else that explains what they want to do... other than some anecdotal discussion with GPATS about BRT. Now, having said that, since the "new system" has only been around for a couple of months, I think its too soon to expect a plan out of them. I agree that its definitely worth waiting to see what comes up with Greenlink's plans.

It may, however, be worth discussing what we'd like to see come out of Greenlink in terms of service area/times/modes improvements.

[monsoon]

I.....Raleigh has no real transit to speak of either. .....

Huh??! Raleigh has Capital Area Transit which had 4M riders within the city in 2006. If you add in the NCSU system and the TTA and you have a mass transit system that is carrying 7-8M year.

The TTA also connects to Chapel Hill Transit and the Durham Area Transit Authority which between the two of them have another 11M yearly riders. If you combine it all you are talking about a system that is comparable in ridership to CATS in Charlotte.

While it might not be valid to compare Greenville to Mecklenburg I think Greenville/Durham is a very valid comparison.

Durham Area Transit Authority (2006)

Bus Ridership - 4,530,367

Chapel Hill Transit (2006)

Bus Ridership - 5,951,609

[teshadoh]

I think Richland has a sales tax to pay to transit, and know Charleston County has one.

It's not dedicated to a specific transit system - SC allows local option taxes in counties for transportation, education or other uses. Charleston, Beaufort & Dorchester counties have passed local option taxes for transportation which may include some funds to transit - but none exclusively for a transit authority.

[Spartan]

Huh??! Raleigh has Capital Area Transit which had 4M riders within the city in 2006. If you add in the NCSU system and the TTA and you have a mass transit system that is carrying 7-8M year.

The TTA also connects to Chapel Hill Transit and the Durham Area Transit Authority which between the two of them have another 11M yearly riders. If you combine it all you are talking about a system that is comparable in ridership to CATS in Charlotte.

While it might not be valid to compare Greenville to Mecklenburg I think Greenville/Durham is a very valid comparison.

Durham Area Transit Authority (2006)

Bus Ridership - 4,530,367

Chapel Hill Transit (2006)

Bus Ridership - 5,951,609

I didn't say that they had no transit system, I said its not a real transit system. Perhaps I should have said its not an effective transit system, which would have been more accurate. I went to Raleigh on business, and I had planned to use the bus from my hotel. However, it did not permit me to to get to my destination at a reasonable time. Either way, it doesn't change the fact that if you actually live there, its probably not very useful, just like every other city in the Carolinas except perhaps Charlotte.

It's not dedicated to a specific transit system - SC allows local option taxes in counties for transportation, education or other uses. Charleston, Beaufort & Dorchester counties have passed local option taxes for transportation which may include some funds to transit - but none exclusively for a transit authority.

Ah, thats probably what I'm thinking of then. Charleston does put some towards transit because as I recall that was the only way they could get it funded.

[monsoon]

.... Either way, it doesn't change the fact that if you actually live there, its probably not very useful, just like every other city in the Carolinas except perhaps Charlotte......

I disagree, the Chapel Hill Transit system (operated by the town not the school) is one of the most effective and usable bus systems in the country. It basically serves Chapel Hill, Caroboro, and connects to the TTA, we are talking about an area with maybe 100K people, and they move more than 7M people/year on it.

[GvilleSC]

In Greenlink's monthly report, they have their current initiatives for improvements listed out. The current projects for improvements are as follows:

1. Transit Center renovations - underway

2. Bus improvements - underway

3. Route Signage - underway

4. Passenger Shelters - design underway

5. Maintenance Facility improvements - quotes received

6. Proposed route/service expansion - received proposals from McDonald Transit, on hold for funding.

All of these seem like steps in the right direction to me. They aren't going to increase numbers tomorrow, but yes they will make riding more attractive for customers in the coming months/years as services are expanded. It says that the Shelters are being finalized (design-wise) right now and will go before the DPC in July.

The Transit Center's improvements are extremely important to the system (people need to feel safe), as well as the route signage and shelters.

[Greenville]

I am probably going to get blasted for this, but it is a worthy point so I will make it anyway: it gets really old to read about North Carolina cities/activities/accomplishments in a South Carolina thread. I know several of you guys live in the Charlotte metro area or are very familiar with it, and that's great. But it seems like most threads turn into how inferior South Carolina is and how much better North Carolina is (either directly stated or just implied). In a South Carolina forum, does that really accomplish anything?

I'm not trying to be a jerk, so please don't get defensive. I realize that it is probably not something being done intentionally, but it is very noticeable to me. I'm sure I am not the only one.

[waccamatt]

Does Charleston have tourist oriented bus lines - such as fake trolleys? That should be a no-brainer to anyone visiting the peninsula if a tourist loop exists. I don't recall seeing one the last time I was in Charleston, but we were also riding our bikes when we were there.

Regarding Columbia - can I assume there are college students taking the bus to the malls for shopping? Otherwise, that is a pretty healthy number just for 2006.

I doubt many college students are taking the bus to malls. USC, Allen University and Benedict College are all close to the Five Points district so they wouldn't have an over-riding need to get out to the suburbs

[gman430]

Several forum members have requested this so I thought i'd provide it: http://www.ridegreenlink.com/LinkClick.asp...=36&mid=380

Also, I did some researching and found this:

City of Greenville Bus Rapid Transit Development

$600,000 requested

$150,000 match available

Funds are requested to develop an integrated Sustainable Transit Enterprise Plan (STEP) for the City of Greenville, focusing on a 50-square-mile area in the center of Greenville County. STEP will provide a long-term vision for an integrated transit system that has potential to curtail urban sprawl by supporting transit oriented development, while also providing a short-term business plan for organizing and managing better quality transit services.

Link: http://inglis.house.gov/issues.asp?content...opriations_fy08

[Spartan]

GvilleSC and citylife: Good to know about Greenlink's plans guys, thanks for the updates and please keep us posted!

----

One of the major barriers to transit in SC is that many of our cities lack a strong central business district that people gravitate to for business. Because of our state's tendency of attracting industrial operations, the jobs tend to be created in the suburban areas along interstates. It would be interesting if someone thread and we all posted job announcements that are specific to the CBD's of our cities.

Myrtle Beach has such a high volume of tourists in such a linear area that it could likely (and easily) support a solid rail transit system that is very successful. Just think what could happen if you could go to the clubs downtown and take the train back to your N. Mytle Beach hotel... the possiblities here are endless...

I was thinking about this thread over the weekend as it applies to Spartanburg. Looking at downtown, despite its growth an resurgence over the past few years, will not be more than a hub for the local bus system for the foreseeable future. BMW, Milliken, Cryovac and many of our major employers in the county are located on I-85 or in more suburban areas of town (eg: Kohler, Mary Black Hospital). The exception is Spartanburg Regional Medical Center, which are located closer to downtown but still not in downtown, and the County Government, which is in downtown (albeit not in the center).

Its going to be hard to create effective transit when people's destinations are so decentralized.

I disagree, the Chapel Hill Transit system (operated by the town not the school) is one of the most effective and usable bus systems in the country. It basically serves Chapel Hill, Caroboro, and connects to the TTA, we are talking about an area with maybe 100K people, and they move more than 7M people/year on it.

Thats cool. You can say the same thing about Clemson's CATbus which services Clemson, Central, Pendleton, and now Seneca. We aren't sure what its ridership is here on UP, but it is an effective transit system. The impact of transit systems that primarily serve universities like UNC and Clemson are certainly relevant, but they are still different from 'regular' city transit systems. The largest cities in South Carolina cannot duplicate what these college towns have.

In a South Carolina forum, does that really accomplish anything?

Thats a valid point. Charlotte is simply the closest transit success story, so its bound to come up. Perhaps we do get a little too focused on NC stuff here in the SC forum from time to time. I think that if its in context it shouldn't be an issue, but I agree if we get on a complete NC tangent that isn't related to the SC stuff at all, then it should stop.

[monsoon]

.....

Thats cool. You can say the same thing about Clemson's CATbus which services Clemson, Central, Pendleton, and now Seneca. We aren't sure what its ridership is here on UP, but it is an effective transit system. The impact of transit systems that primarily serve universities like UNC and Clemson are certainly relevant, but they are still different from 'regular' city transit systems. The largest cities in South Carolina cannot duplicate what these college towns have....

These are not similar systems. Chapel Hill has 60,000 residents and Carrboro has another 17,000. This is a compact dense walkable town with a population density of 2600 people/sq mile (greater than Charlotte) The bus system is operated by the city, not the school, and serves much much more than UNC students. It carries over 6,000,000 riders/year. It doesn't change it's schedule when UNC is not in session.

[GvilleSC]

Clemson University doesn't operate CAT. It contributes to its finances (as does Anderson County, Pickens County, Oconee County, the Cities of Clemson, Pendleton, Seneca, and Central) but doesn't operate the system. I'm not sure of the density of the Clemson-Seneca area, but I'd say it's less than that of Chapel Hill area. So, it would seem that Chapel Hill and environ is set up for transit.

[Spartan]

Well, good for Chapel Hill. Now, moving back on topic:

An article in the Herald-Journal today informs us that ridership of SPARTA has remained the same, even in spite of the rising gas prices. This goes to show what I said in my last post- that the system is not very effective at getting people to JOBS. Its so ineffective that people are continuing to pay for gas and cont considering transit as an option. There are virtually NO choice riders in Spartanburg. The City Council is struggling to figure out how to pay for diesel (which is at about $4.50/gal.) which creates a $1 million funding gap this year.

The City is considering the following to address this situation:

[*]Reducing weekday or Saturday service hours

[*]Eliminating specific routes

[*]Operate on an appointment-type service basis or operate on a

[monsoon]

^A number of places do this. (i.e. Myrtle Beach) The system is so poorly run the people won't use it because they can't depend on it, so the response is to cut it back even more.

[teshadoh]

But spartan - they, along with other transit agencies may be prioritizing what their target audience is. Many of the transit agencies, the old Pee Dee regional transit agency comes to mind, have long operated to provide transit services primarily to those who do not drive - the poor. When York County was once served by the limited bus program, isolated poor rural areas and the town center of Rock Hill was linked to Cherry Road. That was the mindset of a lot of transit agencies, to serve as a social program.

Now - I think a lot of transit agencies have already (MARTA in Atlanta cut a big chunk of the so-called house maid bus routes in the 90's) cut low-ridership routes whose sole purpose was to assist those that did not drive. The priority now is to serve the commuter, which is unfortunate for the poor because that means cutting bus service to those that need it the most. But I think it will likely mean more park & ride express bus routes for all the big highway corridors.

[GvilleSC]

That's a shame about SPARTA's options.

Does anyone know why Greenville's bus station is so large? Is all of the McBee Ave level parking due to its function as the Greyhound stop? I rarely see many cars parked in the covered area used by buses. The top is obviously a City-managed lot, but its function has nothing to do with the operations that take place below. Something more along the lines of SPARTA's station would seem like a better use of space in Greenville's urban core IF the parking isn't needed to accompany the bus station.

[gman430]

Anderson is expanding their bus route: http://www.independentmail.com/news/2008/j...ded-anderson-c/

[Spartan]

Does anyone know why Greenville's bus station is so large? Is all of the McBee Ave level parking due to its function as the Greyhound stop?

This is purely conjecture on my part, but it could be that they were planning for future growth (ironically). One idea that I think would be good for Greenville is to rebuild in the same location with the same concept but to include the support system to hold a 20 storey tower above and some retail facing Washington. Otherwise, where would you more the transit center that is even half as convenient as where it is today? Its important to factor as much convenience into transit as you can...

[GvilleSC]

That location is definitely the most convenient considering that it's one block off of Main, in the middle of the City Center between the North End and the West End with an ease of access to Heritage Green. I don't have a problem with the location as long as it is could be better utilized with, like you said, a tower or some sort of mixed-use component. Perhaps the Woolworth redevelopment will be successful and show the true value of this property to the City and developers...

[GvilleSC]

In The Greenville News' article recently about Greenville bucking the high carbon emission trend of the South, Mayor White had a few comments that apply here:

Greenville Mayor Knox White said the region

[gman430]

High fuel costs have their good and bad sides regarding mass transit. Clemson Area Transit looking to cut service and routes: http://www.independentmail.com/news/2008/j...ts-money-route/

[Spartan]

Wow. Thats definitely a major drawback in a fare-free transit system... you can't raise the fare-box rates.