Lake Nona - Medical City

[sunshine]

But imagine what our tiny downtown would look like now with the convention centre there.

[JRS1]

I know you have a bias towards MetroWest ... but to say that was making good use of vacant land "within the city" just because the city annexed way out there in the boonies is very misleading. The city is annexing land all over the county so they can develop and get the taxes. ... there's a BIG difference between vacant land in the city and vacant land in the city limits. The city limits are wherever the city wants them to be.

I'll buy into Baldwin Park as making good use of vacant city land. The former tennant left. It's not too far from the CBD and is surrounded by infrastructure. Cannot say the same for Lee Vista, Millenia, MetroWest or Avalon.

I guess it also depends on how you define vacant land. I call an abandoned strip mall vacant land. I call an old parking lot next to an empty warehouse vacant land. I call a former Navy base vacant land. Woodlands are NOT vacant land.

Here's the biggest difference- you can't judge these conceptually and in a vacuum. I understand the thing about developing a vacant strip mall. But some of these areas you mention have significance b/c of their geography regardless of the fact that they're far from downtown:

1. Lee Vista-- this area needs to be developed b/c it is adjacent to OIA. It needs to be heavily developed. OIA has the Tradeport area and AIPO to the SW, and Lee Vista to the north. Hopefully, that plaza to the west of 436 and just north of 528 gets done, and of course The Current with the Super Target. When you first get out of that terminal, now, the airport access road (436) is wider going into the 528 interchange and 436 has been widened as well north of 528. All of that is great. They just need to build more stuff there... offices; hotels; restaurants; retail; housing... and of course the Publix distribution center like they were planning.

2. Millenia-- this former dark zone between JYP and the Kirkman interchange was prime for development. It connected Conroy to Americana (for better or worse), and is one of the most dense developments of its type in Florida and in such a short period of time. Had it not been for the bust, that Millenia Gardens development would have sent this sector of town into overdrive with density; and Walsh's passing hurt as well with the Millenia Lakes development on the other side...

3. Metrowest-- it is a distinct neighborhood now. it is another "development node" within a mostly urban area that is distinctive. otherwise, the west orlando urban area would be one boring bland area like much of Miami-Dade near the Palmetto. It is the inbetween of Dr. Phillips, Orlovista, and Pine Hills. It has purpose. It's also a rather large office park as well.

4. Avalon-- you're right about Avalon. it's in BFE.

[sunshine]

From my limited urban development experience, I think that satellite city was built in the outlying area because the centre city got too dense and run out of area for development. In this town, it seems to work the opposite way.

And this medical city is not really urban, it is more like a sprawling campus that is car oriented. I am not saying Burham or UCF should build a 50 stories skyscraper downtown to house their entire operation in one building, but they can build multiple 10 stories buildings in paramore area. They are getting incentive from the state or the city right? They should help the city back by building in the depressed area of downtown.

[JRS1]

^^

I agree with you on that. Except, you gotta remember the circ's of winning the bid to land Burnham in the first place:

One of the things they tried to use to lure Burnham to Orlando was the proximity to OIA and the chance to be part of a brand new development with a lot of entities incolved (VA, UF UCF, Nemours, etc.), not the chance to participate in urban renewal of a high crime area. Who was it, Port St. Lucie, who ORL was competing against? They were pitching this new PUD and their incentives as well.

That's why the came up with the "medical city". It goes back to the fallacy of this is what we get and the alternative may be nothing at all (see Hilton Orlando's current design versus not getting the hotel and allowing the OCCC to continue to suffer for lack of convention-class rooms nearby).

[jack]

Yeah, there was too much in incentives (location and financial) for the Centroplex to win. But it would have been nice.

Edited June 25, 2009 by jack

[sunshine]

They could have pitch urban medical city with centralized location and join the Florida Hospital and ORMC downtown alogn with commuter rail.

[prahaboheme]

They could have pitch urban medical city with centralized location and join the Florida Hospital and ORMC downtown alogn with commuter rail.

Exactly.

[JRS1]

^^

I agree. it's funny, now that we see all of the new construction at both FH South and ORHS. It's amazing. FH South now looks like such a progressive development with all of the new projects being built. Same with ORHS, with the new garage block going up and the Winnie Palmer towers... who wouldn't want to be part of either of those two complexes...

[RedStatesWork]

Just as Orange County is making the push through Medical City and Innovation Way to bring Medical and Technology Industy job to expand out tourism based economy, UCF takes two steps backwards with grads who will work these new jobs. Look at all the 4 programs (cardiopulmonary \ radialogical sciences, engineering technology, MIS) which are extremely high-paying, relevant medical \ technology majors that will produce well skilled graduates to grow these industries. I can't believe UCF cut those practical majors, yet left alone all of the liberal arts majors. Shows the liberal influence running our education system. I guess cutting Anthropology or Humanities - Popular Culture is not PC. I'm sure companies coming to Medical City are dying for UCF grads with a Theater Studies degree. Thankfully they kept Philosophy since it's a great degree to have... Yeah, if you want to think deep thoughts about being unemployed. UCF is a joke! http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/educat...0,2230754.story

[prahaboheme]

I fail to see how cutting these programs, while unfortunate, is some liberal conspiracy. It is probably a situation of supply and demand. If the programs are not as popular, and less competitive, then they are what goes. Simple as that.

[cwetteland]

Just as Orange County is making the push through Medical City and Innovation Way to bring Medical and Technology Industy job to expand out tourism based economy, UCF takes two steps backwards with grads who will work these new jobs. Look at all the 4 programs (cardiopulmonary \ radialogical sciences, engineering technology, MIS) which are extremely high-paying, relevant medical \ technology majors that will produce well skilled graduates to grow these industries. I can't believe UCF cut those practical majors, yet left alone all of the liberal arts majors. Shows the liberal influence running our education system. I guess cutting Anthropology or Humanities - Popular Culture is not PC. I'm sure companies coming to Medical City are dying for UCF grads with a Theater Studies degree. Thankfully they kept Philosophy since it's a great degree to have... Yeah, if you want to think deep thoughts about being unemployed. UCF is a joke! http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/educat...0,2230754.story

Politics don't belong on this board. If you have any facts to offer, please do. Above you offer nothing that would make this post anything but unsubstantiated political trash. If you know what criteria the board of trustees used to make the selection and can present it here for discussion without going ballistic, it would be welcomed. As written, this post, just seems like a clueless rant and more seriously, a divisive rant. This immature blue state red state civil war nonsense is destroying the county. There are no winners; and everyone loses. We are so quickly becoming like Northern Ireland and the Middle East.

Edited July 24, 2009 by cwetteland

[RedStatesWork]

This board is about Urban growth and discussing policies that contribute to growth is appropriate. Because of Federalism and the 10th Amendment (sorry if I offended with a Constitution citation), we have 50 different States that can enact their own policies for us as USA citizens can later measure what works and what doesn't. The biggest Blue States with high Tax / Spend/ Regulation like CA, NY, NJ, MI are also the the states doing the worst budget and unemployment wise. The biggest of the Red State with low taxes / regulation, TX, has the best job growth and state budget is in the black. Therefore, we as Floridians who like a growing economy and the Urban Development which follows should have a forum to discuss and analyze what other states are doing to grow.

About UCF, one of the reasons (if not the best reason) students go to college is to have a marketable skill once out of school in order to get a good job. These 5 majors cuts are all in the medical \ technology fields, all in demand (just google them and see hot they rank in pay\demand), and because of Supply/Demand, also high paying. The City \ County Govt sees our regions economic growth potential by attracting (by of all things evil tax cuts) medical employers (like Burhman Institute) and technology firms to Innovation Way \ Research Park. I wanted to point out how insane I see spending money attracting medical / technology employers on one hand, but then having the regions largest university cutting the majors that would best develop potential employees for those industries on the other hand. To deny a liberal influence in academia is just as insane as me denying a conservative influence in the NRA. With this liberal influence, you can see how political \ ideology could clowd the trustees judgement by cutting these 5 non-liberal ideological majors rather than having to cut programs from their college of LIBERAL arts (sorry to again say liberal, but it is the name of the college). If I am now called a Neo-Nazi or wanting to start the next Crusades, so be it.

[jack]

I think it is a demand issue. UCF would not cut programs that are making them money. And Medical City will employ person woth graduate and medical degrees anyway.

By the way, they should change the name to Medical middle of no where or Medical suburb.

[cwetteland]

You've still not given any evidence that you have a clue why these programs were chosen. You've only made guesses and even false assertions based on ideology. With respect to the liberal academic community making liberal decisions ... totally false. The decisions were made by the 13-member board of trustees. While there are a few professors in here, most are businessmen from the area, including bank heads, investment company presidents, developers, aformer member of the Downtown Development Board and so on.

The reasons could be

demand as several have suggested, or

need is better served elsewhere - the article says several area community colleges were eager to pick up thes programs, or

greater savings while affecting the fewest people.

I don't know what the reasoning was and you've posted nothing that indicates you do either. But in looking at the biographies of those that had to make these tough choices, there is nothing to suggest that the reason was anything but economic.

[aent]

If you read the BOT/committee minutes from the meetings when they were trying to choose which majors to cut, they provide a lot of hard facts about these majors, including the fact that they are very expensive, not highly ranked, and in many cases will filled with the worst quality admits UCF has, with almost everyone being in the bottom 25%. Programs like the cardio sciences one (the one relevant to medicine/Lake Nona) really only requires an AA to work in the field, the bachelors is for those who want to teach it and is usually not found at major research universities. It will still be offered in the area has Daytona State College is going to be offering that degree.

[neon9]

This board is about Urban growth and discussing policies that contribute to growth is appropriate. Because of Federalism and the 10th Amendment (sorry if I offended with a Constitution citation), we have 50 different States that can enact their own policies for us as USA citizens can later measure what works and what doesn't. The biggest Blue States with high Tax / Spend/ Regulation like CA, NY, NJ, MI are also the the states doing the worst budget and unemployment wise. The biggest of the Red State with low taxes / regulation, TX, has the best job growth and state budget is in the black. Therefore, we as Floridians who like a growing economy and the Urban Development which follows should have a forum to discuss and analyze what other states are doing to grow.

About UCF, one of the reasons (if not the best reason) students go to college is to have a marketable skill once out of school in order to get a good job. These 5 majors cuts are all in the medical \ technology fields, all in demand (just google them and see hot they rank in pay\demand), and because of Supply/Demand, also high paying. The City \ County Govt sees our regions economic growth potential by attracting (by of all things evil tax cuts) medical employers (like Burhman Institute) and technology firms to Innovation Way \ Research Park. I wanted to point out how insane I see spending money attracting medical / technology employers on one hand, but then having the regions largest university cutting the majors that would best develop potential employees for those industries on the other hand. To deny a liberal influence in academia is just as insane as me denying a conservative influence in the NRA. With this liberal influence, you can see how political \ ideology could clowd the trustees judgement by cutting these 5 non-liberal ideological majors rather than having to cut programs from their college of LIBERAL arts (sorry to again say liberal, but it is the name of the college). If I am now called a Neo-Nazi or wanting to start the next Crusades, so be it.

No one is calling you a 'neo-nazi'. They are calling you misinformed.

The 'invisible hand' has said that it's cheaper to provide degrees in liberal arts and that's what people are paying for. If you want central planning of schools and economic development, well then you might just be a liberal.

[JRS1]

^^

I have to agree with the original comment regarding cutting practical majors and leaving the liberal arts degrees. That is a bunch of bull, especially for a school that made its name in the computer sciences and related majors. Especially at a time when UCF sits in a great position to benefit from all of the entities it is currently affiliating with ala Lake Nona et al. I know it has to do with $$$, but it sucks.

If UCF was a private school, maybe it would be different.

They just need to get good in football like UF and have the athletic dept. donate $$$ to the rest of the school. Brighthouse Stadium and the Convocation Center are a great start.

[prahaboheme]

To suggest that liberal arts majors are not "practical" is rather assuming.

Edited July 29, 2009 by prahaboheme

[JRS1]

^^

I was a poli sci major in undergrad and that degree ain't worth a sh*t. It's what I did in grad school and law school that actually has practical application career-wise. I admit it was fun, but knowing that lots of my friends were business majors, accounting majors, engineering majors, architect majors, etc., the only thing that made me feel at all like I was doing the right thing was knowing that I was planning to continue on after my BA to get my MAURP and law degree. that's just me. what kind of job can you get with a poli sci degree? working for a politician? becoming a political consultant? becoming a teacher? it depends on what your ultimate goal is- for that degree. as for other liberal arts degree, I don't know b/c I didn't take them.

[prahaboheme]

I'll trust my experience is very different from yours.

[JRS1]

^^

we all have different experiences. wait, I just remembered-- Public Administration- I've got a buddy who majored in that.

My main comments are towards political science. However, my cousin was a poli sci major at an Ivy League school, clerked in the Clinton White House, worked for Mayor Daley, became some sort of a consultant, and works for a major airline now. He's got $$$ and a decent life. But he had connections to get the ball rolling; most people don't.

But, with regards to comparing liberal arts to other techinical degrees, I think that it sucks that UCF cut those programs the way they did. If a school like UCF has common borders with C Fla Res. Park & The Quadrangle, is close in proximity to Martin Lockheed and only 30 minutesd rive from the Cape, and they cut technical degrees, then what good are they to those industries? That's the main point here I think.

[cwetteland]

^^

... I think that it sucks that UCF cut those programs the way they did. If a school like UCF has common borders with C Fla Res. Park & The Quadrangle, is close in proximity to Martin Lockheed and only 30 minutes drive from the Cape, and they cut technical degrees, then what good are they to those industries? That's the main point here I think.

You may be right but we aren't privvy to enough info to determine that. It all sounds good on the surface, but that might just be a knee-jerk reaction.

We don't know how many enroll in those degrees.

We don't know if some of those degrees are better served in the community college level. I've heard that the medical degrees cut are better served by CC and Valencia and SCC have said they are ready to take on those programs.

We don't know if other degrees fill those needs just as well. There might be alot of overlap.

We don't know what the effect of laying of thousands of NASA engineers will be totechnology jobs in the area for the next few years.

I'm just saying, the board is mostly community business leaders, and I submit that they are keenly aware of what the industry needs are in the area. I don't think they just threw darts at the dartboard.

Edited July 31, 2009 by cwetteland

[aent]

You may be right but we aren't privvy to enough info to determine that. It all sounds good on the surface, but that might just be a knee-jerk reaction.

We don't know how many enroll in those degrees.

We don't know if some of those degrees are better served in the community college level. I've heard that the medical degrees cut are better served by CC and Valencia and SCC have said they are ready to take on those programs.

We don't know if other degrees fill those needs just as well. There might be alot of overlap.

We don't know what the effect of laying of thousands of NASA engineers will be totechnology jobs in the area for the next few years.

I'm just saying, the board is mostly community business leaders, and I submit that they are keenly aware of what the industry needs are in the area. I don't think they just threw darts at the dartboard.

They did post on the BOT website for the public a complete analysis including statistics about the quality of students of each program, including the cost per student compared to the cost of other programs in the college and the university, the quality of the admits who choose the program, 4 year graduation rate, program availability at other institutions, and other various statistics about all of the programs. Daytona State College is going to offer the lost medical degree program before we stop offering it, there is a reason why no university is offering this program. Its a 2 year program.

[JRS1]

this weekend I went to Lake Nona and saw the Burnham bldg. and UCF Med School.

Let me just say that the UCF Med School complex is really nice. It's big, mind you.

Burnham is big too.

It's just those two buildings there in the middle of nothingness. Oh, those two and an OUC chilled water station.

However, Nemours looks like it fronts 417 just off of the exit. And the Va looks to be going inbetween Nemours and the UCF Med School. The UF building is going in between those two as well.

It's like Sim City out there. Those are the only things off of that exit.

One more thing. There is a rail line that parallels 417 to the north and goes under the exit overpass. THis is probably the spur that goes to the plant from Taft; I just didn't realize how south it was at that point.

I think the VA officially broke ground already in that ceremony. So, the place should fill up pretty quick once that project is underway and the others follow suit.

As an aside, the UCF complex along with Burnham could've been as massive as the State Resource Center behind FAMU in downtown, if built downtown. It would've redeveloped 2-3 square blocks in downtown. If Nemours went there as well as the VA, then a good chunk of the area between OBT and I-4 could've been redeveloped with all of this medical/research development. THrow in an extra exit ramp on 408 and I-4 and that would take care of the extra traffic created by those entities.

It would've been nice, but I think the goal is to build a new city out there right off of 417 (it's very visible, BTW) distinctive in nature which would attract more similar industries to locate there from out of state.

[cwetteland]

...

It would've been nice, but I think the goal is to build a new city out there right off of 417 (it's very visible, BTW) distinctive in nature which would attract more similar industries to locate there from out of state.

I think the biggest part of building where they are building was that Tavistock gave them the land and lots of it. In wooing the state for funds to open a new medical school, free land was a big part of the deal.

Edited August 19, 2009 by cwetteland