Cameron Village Developments

[tjoad]

Cameron Village could soon expand

 

...a new project is being discussed this time even closer to Cameron Village at the (northeast) intersection of Oberlin Road and Clark Avenue. Buildings could range in height from 5 to 9 stories.

 

"They're proposing nearly 300 units residential, 28,000 feet of retail," City Council Member, Russ Stephenson said.

 

I was just talking about the lack of a residential element to CV, and here I find this . I really hope this happens, but it's still in the very early stages. I'm not sure who the developer is but they seem to be very willing to listen to what the neighborhood has to say, as they have already had public meetings. I have a hunch it will be closer to the 5 stories than to the 9.

[JeffC]

Cameron Village could soon expand

...a new project is being discussed this time even closer to Cameron Village at the (northeast) intersection of Oberlin Road and Clark Avenue. Buildings could range in height from 5 to 9 stories.

"They're proposing nearly 300 units residential, 28,000 feet of retail," City Council Member, Russ Stephenson said.

I was just talking about the lack of a residential element to CV, and here I find this . I really hope this happens, but it's still in the very early stages. I'm not sure who the developer is but they seem to be very willing to listen to what the neighborhood has to say, as they have already had public meetings. I have a hunch it will be closer to the 5 stories than to the 9.

No way University Park residents (who include some of the most well-connected and influential folks in the city) go for a nine story building here...But would be nice to see this rather seedy corner of Cameron Village updated...I'm guessing it would stretch along Oberlin and encompass the old Ballentine's building...

[ERG]

No way University Park residents (who include some of the most well-connected and influential folks in the city) go for a nine story building here...But would be nice to see this rather seedy corner of Cameron Village updated...I'm guessing it would stretch along Oberlin and encompass the old Ballentine's building...

yeah ill be shocked when a 9 story building is approved by the neighbors. also, with the proximity to NCSU, i hope some units will be for rent. but i doubt it.

would this kind of development even jive with the whole concept of CV? outdoor, pull up to the curb, single or 2-story buildings?

[orulz]

I think (thought) the idea was to eventually redevelop all of CV into something more like this proposal. Turn everything inside-out with parking in the middle of the block and stores on the outside, with residential and/or office space on top.

[ERG]

I think (thought) the idea was to eventually redevelop all of CV into something more like this proposal. Turn everything inside-out with parking in the middle of the block and stores on the outside, with residential and/or office space on top.

ah. that would be nice. i wouldnt mind if it stayed kind of low to the ground, like no higher than the oberlin court stuff.

[RaleighRob]

I think this corner can handle the higher building. It's the corners on the south side of Clark that probably, for now, should be kept lower since they are closer to the residential areas. But this one with the old office buildings and empty cafeteria has much potential. It's the only part of CV that hasn't been refurbished in any way, in recent memory.

[DPK]

It's the only part of CV that hasn't been refurbished in any way, in recent memory.

Don't forget the old dry cleaners that was supposed to be the new two story Chick-fil-A.

http://www.gogoraleigh.com/2008/01/13/test3/

[StevenRocks]

Parts of Cameron Village could stand to be more densely developed, but I kind of like it the way it is.

[Jones_]

somehow I got the idea that most of the really big projects at CV never happen because the place is always owned by some offshore investment group that is only interested, and happy with, the current cash flow situation. Facade updates. lowering taxes by removing unused parking decks, all nice, but relatively cheap maintenance type stuff. Residential is a complete change from CV's history to date, so I am surprised to see it. Its nice for sure, but I am curious as to what all is going on behind the headlines. 9 stories would be great here, and with practically and actual "every thing you need" nearby, would not generate as many new vehicle trips for the existing roads. Cameron Park did whittle The Tucker (Lofts on Glenwood) from 5 to four stories adjacent to St Mary's Street, so you never know what they'll be happy with. I never know what "character" they are trying to preserve since years ago they opposed historic overlay districts that would restrict what people could do to their homes within the neighborhood, yet they are plenty happy to tell people outside the neighborhood what they should be doing but I digress...

[tjoad]

A new rendering for the proposed highrise at Clark & Oberlin from the TBJ.

[DPK]

I'm glad to see that Crescent is actively trying to get the neighboring community involved in this project. I mean, seven meetings with the neighbors still before it even goes before the city, that's impressive.

[ChiefJoJo]

I think this is the future of CV... more urban buildings with little-to-no setbacks, more height and density (mostly low rise), with structured parking. The rest of CV almost certainly won't last another 5 years before it goes this way IMO. The land will become too valuable. They could easily develop one block at a time, leaving the strores in tact.

The Cresent project will be interesting... will this be high-end condos? or affordable? Something in the $150-200k range would be great for young college grads who can't quite afford downtown yet, but want to be close enough to ride a bike.

[DPK]

The meeting for this project is today at City Hall!

http://www.newsobserver.com/business/story/1141769.html

Also, here is the revised Cameron Village Streetscape Plan:

http://www.raleighnc.gov/publications/Plan...g_Amendment.pdf

The revised plan includes the new Crescent building on block 2A:

Edited July 15, 2008 by DPK

[ChiefJoJo]

^ Yeah, I just saw the WRAL coverage here. Funny, how you can change public perception by emphasizing one particular aspect of this "story." Bowens commented that it was a '5 to 9 story tower' and mentioned Coker Towers, which was down Oberlin Rd at Wade. First, I don't know if this qualifies as a tower. Second, it seems to me that 5-9 stories is reasonable here, especially when the 9-story portion is set back from the street (as it appears to be). The street grid is good in that area and it looks to be mixed use, so traffic is probably not too adversely affected. Of course, the media wants to stir things up and I can see the neighbors in Cameron/University Park trying to derail this. The new comp plan/zoning code can't get here fast enough...

[Jones_]

Occidental was also mentioned and how neighbors had that original scope nixed. Hardly the same animal as Occidental was adjacent to homes and Cresent is adjacent only to other commercial and office properties even across the street. I imagine Cresent will look alot like the building just finished on Oberlin at Wade with the ground floor commercial, only a little taller.

I think this project is perfect for this corner...the corner as is kind of sucks, with dead office uses, and a gas station. This would kind of invite the areas pedestrian traffic into Cameron Village in a way with its corner emphasis.

Edited July 16, 2008 by Jones133

[orulz]

Speaking of this project, does anybody know what went down at the public hearing yesterday? None of the news outlets appear to be reporting. WRAL seemed to be expecting lots of opposition and controversy, but prior articles in the N&O and biz journal mentioned that the developer had been getting lots of input from the neighbors before putting anything in front of staff or council.

[DPK]

WRAL seemed to be expecting lots of opposition and controversy, but prior articles in the N&O and biz journal mentioned that the developer had been getting lots of input from the neighbors before putting anything in front of staff or council.

WRAL commenter's whine about everything and I'm convinced that they have nothing better to do with their lives than complain. WRAL could post a news story on how someone's pet puppy dog saved a drowning disabled child from a lake and you'd get someone commenting on how evil lakes are and that we should drain them all. Then insert some random comment about the drought and then blame the city council for something.

Also no idea on the hearing. The zoning website directory for this hasn't been updated with anything new since the 3rd:

http://www.raleighnc.gov/portal/server.pt?...8&DirMode=1

Z-40-08 Oberlin Road and Clark Avenue, northeast quadrant of intersection, being Wake County PINs 1704020696, 1704020486, 1704022318, and a portion of 1704023636. Approximately 2.67 acres are being requested by Crescent Resources LLC and Columbia Cameron Village LLC to be subject to amendment of the current Cameron Village Pedestrian Business Overlay District Streetscape and Parking Plan. The amended plan proposes to address this subject portion of Block 2, including establishing a maximum height for the property. (Staff Contact: Doug Hill, 919-516-2622, [email protected])

Edited July 17, 2008 by DPK

[dmccall]

Why shouldn't they expect Cameron Park to object? Given the past history of resistance to any sort of building replacements in that part of town, I'm shocked that there aren't yard signs galore. Maybe they finally realized that the intense increase in property values and quality of life around North Hills could have happened to them. (I don't think Kane would have done the NH thing if Coker had been able to realize his original plan)

[DPK]

I contacted Doug Hill and got a reply on this:

From: "Hill, Doug" <[email protected]>

Subject: RE: regarding Z-40-08 Oberlin Road and Clark Avenue

Date: Thu, July 17, 2008 9:05 am

RTN Streaming Video has posted the hearing online at

http://raleigh.granicus.com/ViewPublisher.php?view_id=2

Click on the "Video" for the most recent "City Council Zoning" (top of

the list); wait for it to load, then skip to 2:22 (2 hours, 22 minutes

into the hearing).

The case automatically goes to Planning Commission review. Initial

discussion has been deferred from the July 22 meeting; the commission's

next meeting is August 12.

Doug Hill, AICP

Department of City Planning

One Exchange Plaza -- Suite 204

PO Box 590

Raleigh, NC 27602-0590

(919) 516-2622

(919) 516-2682 fax

[email protected]

-----Original Message-----

Sent: Thursday, July 17, 2008 8:51 AM

To: Hill, Doug

Subject: regarding Z-40-08 Oberlin Road and Clark Avenue

Greetings,

I was wondering what the status of this zoning petition was and how the

public hearing went a few days ago. I wasn't able to make the meeting

but would like to stay updated on the project. Are there any other hearings

scheduled for future reference as well?

Edited July 17, 2008 by DPK

[orulz]

I just watched the public hearing on the project. Most opposition tended to lean towards the traditional NIMBY bastions of "Too tall" and "Too much traffic." Everybody who spoke against the project said that they would support a similar project that has been scaled down somewhat, say in the 4-6 story range.

Well, to that I say... it IS 4-6 stories along Clark and Oberlin. The 9-story portion is set back from the streets. I think this is a great fit for the area. And despite what the neighborhood said, I've driven on Oberlin and Clark at all times of the day, and never have I seen either in a state that could be remotely called "choked with traffic." Yes, there's traffic, but both of these streets are thoroughfares, which are SUPPOSED to carry traffic, and both carry far less than what would cause them to have issues with congestion.

[rjgeary]

I hope you all will take a moment to pull up Crescent's rezoning application and go to the final page (pg. 7) where massing is shown and the actual building envelope is depicted. The application is NOT to build the structure shown in the pictures you've been looking at. The application is quite clear about that: "building shown within envelope is conceptual only and subject to change," it states.

So what's my point? Simply this. The application IS to amend the streetscape plan that applies to Cameron Village, removing the existing height standards that apply to this portion of CV and replacing them with a "building envelope" that essentially allows a 13-story building on most of the site. 13? Not 9? Well, don't take my word for it, look at the massing sections.

The headline on your item says 200-plus units, I believe. Actually, Crescent has been very clear that they want to build 290 units on the 2.6-acre site. That would require (they say) a five-level parking deck with two towers of up to eight residential levels built on top of it. All of this parking would be above grade at the low point on the site, which is behind the Carolina Cafe and the stores adjacent to it along Daniels Street. existing stores and Carolina Cafe.

Crescent's "conceptual" renderings indicate that the deck and units can be shoe-horned onto this site without occupying the full building envelope for which they're applying -- which begs the question, then why are they applying for it?

I don't have an instant answer to the question of how tall or how dense the development of this site should be. What I do think, however, is that we need to model the future development of Cameron Village together with the future development and redevelopment of the rest of this area of Oberlin Road to determine how much traffic (ergo, how much density) it can finally handle.

Actually, that task was undertaken four years ago when a group appointed by the city (I was a member, as were several folks representing Cameron Village's interests) wrote the small-area plan for the Oberlin-Clark vicinity. The final plan, adopted by the city as part of the comprehensive plan, calls for the redevelopment of Cameron Village to proceed in accordance with the standards for village centers set in Raleigh's Urban Design Guidelines. The UDG's call for building heights of 4-8 stories, with the highest levels in the "core" of a village center and no more than 4 stories at the edges.

Crescent could comply with the small-area plan and the UDG's without seeking to amend the streetscape plan at all -- without this rezoning case, iow. But instead, they've sought to rezone in a way that would allow them to build a rather massive building on this edge of Cameron Village, setting a precedent for more, and much bigger, projects in the core. They SAY it won't be so massive. But they've refused, so far, to change their application in a way that would back up those assurances with some legal limits. And meantime, they acknowledge that the renderings they've shown may or may not look something like what they'll eventually want to build.

By the way, the next shoe that drops on this corner will be a proposal from another developer to put up a hotel of unspecified size and a major office building across from Cameron Village. Which may make perfect sense, if you're rooting for Oberlin Road to be the next Six Forks Road. If you're not, then the scale of these various projects should be of some interest to you.

[orulz]

I'll allow that I don't live in Cameron Park or University Park, but I would definitely love to see dense development at Cameron Village. I don't think anyone is rooting for Oberlin to become the next Six Forks. I see what you're getting at, but I think the analogy is off the mark. For what I'd like to see on Oberlin (and for what this developer is proposing) think Glenwood Avenue. between Peace and Hillsborough. Last I checked, Glenwood has a 13-story building, and taller buildings a block away. Do they ruin anybody's quality of life? Hardly. I have nothing wrong with 13 stories at the back of the lot, backing up to the commercial area of Cameron Village.

I think you do raise a valid point about the proposed building envelope. If you like stepbacks (I think they are a reasonable demand for the neighborhood to make in this situation) then I'll concur that the The 20 foot stepback along Clark before heights can rise to 124 feet are small. The 40 foot stepback along Oberlin is better, but still small. I wonder if there's a specific number that the neighborhoods could propose that they would be amenable to? 50 feet? 100 feet? 150 feet?

Regarding the issue of density and traffic, though, what's at issue here is the increase in residential density, which really won't generate a whole lot of vehicle traffic. It's not like throwing up a brand new Wal-Mart or shopping mall (the shopping center is already there.) Sure, most people will commute by car. For a 300 unit building, That would correspond to an increase of (guessing here) 100 vehicles per hour at peak rush hour. Spread that traffic out in both directions along both Clark and Oberlin, throw in Daniels and Woodburn, and the increase in cars from this building alone will be imperceptible. Extend that density to the rest of Cameron Village, and you get about a total of somewhere around 3000 units - or about 1000 additional peak-hour vehicle trips. Again, spread that out over all directions on all the streets, and you have perhaps a noticable increase in rush hour traffic, but nothing compared to the traffic already generated by Cameron Village, and not enough to push any of these streets over the edge. And that's completely discounting the changes in travel patterns (less driving, more walking, more biking, more transit) that tend to occur as density (and gas prices, ha) go up.

The biggest jump in traffic that you'll see is a jump in FOOT traffic, and I don't think you'll ever find someone complaining that the sidewalks are too crowded along Oberlin. The argument that high residential density begets too much traffic, in a gridded and well connected neighborhood like this, is pretty much a fallacy - especially at 100 units per acre.

[DPK]

Whatever happens here, those bloody lights in Cameron Village (especially at that corner) need to be modified so they aren't just timed lights but also factor in vehicle sensors. That would move traffic a lot quicker in instances where you'll have cars sitting at that intersection at rush hour and the lights just stay green in the directions where vehicles have moved through the intersection.

I also can't even begin to describe how frustrating it can be sometimes to hit 3 red lights going through there at 2am when there's nobody there. Most of the time there is no need for the left turn signal coming up Oberlin from Hillsborough Street, even during rush hour. If that signal didn't always cycle, straight traffic coming from the Wade direction on Oberlin could get their green lights all around. That would clear that side of the intersection for more traffic to green-light/come from the other set of lights further down on Oberlin.

Certain times of day I can pretty much predict all the light cycles based on pedestrian crosswalk light-flash counting or watching which light is cycling at which time.

[askmisterbrown]

While I am in favor of density, it is not an altar to be worshipped at. This site is just one block away from beautiful historic single-family homes that should be preserved. 13 stories and 290 units is too much. University Park and especially Cameron Park are among Raleigh's greatest treasures, and it is not in Raleigh's interest to threaten them. Clark Ave. to the west and Oberlin Rd. further north are two-lane roads with beautiful historic homes on both sides. These roads should not and cannot be widened. There are hundreds of sites inside the beltline on which a 13-story, 290- unit building would be appropriate; this is not one of them.

As rjgeary states, the issue is precedent. The City can't say that a 13-story building is OK here, and the rest of the area is limited to 2 stories.

The small-area plan was well thought out; it was adopted; it needs to be followed.

[RaleighRob]

I'm gonna agree with Orulz here. 300 units in residential is NOT going to add that much traffic. (Unless everyone decides to have a dinner party with two-dozen guests each, simultaneously on the same night!)

You can't possibly assume all those people will be going out and commuting to work at the very exact same time. There will be retirees, telecommuters, self-employed, second-shifters, etc in the mix. Also consider this residential would be very high on the wishlist for people who work at NCSU or downtown (or adjacent Cameron Village area office buildings) who could walk, bike, or bus to work and that's even less cars. And between Oberlin, Clark, Woodburn, Enterprise and Daniels, there is enough roads to handle them....not that many people are going shopping at rush hour anyways. (Plus, part of Oberlin is already being improved with the Pullen Rd extension.)

DPK is correct...the worst thing for traffic here is those signals and their horrible lack of good timing. They are very out of date....which you can say for most of Raleigh.

I disagree that a 13 story building could harm Cameron Park or University Park. (And I've lived in both.) There is certainly enough of a "buffer" between this site and the nearest houses that I can't see how it could possible threaten either of those neighborhoods. The degradation and neglect of Hillsborough Street over the past three decades has done FAR worse to those neighborhoods than a 13 story condo building could possibly do!