Dillard's leaving Hickory Hollow Mall

[Nathan_in_DC]

For some reason I can't get the comments to come up... Can someone copy and paste a few of them here?

[timmay143]

For some reason I can't get the comments to come up... Can someone copy and paste a few of them here?

I'll try.

[timmay143]

Fieldmarshaldj:

Would you agree that the crime problem along the Murfreesboro Road corridor is not limited to Antioch? For example, the Silverado's area is technically in Donelson (yes, Donelson goes south of I-40). Also, there are still quite nice parts of Antioch, but my friends who live there refer to it as the Priest Lake area instead. I am not sure of the actual boundaries of Antioch, but it seems to me that that part of town gets painted with quite a broad brush.

Either way, the Hickory Hollow mall area specifically is clearly ready for a reboot, although big-box retail is not going to be the answer to that. But I think that the big-box retail implosion is going to hit other areas too. My sense is that Rivergate will be next.

Funny you say this. There was an article on the blurring of neighborhood boundaries in Nashville. I think it was the TN as well.

Also, I agree with your last statement. While the big boxes are nice something like 100 Oaks needs to happen to see a rebirth in the area. Something that will keep it active daily. The retail will come back.

[timmay143]

Funny you say this. There was an article on the blurring of neighborhood boundaries in Nashville. I think it was the TN as well.

Here is the article.

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20121117/NEWS01/311170022/Around-Nashville-er-Brentwood-neighborhoods-an-identity-crisis?odyssey=tab%7Ctopnews%7Ctext%7CFRONTPAGE

[timmay143]

I'll try.

Here are some of the comments. I'll try to leave out the political ones if I can.

This might be somewhat true and maybe what fieldmarshaldj is speaking about.

You can thank all the closings in the area, to former Mayor Bill Purcell, and current Mayor Carl Dean. Mayor Purcell moved section 8 housing out there years ago, when the kids grew up, they ended up causing all the trouble for the area. That is why the area became to be known as Hickory Hood. If they would have things alone out there, the mall would still be open, and all the businesses would still be there. The outlaw element took over and Metro did nothing to stop it. So thanks alot Bill Purcell and Carl Dean.

A reply to the above comment:

If anyone doubts there is some truth to this, drive 5 - 10 minutes South on I-24 to Smyrna or East on OHB/Hobson Pike to Mt. Juliet. Both have really nice shopping/dining areas that have been growing over the past several years while Hickory Hollow has been decaying.

Oh, here's a good one. So accurate IMO . Lovely grammar BTW.

Ain't nobody that can fix Nashville. Get the hell out of that rat's hole while you still can.

[timmay143]

I give up. I'll try to fix later.

Ok, finally got it.

Had to break this up into two post as the forum said I'd used the allotment of quoted blocks in that post. (And of course it merges the two, but I can't save this edit afterwards! I'll wait a sec for it to allow me to post two post without combining. Sheesh.)

Not sure about this one either (towards Bredesen). I don't want this to get off on the topic of racism either if possible but here it is.

I bolted Hispanioch in 2006....was there for 10 years...watched the illegal invasion with a front row seat. Let's give credit to the person who invited it as mayor and governor....Phil Bredesen.

LOL, this is the same rat hole guy.

I'm not surprised. Much of Nashville is in decay or will be soon. Of course, the "protected" areas such as Belle Meade, Green Hills, and Bellevue will not be affected...yet. We moved to Gilbert, AZ a dozen years ago. The place makes Brentwood look like a doghouse. We are sooooo glad we moved here.

Another accurate one and a reply to the one above. Nothing is left in Nashville folks. Nothing to see here. Move along you looky-loos.

Left for Dallas in July of 2010 with no regrets... there's just nothing in Nashville anymore. I lived in Antioch from '95 to '98 and it's NOTHING like it was then, when I felt safe out there...

[Nathan_in_DC]

Because Antioch is such a great bellwether for the rest of Nashville.

Of course, Dallas doesn't have any rough neighborhoods that have seen decline, nope, not at all. And Gilbert, Arizona is SO the place to be now! I hear that they're opening a new Country Kitchen Buffet off the interstate exit, and that you can experience first hand the suburban sprawl every time you step out your door!

[jdavidf]

"You can thank all the closings in the area, to former Mayor Bill Purcell, and current Mayor Carl Dean. Mayor Purcell moved section 8 housing out there years ago, when the kids grew up, they ended up causing all the trouble for the area. That is why the area became to be known as Hickory Hood. If they would have things alone out there, the mall would still be open, and all the businesses would still be there. The outlaw element took over and Metro did nothing to stop it. So thanks alot Bill Purcell and Carl Dean."

Of course, if the commenter can't spell the name of the current mayor, then perhaps he or she should refrain from commenting.

[timmay143]

^^^Only one of the first signs...

[jdavidf]

^^^Only one of the first signs...

Right - goes without saying!

[FromParkAveToTN]

I know some very successful people that live in Antioch: a surgeon, a few attorneys, university professors, and some Ph.D.’s.

I, personally, have never had any problem in the Hickory Hollow Mall area. I think the reputation of the area is false. Actually, when I watch the local news, the crime in Antioch doesn’t seem any different than any other area of the city. Truthfully, it seems to be less than other areas.

I think any city is what you make it out to be. I get so tired of people pointing fingers and blaming others instead of taking their own inventory and trying to do something about it.

“If you don’t like something, change it. If you can’t change it, then change your attitude. Don’t complain.”

-- Maya Angelou

[nashvillwill]

“If you don’t like something, change it. If you can’t change it, then change your attitude. Don’t complain.”

-- Maya Angelou

"Change it"

That's exactly what I did.

Born and raise a stones throw from the mall. Left when I was 18, moved back at 23, left for good at 26.

HHM area IS a depressed economy and a depressing place to live. My wife and I met and started dating there. Our relationship got a little rocky for a short time and when we look back, we both attribute that to living in the area. It's not the same place I grew up. Everywhere we went, we got attitude from people. At the gas station, at a restaurant, EVERYWHERE! I can't blame it on any one factor, but we were unhappy there.

I watch my parents dream house lose value every year. The neighborhood deteriorated. They got out when their house still had a few dollar o value. I witnessed a murder at my job and had to testify in court. I watch everyone I know move away.

Maybe it works for some people and good for them. But it's not the kind of place I would ever raise children or operate a business.

Personally, I think it deserves every reputation it has.

That's just my opinion.

[fieldmarshaldj]

Fieldmarshaldj:

Would you agree that the crime problem along the Murfreesboro Road corridor is not limited to Antioch? For example, the Silverado's area is technically in Donelson (yes, Donelson goes south of I-40). Also, there are still quite nice parts of Antioch, but my friends who live there refer to it as the Priest Lake area instead. I am not sure of the actual boundaries of Antioch, but it seems to me that that part of town gets painted with quite a broad brush.

Either way, the Hickory Hollow mall area specifically is clearly ready for a reboot, although big-box retail is not going to be the answer to that. But I think that the big-box retail implosion is going to hit other areas too. My sense is that Rivergate will be next.

There are lots of problem areas, but this discussion was specifically about Antioch. Even the name evokes a specific response from Nashvillians like almost no other, and almost universally negative. What I find offensive is certain posters here yukking it up and mocking others who dare to criticize the city leadership for having had a very heavy hand in making Antioch's reputation. Antioch has been very weak with having strong leadership in the power structure, one reason why I've concluded that the Metro experiment for Antioch has been an unheralded disaster. We'd have been better off had we been an independent community and put a halt to our being used as a dumping ground. I've had no positive opinion whatsoever for every Mayor post-Briley. Watching attempts by the current regime to try to "revitalize" us just meets with bemusement. To paraphrase the President, when it comes to Antioch in all its decayed glory, they built that.

[fieldmarshaldj]

I know some very successful people that live in Antioch: a surgeon, a few attorneys, university professors, and some Ph.D.’s.

I, personally, have never had any problem in the Hickory Hollow Mall area. I think the reputation of the area is false. Actually, when I watch the local news, the crime in Antioch doesn’t seem any different than any other area of the city. Truthfully, it seems to be less than other areas.

I think any city is what you make it out to be. I get so tired of people pointing fingers and blaming others instead of taking their own inventory and trying to do something about it.

“If you don’t like something, change it. If you can’t change it, then change your attitude. Don’t complain.”

-- Maya Angelou

Do you live here ? I think not. Your rosy description doesn't ring true. Since Antioch has never been in control of its own destiny and has been at the mercy of the Mayor and the Council, neither of whom has ever done much of anything to improve us, I have to scoff at your criticism of those who dare to complain. We were doing quite fine until the 1980s when the enlightened elites decided to try out social experimentation on us. Heaven forbid they inflict such a thing upon their own neighborhoods, goodness gracious. Yes, indeed, I should give thanks to these great folks, making it such a place that chased out all the folks that made this a stable and relatively safe community, replaced with folks that couldn't give a damn about obeying the law (be it immigration ones or any other) or the community itself.

[timmay143]

Do you live here ? I think not. Your rosy description doesn't ring true. Since Antioch has never been in control of its own destiny and has been at the mercy of the Mayor and the Council, neither of whom has ever done much of anything to improve us, I have to scoff at your criticism of those who dare to complain. We were doing quite fine until the 1980s when the enlightened elites decided to try out social experimentation on us. Heaven forbid they inflict such a thing upon their own neighborhoods, goodness gracious. Yes, indeed, I should give thanks to these great folks, making it such a place that chased out all the folks that made this a stable and relatively safe community, replaced with folks that couldn't give a damn about obeying the law (be it immigration ones or any other) or the community itself.

If you don't mind, could you elaborate on "social experiment" and "dumping ground." I do not understand what exactly you are talking about and am curious since you seem to know the most about the area.

I understand the Antioch area and possibly even Bellevue have been neglected, more Antioch than Bellevue. I grew up in the Antioch area. While maybe not exactly in the dead middle of the area, I was on the boundaries where Woodbine, Crieve Hall, Brentwood, and Antioch "converge." Of course, I haven't really been to the Antioch area in awhile, but while I was running around it didn't seem too bad. Yeah, it's not Brentwood or Franklin, but maybe I was just used to it since that it was I saw growing up and a naive teenager. I can see the "decline," but to me at least, there is a lot of potential and just needs a nice boost like 100 Oaks (same could go for Bellevue and the mall and Rivergate, not really familiar with Rivergate).

I frequented HHM and the retail in the area. When I was much younger, I would say in the late 80's and early 90's that was the mall and retail area to go to. Even later on, I still went there without much thought. The Target too. Home Depot, Steak n Shake, Snookers, Casa Fiesta, etc. (Although, I had a bad experience coming from Snookers one night when I was 16! I didn't see the no right turn on red sign. Cop followed me all the way to Sonic on Harding Place before he decided to pull me over. I was almost home! Had like 5 cop cars there. I was like what the heck they got the wrong guy. Said I almost side swiped someone and was "weaving" through traffic on 24. There was no way, but they had a scared 16 year old. Stupid metro.) I worked at H.H. Gregg for a few years too in the early 2000s.

Again, I think HHM is a prime stimulus if the right things are done. I mean the area is surrounded by "decent" areas like La Vergne, Smyrna, Cane Ridge, Priest Lake, etc. Heck, HCA is building their IT or whatever in the Crossings. I have a friend that lives in October Woods which has seen its downturn (his house he bought a few years ago was a foreclosure after the bust) but seems like a decent neighborhood. I really love the area since it is so sentimental and hate that it is like this.

Similarly, I am pissed they closed the Elysian Fields Kroger. Got to go to OHB and Nolensville for Kroger gas now . It was so easy to just run in and out of there. Can probably blame Walmart and the neighborhood decline for that one. Way too crowded in Walmart. RIP Harding Mall .

[fieldmarshaldj]

If you don't mind, could you elaborate on "social experiment" and "dumping ground." I do not understand what exactly you are talking about and am curious since you seem to know the most about the area.

It's not as though I haven't talked about this before, both here and on the Nashville Charrette, and pretty explicitly stated by posters on the Tennessean website (I do not post there). Those enlightened folks who believe in (though won't live) the mantra of "diversity is our strength." This failure to recognize that diversity usually results in an unraveling of things, but yet the elites push this and attack those with the usual buzzwords for daring to challenge their misguided belief system. When my folks & I in utero arrived from New York City in early 1974, this part of Antioch was exceptionally rural. Old rock homes and farmhouses lined my street, across the street was a farm with a swamp for a cow pasture. For the first 13 or so years of my life, I would be awoken to the sound of the moo cows. It was very isolated,

though.

By the end of the '70s, more suburban tracts sprang up and what had been a grazing farm lined with limestone walls became Hickory Hollow Mall. Up to that point, our closest malls were Harding & 100 Oaks and we usually went downtown to the department stores (Cain-Sloan, Caster-Knott, Harvey's & Sears), which I enjoyed as a kid (although going downtown on the weekends was like visiting a ghost town in the late '70s -- and in the pre-riverfront park days, 1st Avenue still had abandoned railroad cars and the hideous old garage/warehouse at the foot of Broadway which you had to walk down to in the river mud to board the old tourist boats). Anyway, by the '80s, HHM and the area exploded with positive growth. It was never a wealth area, mind you, but was a fairly decent lower middle to working class area.

Rather than let it evolve naturally, the elites downtown decided Antioch needed that aforementioned "diversity." It wasn't enough to bus us kids to the rundown urban neighborhoods to go to school, no, we needed those folks to move in en masse so we could be that politically correct utopia, which always seems to work on paper, but almost never in reality. Hence, by aggressively moving more of those folks in, it had the lovely net effect of pushing existing residents out, since they didn't want to deal with the uptick in crime and lowering property values and deteriorating schools. I know by now, some of those elites will be screaming "racist !" Antioch wasn't an entirely lily-white community, it did have Blacks, but those who had either been here long before suburbanites arrived or had worked hard of their own accord to arrive, not via government-imposed "diversity."

Now, if you have folks coming in, of whatever shade, who make the place better or at least keep it stable, that's fine, that's what you want. But when you have folks coming in who aren't adding to the place, but are subtracting, folks whom were previously content to reside in decayed neighborhoods, perpetually enslaved to government dependence, no matter how pretty the new homes and streets are once built in the places to where they are removed to, they will soon remake them in the image of the place they departed. Witnessing that was very sad. In the '80s, these places were desirable to live in, by the '90s, somewhat dodgy, by the '00s, dangerous.

In lowering the desirability of Antioch as a destination, it had drastic repercussions across the board. Worse, yet, the downgrade didn't stop there. I remained long enough to watch the displaced White middle class get replaced by a Black underclass, whom in turn felt uncomfortable in some of the neighborhoods when illegals started moving in en masse. Even our parade of neighbors on either side of our house was something to behold. On one side, back in the '70s, a succession of young White couples lived there, 2 families had moved out by about 1978 (which was about when we should've relocated to a different neighborhood, but I digress), and were replaced by a third, a White family of 5, all the children older than myself. They stayed until 1993, by which time their children had left the nest, and they could see the writing on the wall as the adjacent areas were becoming dodgy, and left for Rutherford County.

Replacing them was a on-the-cusp-of-middle-age White couple, childless, who kept a menagerie of dogs, penned in their yard. In turn, they moved out after about 10 years, but did not (could not) sell the house, because the value had diminished and couldn't find a buyer to break even. So they rented it out to two Black families. I noted how unusual it was when they arrived, because they were almost never outside. It seemed fine with me, since they were largely quiet (only on a couple of occasions was there any drama, 1 loud party outside being one). The first family swiftly moved out without us even being aware of it, we never knew them. The second family was a single mother with her kids. Like the first, also very quiet (and we never knew them, either). Later did we learn that the mother had "problems" and the interior of the house was ruined by their occupancy.

The owners of the house, of course, had to sink a small fortune into repair-work, though they had since relocated to a tonier neighborhood in Brentwood. As a parting gift to us, in the Summer of 2007, they moved in a new Mexican family of unknown number and unknown immigration status, folks who worked for the boyfriend of the owner. It was a nightmare from the get-go. We were besieged day and night with bass "music" that shook the walls of our house and nowhere to escape it. Folks coming and going at all hours, litter all over the property, work trucks and the like parked out all over the yard. Then they proceeded to tear up the slope in the backyard to build a gigantic parking lot and an ugly cement wall, ripping out, but yet leaving up the old metal fence that held the prior canine residents. We've called the police more often than I care to count, called codes, called the Mayor's office, all to little avail. I recall seeing a Black street bum walking by the property thinking he'd struck it rich with all the bottles and cans and proceeded to collect what he could before moving on. Absolutely unimaginable when we moved in.

Yes, members of my family tried talking to the neighbors, but they were viscerally contemptuous. Of course, they had been since day #1. When these charming denizens weren't blasting us with noise, causing serious harm to the health of yours truly, whom has battled health problems since the '90s, we would be treated to the sight of these drunken heathens poking around the backyard, one dropping his pants, exposing himself while I & my father were a short distance away, and pissing in our direction. Yup, the true face of the diversity we "Whities" must embrace, lest we be labelled racist. Other fun stuff was watching their poorly-fed chickens run all over our yard in search of seed, dropping excrement everywhere, patio, sidewalk, driveway, et al. So much so that people driving by thought these marauding birds belonged to us. Yes, we had to actually feed the poor things and would get accosted walking out the door like little Mexican children at the border, demanding food.

As to our neighbors to the other side of us, a White couple with two boys moved in back around 1978 after that housing subdivision began. They managed to last all the way up until around 2000 before they threw in the towel and their boys had grown up and moved on. They fled to Rutherford County as well. Replacing them was no Section 8 crowd, but a Black family whose head-of-household was a Metro police detective. Oddly, not long after moving in, they decided to clear-cut any and all remaining trees to the point their property looked like a open field (whereas before, these were dense woods). Almost seemed a tad paranoid. Interestingly, never did meet the gentleman. They apparently tried to move out on a few occasions, but as with so many others, they couldn't get the $$ they wanted for the property. Eventually, they cleared out as well, and either sold or rented to, you guessed it, a Hispanic family (which at least in their case had the common courtesy for the mother to come over to say hello). At least they're quiet in the few years they've been there.

However, perhaps I thought the coup de grace was from about, what, 2 years ago, when I'd just about finally had it. I think it was right about the time I was being lectured by the PC brigades either here or at the NC, doesn't matter much. Here one spring afternoon, I'm typing away here at the computer with the window open when I hear a scream followed by a gunshot. I mean, it wasn't the first such incident. A weird neighbor of ours a couple doors down decided one afternoon to go into his tool shed and eat a rifle, leaving a wife and two children behind. So, what must this charming incident be ?

Ah, yes... It was a couple of cops paying a visit to a house across the street. As soon as they entered the door, an illegal from Central America, living here unmolested for a decade, viciously stabbed one officer and his partner was forced to respond with discharging his sidearm at point-blank range. The scream had been the cop almost losing his life. Like some 1930s B-movie, the illegal, gut-shot, staggers out his front door, across the lawn and collapses in the street. Within a half-hour or so, we half a traffic jam, numerous emergency vehicles on the scene, and the illegal still laying in the road. All the denizens of the area come out to see the ruckus. From us, to the other neighbors of questionable immigration status, to young, shirtless brothers with their pants around their ankles exclaiming, "The po-po capped somebody !"

With the sirens flashing, the amber lamps, er, ambulance, coming, and all the fun, what more could one need ? Ah, yes, a loud helicopter from WSMV parking right over our house to survey the scene. It was like being in the middle of a movie, one that I did not wish to be a part of. What was truly fun was watching the LACK of coverage from places like the Tennessean. Indeed, that doesn't quite fit with the narrative of diversity being our strength and how we should embrace our neighbors who didn't bother to follow the law in coming here (let alone be concerned with following any other laws, or just basic decency and respect). So much more to this, of course, but I'd only be recounting stories told to me.

Maybe one more, one that really demonstrated why the elites downtown in power thought that by this diversity that Antioch would be a really better place. Hickory Hollow Mall was fine up through perhaps the early '90s or so. Basically because we not only drew on what was still a stable local populace, but even folks from outside the area, too. During the weekdays, you'd have young mothers and older women (mostly White) with disposable income as a mainstay of the mall (my mother being typical of that). When the residential demographics began to shift, it hit HHM's revenue and snowballed from there. Then the crime began increasing. Those women began feeling more and more unsafe and decided to shift their focus to either Green Hills or Cool Springs. Then the earlier shops started to close and be replaced by a different clientele. As it shifted, it seemed to acquire the "Fountain Square" effect.

Now for many of you folks here, you were not around for Fountain Square (AKA 'The Mistake By The Lake', or swamp more like). That opened with great fanfare back around 1987 when Bill Boner was Mayor. The geniuses that came up with this mall thought that by locating a mall in an office park next to a diverse neighborhood (Black ghetto) would be a recipe for long-term success. I admit I went there several times (I was a teenager at the time), but it was apparent to all that the local denizens that congregated there were obviously not doing the one thing you're supposed to do at a mall... spend money. Sure, the movie theaters were doing OK, but I remember going up there to FS and it was frequently deserted. Ultimately, it ceased to be a mall. One irony was some Black folks I knew who lived in the area preferred to come down to Hickory Hollow Mall (when it was still at its apex), because they didn't feel safe at Fountain Square !

Heck, I even remember Church Street Centre (opened slightly after FS -- and it had a big ole plaque on the front with Bill Boner's name on it, does anybody know what happened to that plaque ?), when there were high hopes. Unfortunately, with few residents downtown in the late '80s, it was like opening a mall in a ghost town. Now, had it been constructed today, it might've had a better shot. Walking in the place after 4pm was fun, nobody there. I couldn't even do that today, since I'd be walking about where the main reading room of the library is. Yup, sunk all that money to build a brand-spanking new mall, and the sucker gets unceremoniously torn down after, what, less than a decade ?

But back to HHM again, I remember when my former fiancee was hired to work there almost a dozen years ago. It was already in full-throated decline. Most of the Whites had fled to those aforementioned other malls. She was hired because she "looked" like the new clientele, and thought they'd do better relating to her as a salesperson at one of the department stotes (being mixed race). Indeed, she would come home every day with horror stories of young thugs, shoplifting, and the horrible things the Mexicans would do inside the changing rooms (letting their children go to the bathroom on the floor), or just letting their children run wild through the stores. Me personally, I didn't set foot in HHM for a long time. My jaw dropped when I finally did. The last time I had set foot in there, it was a mix of mostly middle-class folks (largely, but not exclusively White), banner business, and simply put, you felt safe.

Flash forward years later when I went there again, it was largely empty of people overall, nearly all the White folks were gone, those that were there were young brothers with the droopy drawers (whom you could clearly tell were not patronizing the stores, at least not legitimately), and some Hispanics milling about (legal or illegal, I wasn't going to take a census). With the exception of the Hispanics, it resembled Fountain Square in its death throes. It didn't even have the feel of a suburban mall anymore, but a decayed mall either within or on the edge of an urban/inner city. When I went out to Cool Springs about the same time, it was like seeing what HHM was like back in the mid '80s (albeit slightly Whiter than HHM was at the time).

Folks, too, around here might not remember, but there was a time by the late '80s that Green Hills Mall was in decline (albeit for different reasons), and it looked like for a time it might go the way of 100 Oaks & Harding. Fortunately, it didn't, and now remains a booming part of the city... for which was NOT used as a dumping ground to attempt to achieve that aforementioned "diversity." If they knew then what we know now, HHM would probably never have been built, because it would be pure folly to locate such a thing in such a dodgy neighborhood. However, the difference again remains that because Green Hills was close enough to the areas of stronger political influence, near the movers and shakers, they would never have stood for having it be "socially experimented" with. So poor Antioch got stuck with that agenda, and nobody to stop the onslaught. Nobody should act particularly surprised at the outcome. What's so appalling is that politicians and other enlightened elites keep pushing for agendas that create more and more Antiochs nationwide, and claim with a straight face that it is being done as a positive and that it "works." What's the definition of insanity doing something over and over again and expecting a different outcome ?

It's just disgraceful those that have transformed areas such as mine from booming, safe and cohesive to busted, dangerous and "diverse", get away with not having to live in the messes they made, and instead make their stock and trade by railing against those of us who have been put through their experiments, who stand up and demand the insanity stop, and deride us as "dangerous racist righty reactionaries." Well, I should at least thank them for having helped enlighten me as to their true agenda. So endeth the lesson.

[UTgrad09]

Ohh, Antioch. Always a hot topic of discussion when mentioning problems our city is facing. It is perhaps the area of town discussed with the most universally negative opinions outside of maybe North Nashville.

I think, in general, the entire southeast quadrant of Davidson County is one of the most misunderstood and misrepresented areas of town. It is associated with having a high immigrant and minority population, rising crime and gang problems (as well as the declining house values that come with them), lack of a clear identity, and of course, especially on forums such as this, mass amounts of development sin and suburban sprawl.

Before reading any further, I caution you that this post will likely appear as a tangent discussion, going far beyond Hickory Hollow and the mall itself. Continue at your own peril.

First of all, I think it is important that we attempt to define Antioch as clearly as possible. As I mentioned above, there seems to be a misunderstanding about the entire southeast portion of Davidson County -- roughly everything between I-65, I-40, and the Wilson, Rutherford, and Williamson County lines. Antioch is certainly the largest area among these, at least in terms of area. If you talk to some Nashvillians, especially those who are newer to the area, Antioch is synonymous with southeast Davidson. As a consequence, problems in other adjacent areas, such as Glencliff, Woodbine, Paragon Mills, and other areas along Nolensville road are often associated with "the Antioch problem." While they share some similarities, they are two very distinct areas in my mind. At the most basic level, one zip code carries the Antioch name -- 37013. Nolensville Road is almost entirely within the 37211 zip code. It should also be noted that a large portion of the "problem area" along Murfreesboro Road, from around the Bell Road area (on the east side of Murfreesboro Road) including Nashboro Village and Smith Springs Road, is actually in 37217. While that may be consider a periphery area to Antioch, it isn't in the traditional definition of Antioch. Adding to the confusion is the new sort of "split" of Antioch and the Cane Ridge Community, which is basically the southern half 37013.

The boundaries of the are blurred, but they are certainly east of Nolensville road, north of La Vergne, south of the airport, and west of J Percy Priest Lake. The epicenter is near Blue Hole Road at Antioch Pike, just northeast of Hickory Hollow Mall.

Now that we've covered that...I think it's important to point out that every area has it's positives and negatives. I refuse to believe that the whole of Antioch is a bad place. It suffers from a major case of bad perception. Some of that is well earned, some is just a harsh generalization (much like Memphis, it has it's fair share of people willing to go the extra mile just to diss the place). Obviously the entire area has seen better days. In its heyday, Antioch was a thriving middle class suburb -- really a popular destination suburb for "living the American dream." Hickory Hollow was one of, if not the premier shopping location in the region. It was considered a safe place to live, work, and shop.

There are a number of factors that may have contributed to its demise over the years. I'll offer a few of my thoughts.

-The areas around Antioch became more popular places to live.

--Rutherford County exploded in population, and with that, the alternative to live a suburban lifestyle and not have to deal with Metro Nashville schools.

--Williamson County exploded as well. Brentwood was a small affluent enclave in the 80s. In the 90s and 00s, it, as well as Franklin, exploded, drawing higher incomes with it. This also drew a lot of growth of middle and upper middle class development west of Edmondson Pike.

-Hickory Hollow lost its place as a powerful retail center

--The opening of the newer Cool Springs Galleria, and the high concentration of retail that came with it drew away a lot of the more affluent shoppers from Hickory Hollow

--The growth of retail and restaurants in Rutherford County meant that Hickory Hollow was no longer a necessary destination for residents to the south (including those from beyond Rutherford County).

--Opry Mills and Providence provided an alternative to residents living closer to I-40.

--In effect, Hickory Hollow came to primarily serve the residents of the community, not the region. This has led to a number of prominent stores to close.

-There was little if not any oversight in terms of development in the area.

--Aside from the Priest Lake area, which as I mentioned, is sort of on the periphery of Antioch, much of the development is very poorly planned. While this is certainly not an "Antioch only" problem, the fact that this part of the county is where much of the developable land was/is, the negative effects were greatly enhanced.

--Many, many, many apartments were built in the area. Many of them low income apartments. The city allowed developers to flood the area with lower income residents, which, like it or not, tends to drive away higher income residents. The density of residents also allows apartments to have a much greater effect on how fast a neighborhood goes south.

--Policing a higher crime area becomes much more difficult when the area is sprawled out.

And as I alluded to before, problems in adjacent areas became associated with the Antioch name. The local news's poor geography skills probably didn't help the problem, but when things went south at Hickory Hollow, I think it became overwhelming for the area. The damage done in terms of reputation may well be irreparable. Unlike areas in the core that have loads of historic housing stock to offer an incentive to urban pioneers, Antioch is largely suburban, with the most historic neighborhoods offering ranch style homes, and the rest being made up of cookie-cutter vinyl and brick houses, and apartments.

The question remains of what the city can do at this point. They let the problems go unchecked for too long, while they concentrated their efforts on other areas of town. Now they have an epic mess on their hands, and no easy way out.

[timmay143]

Hmm...interesting discussion so far. Thanks guys for your inputs. Thanks fieldmarshaldj for explaining. I know you've been through it before, but NC is closed and forgotten and I hadn't seen you here in awhile. Sorry to rehash, but I think this type of discussion is helpful in understanding the real problems. Sucks that the area (and others) has been neglected. I am not into politics, but it'd be nice to see people who could lead and care. I guess I am too wishful and naive though. More later.

[fieldmarshaldj]

Ohh, Antioch. Always a hot topic of discussion when mentioning problems our city is facing. It is perhaps the area of town discussed with the most universally negative opinions outside of maybe North Nashville.

....

At the most basic level, one zip code carries the Antioch name -- 37013

Excellent post from an outsider with a blunt and factual assessment of the situation. Thanks for the geographical explanation. That is another problem that faces the area, in that virtually the entire southeast quadrant is termed to be Antioch. More to the point, the "actual" Antioch is the cluster of buildings just adjacent to the railroad tracks on Una-Antioch Pike at the "T" junction to Blue Hole Road. I live in 37013, roughly halfway between the old villages of Antioch and Una, the latter of which is almost forgotten, which was the cluster of buildings at the junction of Old Murfreesboro Road and Smith Springs Road. When I tend to refer to "Antioch", I'm referring more to the area effectively between U-A Pike down to Hickory Hollow, my bailiwick. I probably could've summed up my long post with a simple, you can't move in an underclass to supplant a middle and working class and expect disaster not to ensue.

I do ultimately believe Metro has willfully failed us as a community. I think had we been charge of our own destiny as an independent community, we would not have allowed us to be a dumping ground for social experimentation (alas, then some other part of town would've gotten the treatment - probably Rivergate, although Dick Fulton was protective of his baby, one reason he went out of his way to try to harm 100 Oaks and deny them a key interstate exit which may have staved off its initial deterioration, which was disgraceful). Not to say being an independent Antioch of around 50,000 or so souls would've halted ANY decline, but mainly that those who live here and have a stake in the community serving in leadership would've been more motivated to deal with the problems. Any elected official here vigorously encouraging the en masse movement of the underclass would've been swiftly shown the door.

There was no way for us Antioch residents to show similar displeasure with citywide Nashville elected officials whom have repeatedly shown contempt for us. For the record, I have never supported any Mayor that has served here post-Briley, each having been progressively worse for Antioch than the next. As a lifelong resident, I put it simply that I view "Nashville" as an independent being of where I live. "Nashville" is the exciting, happening, booming place with national attention. "Antioch" is the decayed underbelly, once thriving, now largely failed. A place that Nashvillians like to pretend doesn't exist or grimace at when they hear the very name. One thing is clear, we sure as hell deserved a helluva lot better than we got.

[15895]

Because Antioch is such a great bellwether for the rest of Nashville.

Of course, Dallas doesn't have any rough neighborhoods that have seen decline, nope, not at all. And Gilbert, Arizona is SO the place to be now! I hear that they're opening a new Country Kitchen Buffet off the interstate exit, and that you can experience first hand the suburban sprawl every time you step out your door!

In Charlotte, our area in decline is the Eastland Mall area. Shame since many, including myself, have such fond memories of the mall just back in the 90's. The Ice Skating Rink was a huge hit there.

Now its abandoned and the area is rigid, tired, and rough.

There had been talks of turning it into a Hispanic mall, but it recently got bought by the city to be converted into a Studio for movie companies. Not to different it sounds than this area.

The only way to turn around the situation is to be innovative which can be done. It's not a lost hope. Just a matter of the economy getting better $$$

[Neigeville]

It may be hard to resist the belief that somebody must be to blame, but I'd suggest that impersonal market forces may have had more to do with the nationwide decline of many older suburbs like Antioch and Madison than some shadowy conspiracy of elites who for some unexplained reason are bent on creating two Nashvilles, one diverse and one not. This is what sprawl is all about, new housing and new shopping centers are built farther out, the middle class moves out and the old, inner suburbs decline.

Immigrants come here because market forces dictate that businesses would rather use cheap, hard-working labor, and because they can't find jobs at home. The people who run things don't stop it because they want to keep wages down and profits up. It's not some kind of weird social experiment, it's the economy.

Were it not for metro, this decline would have left the rotting old suburbs with no tax base, as has happened to a lot of the older inner suburbs of Chicago and other cities. Wealthy suburbs experience the opposite dynamic, people don't leave them for tract housing and their values go up and up.

American cities, which for decades had all the poor people in the core and the middle class in the suburbs, are slowing shifting to the European model, where the center is wealthy and fashionable and the poor live on the fringes. Too bad Antioch couldn't be preserved in some kind of time warp, but that's life. I don't see a turnaround coming. In fact, decades hence, when DT is running out of places to expand and the old housing projects are due for a rebuild, look for them to be built, like the ones in Paris, around rapid transit stops in the suburbs.

[UTgrad09]

Excellent post from an outsider with a blunt and factual assessment of the situation. Thanks for the geographical explanation. That is another problem that faces the area, in that virtually the entire southeast quadrant is termed to be Antioch. More to the point, the "actual" Antioch is the cluster of buildings just adjacent to the railroad tracks on Una-Antioch Pike at the "T" junction to Blue Hole Road. I live in 37013, roughly halfway between the old villages of Antioch and Una, the latter of which is almost forgotten, which was the cluster of buildings at the junction of Old Murfreesboro Road and Smith Springs Road. When I tend to refer to "Antioch", I'm referring more to the area effectively between U-A Pike down to Hickory Hollow, my bailiwick. I probably could've summed up my long post with a simple, you can't move in an underclass to supplant a middle and working class and expect disaster not to ensue.

Thank you. I grew up in southeast Davidson near Brentwood. There's not really a technical name for the area -- but it's closer to old Brentwood than much of Brentwood actually is...south of much of what is considered Crieve Hall. The Oglesby community house is nearby, but the Nipper's Corner name sort of overtook that particular area. Either the Granberry area or Cloverland area might work as well. It was primarily farmland in the 70s (when my parents moved in), and I can remember the majority of the development being built while I was a kid in the early 90s.

Later in the 90s, as Antioch began to show some serious signs of decline, some snooty Brentwood residents started to refer to the area as "Brentioch," which was generally considered to be a derogatory term. That's when I started to realize that most residents really had no idea what Antioch "was," considering how far from Antioch we actually were (and how we were much closer to Crieve Hall than any other established place name in the area).

I went to Hickory Hollow numerous times as a kid -- even a bit after Cool Springs opened (usually just around the holidays at that point. By the late 90s, though, my family stopped going there. Not really because of a crime perception as much as it was that most of the options in Hickory Hollow were available closer to home.

I do ultimately believe Metro has willfully failed us as a community. I think had we been charge of our own destiny as an independent community, we would not have allowed us to be a dumping ground for social experimentation (alas, then some other part of town would've gotten the treatment - probably Rivergate, although Dick Fulton was protective of his baby, one reason he went out of his way to try to harm 100 Oaks and deny them a key interstate exit which may have staved off its initial deterioration, which was disgraceful). Not to say being an independent Antioch of around 50,000 or so souls would've halted ANY decline, but mainly that those who live here and have a stake in the community serving in leadership would've been more motivated to deal with the problems. Any elected official here vigorously encouraging the en masse movement of the underclass would've been swiftly shown the door.

I am a lifelong resident of Nashville, but quite a few years behind you. You're probably the first person I've come across who has described the transformation of Antioch from a long time resident's perspective....or at least the ones I've come across aren't as well thought out.

I can't speak of what you term as social experimentation, as that was before my time. I'll take your word for it. In some way, it would make some logical sense considering the pushes made in the past to give minorities opportunities to escape the inner cities as well as pushes to forcibly integrate schools. On one hand, I think that it would be nice if our communities were more racially and ethnically integrated...but such a transformation cannot be forced without certain consequences. If what you are saying happened did indeed happen, then Antioch would seem to prove itself as one of those "consequences."

In a dangerously speculative twist, I wonder if the desire to relocate a number of residents from the inner city could have been done with the intention of making it easier to revive some of the close in core neighborhoods, which had become increasingly black and poor during the middle of the 20th century. I won't go any further with that one. It's just a thought.

Without going any further or getting political, I'd probably sum it up to say that the politician's intentions may have been good, but the road to hell is paved with good intentions. In effect, while some things need immediate change, most things should simply happen naturally.

There was no way for us Antioch residents to show similar displeasure with citywide Nashville elected officials whom have repeatedly shown contempt for us. For the record, I have never supported any Mayor that has served here post-Briley, each having been progressively worse for Antioch than the next. As a lifelong resident, I put it simply that I view "Nashville" as an independent being of where I live. "Nashville" is the exciting, happening, booming place with national attention. "Antioch" is the decayed underbelly, once thriving, now largely failed. A place that Nashvillians like to pretend doesn't exist or grimace at when they hear the very name. One thing is clear, we sure as hell deserved a helluva lot better than we got.

Antioch has certainly become the step child of Nashville neighborhoods. I don't know if I would go as far to say that the elected officials have intentionally slighted Antioch, but they certainly neglected the problem, and looked the other way until it was out of control.

I don't think that Nashville residents don't acknowledge the existence of Antioch, but rather they either have nothing good to say -- or when discussing the positive attributes of Nashville, the mention of Antioch will most certainly lead the discussion into a very negative place. In essence, it's a buzzkill to talk about, especially when so much discussion is around the positive direction that the city is going, in general.

For an Antioch resident, though, it must be tough to feel like you are neglected and forgotten. Hopefully some real positive change in direction comes to Antioch...and soon. Unfortunately, I can't say I'm full of meaningful ideas, outside of a much higher police presence.

Also, if you would indulge me, aside from what you refer to as social experimentation, what are some of the decisions made by our mayors that you consider to be mistakes, or generally harmful for Antioch?

[UTgrad09]

It may be hard to resist the belief that somebody must be to blame, but I'd suggest that impersonal market forces may have had more to do with the nationwide decline of many older suburbs like Antioch and Madison than some shadowy conspiracy of elites who for some unexplained reason are bent on creating two Nashvilles, one diverse and one not. This is what sprawl is all about, new housing and new shopping centers are built farther out, the middle class moves out and the old, inner suburbs decline.

Immigrants come here because market forces dictate that businesses would rather use cheap, hard-working labor, and because they can't find jobs at home. The people who run things don't stop it because they want to keep wages down and profits up. It's not some kind of weird social experiment, it's the economy.

Were it not for metro, this decline would have left the rotting old suburbs with no tax base, as has happened to a lot of the older inner suburbs of Chicago and other cities. Wealthy suburbs experience the opposite dynamic, people don't leave them for tract housing and their values go up and up.

American cities, which for decades had all the poor people in the core and the middle class in the suburbs, are slowing shifting to the European model, where the center is wealthy and fashionable and the poor live on the fringes. Too bad Antioch couldn't be preserved in some kind of time warp, but that's life. I don't see a turnaround coming. In fact, decades hence, when DT is running out of places to expand and the old housing projects are due for a rebuild, look for them to be built, like the ones in Paris, around rapid transit stops in the suburbs.

I personally don't view it as social experimentation, and I am not one to always assign fault, as many decisions have unforeseen consequences. I think Antioch's problems are a result of sprawl, or at least that is some of the equation. More than just sprawl (because that is, and has happened all over the county), though, but it was an area with almost completely unchecked development (rubber stamp from the so-called "planning" commission) and a plethora of housing that was very friendly to turn into lower-income housing. Some of the has passed on to other suburban areas, even outside the county (such as La Vergne)...but I think the problem is exacerbated in Antioch, because it is closer to Nashville than many other suburban areas -- and it is large.

I also don't think you can completely ignore some of the points fieldmarshal brings up about things being done in the name of being "progressive." Again, I'm not looking to start a political debate, but there is certainly evidence both here and around the country of city officials wanting to facilitate integration. Integration in itself should not be considered a bad word -- but when it is hastily planned out, or just plain not thought through, the consequences can be great.

Perhaps the destiny of Antioch was eventually meant to become this -- but I think it's fairly obvious that the type of development that became popular in the area expedited the process.

Every city needs lower income housing, as a matter of economics. As some formerly poor inner city neighborhoods (some of them very prosperous before the became poor) become gentrified, the lower income residents must go somewhere. And with a growing city, more lower income housing must be built. I can see how someone who lived in Antioch prior to this transformation, when it was a thriving community, could see the city allowing an abundance of lower income housing to be built in the area could make them feel like their neighborhood was a "social experiment" or "dumping ground" for the city. I don't necessarily share those views, but there are a lot of factors and dynamics in play. Antioch just happened to be the odd man out, so to speak.

As to your example of Madison -- Madison is a little different than Antioch. My dad grew up in Madison in the 60s. It's seen a similar decline, but the reasons for the decline don't have as much in common with Antioch, at least in my mind. I'm not sure Madison ever saw the heights reached by Antioch -- at least not in a similar fashion. There are also a lot more *nice* houses in Antioch. Madison developed a little earlier, and I think it's seeing a decline more in line with what the core neighborhoods saw in the middle of last century. FWIW, Madison also has more of a planned, cohesive feel. It is not urban, but by far more "urban" than Antioch. It's more in line with Inglewood.

[samsonh]

Fieldmarshall,

How did the elites decide Antioch was a dumping ground? What policy decisions did they make that caused an influx of lower income residents? Was it a planning thing? How did they encourage minorities to move to Antioch?

Serious questions, and questions I do not know the answer to.

It seems to me that Antioch had abundant cheap land, and this led to developers putting cheaper, lower quality housing in the area. So it seems market forces led to Antioch becoming what it is today, not Metro policy.

Also, what do you mean when you keep saying social experimentation? Examples of this?

[smeagolsfree]

I really think that everything is cyclical. For example 20 years ago E. Nashville, Germantown and 12 South were not places to live but Antioch and Woodbine were. Seems as if these areas go in a fifty year flux. However some could just stay bad. You will have undesirable neighborhoods in every city. They get bad and then they get better. Give it time and they will get better, however it may take another 30 years. And yes, I think it is market driven. People go where they can afford to live. The shift is now back to the core for your more expensive desirable areas which force lower income people out.

This discussion however has gotten entirely off topic.

Will Target stay or go? I would say they will probably go. They want a profit and if a store is not making money then should close.