Lake Nona - Medical City

[Uncommon]

5 minutes ago, jack said:

Claiming diversity based on skin color is pretty shallow. It makes the assumption that something that is a immutable characteristic determines who you are. 

In other words, if you have a group of people that have a various ethic makeup but they all talk alike, dress alike, earn the same amount, vacation in the same places, how is that diverse. 

How so? Diversity literally means variety and in this context, almost always relates to race, culture, and language as opposed to dress and income. A variety of skin colors is diversity regardless if they all speak the same language, earn the same amount, or dress alike.

[AmIReal]

Another interesting tie between Lake Nona (Tavistock) and Disney.

Per OBJ, "in talks with Tavistock Development Co. to develop an age-restricted community as part of the roughly 27,000-acre Sunbridge development"

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/08/23/florida-orlando-development-sunbridge.html

[Urbo]

4 hours ago, AmIReal said:

Another interesting tie between Lake Nona (Tavistock) and Disney.

Per OBJ, "in talks with Tavistock Development Co. to develop an age-restricted community as part of the roughly 27,000-acre Sunbridge development"

https://www.bizjournals.com/orlando/news/2021/08/23/florida-orlando-development-sunbridge.html

Anxious to see what Disney does here. Seems like they want to compete with the villages. They surely have much space to work with in the Sunbridge area. Celebration 2.0 for the active adults???

[jrs2]

On 8/20/2021 at 6:56 PM, jack said:

Claiming diversity based on skin color is pretty shallow. It makes the assumption that something that is a immutable characteristic determines who you are. 

In other words, if you have a group of people that have a various ethic makeup but they all talk alike, dress alike, earn the same amount, vacation in the same places, how is that diverse. 

thx

[jrs2]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:06 PM, Uncommon said:

How so? Diversity literally means variety and in this context, almost always relates to race, culture, and language as opposed to dress and income. A variety of skin colors is diversity regardless if they all speak the same language, earn the same amount, or dress alike.

Well  by comparison, "liberal" is supposed to mean "abundant."  And, politically, "liberal" is portrayed to mean libertarian, yet the term represents the opposite, rather, a degree of leftism.  "Diversity," is supposed to mean what you stated above.  Rather, it is like "liberal," in that it is a hijacked term being used politically to mean something a little different to either bolster statistics or push an ideology or agenda when it comes to policymaking and land use planning;  

and on this subject, people choose Lake Nona over downtown to escape the "diversity" element of urban blithe and "the hood"... and it's not just whitey...it's an abundance (or liberal assortment) of races and ethnicities, not necessarily liberal politically, but them too...en masse.   

[orlandocity87]

On 8/20/2021 at 7:06 PM, Uncommon said:

How so? Diversity literally means variety and in this context, almost always relates to race, culture, and language as opposed to dress and income. A variety of skin colors is diversity regardless if they all speak the same language, earn the same amount, or dress alike.

Cultural or demographic diversity doesn't necessarily mean economic diversity. Suburbs are becoming culturally more diverse, with more immigrants choosing suburbs over inner cities. That said, a culturally diverse suburb can still be very homogenous if incomes and home prices are all within a narrow range. 

This also ties to how urban a place is. At the risk of beating a dead horse, Lake Nona is not urban. Walkability is low because things are too spread out. Its design is car-dependent because public transit doesn't exist.  Half the proposed Town Center buildings are parking garages. Diversity in housing is extremely limited, with a focus on single-family homes and some "luxury" apartments. Most of the retail and service industry workers, teachers, police officers, and lower-paid medical professionals can't actually afford to live within Lake Nona. 

There's a lot of potential in Lake Nona as things fill in. But without transit and affordable housing, it's a gated suburb without gates. 

[Urbo]

21 minutes ago, orlandocity87 said:

Cultural or demographic diversity doesn't necessarily mean economic diversity. Suburbs are becoming culturally more diverse, with more immigrants choosing suburbs over inner cities. That said, a culturally diverse suburb can still be very homogenous if incomes and home prices are all within a narrow range. 

This also ties to how urban a place is. At the risk of beating a dead horse, Lake Nona is not urban. Walkability is low because things are too spread out. Its design is car-dependent because public transit doesn't exist.  Half the proposed Town Center buildings are parking garages. Diversity in housing is extremely limited, with a focus on single-family homes and some "luxury" apartments. Most of the retail and service industry workers, teachers, police officers, and lower-paid medical professionals can't actually afford to live within Lake Nona. 

There's a lot of potential in Lake Nona as things fill in. But without transit and affordable housing, it's a gated suburb without gates. 

Lake Nona deserves more credit in the walkability department. As I mentioned before, a family can walk to restaurants/bars, hair salon/barber shop, offices/jobs, hospital/medical facilities, performance club, multiple parks, daycare, schools, coffee shops, and more. You cannot do this in 99% of suburbs across America. Also, once the street network of woonerfs are completed in the town center it will arguably one of the best pedestrian experiences in Orlando. There are three parking garages in Lake Nona town center and again, 99% of suburbs that may incorporate a "town center" in their development has large surface parking lots with no parking garages. Lake Nona not only built parking garages to save space, but they made their parking garages into public art. The garages in Lake Nona are more attractive and pleasantly conspicuous than any garage you can find in downtown, you have to give them credit for this. There is a 17 story boutique hotel in Lake Nona with plans to build more buildings up to 30 stories. Again, 99.99% of "suburbs" don't have a 17 story building in their community. Lake Nona has also lured fortune 500 companies to open offices in the community, 99% of suburbs have not and cannot do this. Public transit doesn't exists at the moment but it will get there sometime in the future if the region investment more in the public transit infrastructure. They have already laid the ground work in promoting mobility with the largest AV fleet in the country and the anticipated vertiport. As far as housing, I believe they actually do have a pretty diverse housing stock. You have town homes starting in the high $300ks, 55+ condos for active adults, entry homes for young professionals in the $400ks, move up homes for families in $600k+  all the way up to luxury homes over $1m all in the same neighborhood of Laurete Park (that's much different than driving past the normal subdivision sign selling homes in a very limited price range).  This is not your regular gated suburb. In fact, Lake Nona is bringing another dimension to Orlando by helping diversify its economy and bring more notoriety to the region outside of tourism. Lake Nona isn't perfect, just like downtown isn't perfect. Just as we talk about Lake Nona not having more affordable options to help with diversity, what about the other end of the spectrum, where are the higher end options in downtown to add to its diversity? There should be more high end shopping and entertainment destinations in the core. Diversity goes both ways.

[orlandocity87]

1 hour ago, Urbo said:

Lake Nona deserves more credit in the walkability department. As I mentioned before, a family can walk to restaurants/bars, hair salon/barber shop, offices/jobs, hospital/medical facilities, performance club, multiple parks, daycare, schools, coffee shops, and more. You cannot do this in 99% of suburbs across America. Also, once the street network of woonerfs are completed in the town center it will arguably one of the best pedestrian experiences in Orlando. There are three parking garages in Lake Nona town center and again, 99% of suburbs that may incorporate a "town center" in their development has large surface parking lots with no parking garages. Lake Nona not only built parking garages to save space, but they made their parking garages into public art. The garages in Lake Nona are more attractive and pleasantly conspicuous than any garage you can find in downtown, you have to give them credit for this. There is a 17 story boutique hotel in Lake Nona with plans to build more buildings up to 30 stories. Again, 99.99% of "suburbs" don't have a 17 story building in their community. Lake Nona has also lured fortune 500 companies to open offices in the community, 99% of suburbs have not and cannot do this. Public transit doesn't exists at the moment but it will get there sometime in the future if the region investment more in the public transit infrastructure. They have already laid the ground work in promoting mobility with the largest AV fleet in the country and the anticipated vertiport. As far as housing, I believe they actually do have a pretty diverse housing stock. You have town homes starting in the high $300ks, 55+ condos for active adults, entry homes for young professionals in the $400ks, move up homes for families in $600k+  all the way up to luxury homes over $1m all in the same neighborhood of Laurete Park (that's much different than driving past the normal subdivision sign selling homes in a very limited price range).  This is not your regular gated suburb. In fact, Lake Nona is bringing another dimension to Orlando by helping diversify its economy and bring more notoriety to the region outside of tourism. Lake Nona isn't perfect, just like downtown isn't perfect. Just as we talk about Lake Nona not having more affordable options to help with diversity, what about the other end of the spectrum, where are the higher end options in downtown to add to its diversity? There should be more high end shopping and entertainment destinations in the core. Diversity goes both ways.

All good points and like I said there's a lot of potential. And to give credit where credit is due: parking garages are better than surface lots, the hotel is cool, and obviously the various large medical and educational centers are a great addition to Orlando. But for now and the foreseeable future, Lake Nona has an incredibly high point of entry economically. Hopefully this can change. 

Talking specifically about the urban design, this looks like real urbanism:

The Town Center looks like Waterford Lakes meets Maitland Center. The overall design is already 20-30 years out of date:

This looks like a nice, traditional suburb:

This and the rest of Narcoossee is an abomination that I can't believe the City of Orlando still allows:

And, finally, this is my issue with Lake Nona's connectivity. Original plans (which I can't find better copies of unfortunately) called for light rail stops and a bus circulator. As far as I know, no actual accommodations for rail tracks, dedicated bus lanes, or stations for either were designed or built. Tavistock and the City really dropped the ball on this. 

[Urbo]

20 minutes ago, orlandocity87 said:

All good points and like I said there's a lot of potential. And to give credit where credit is due: parking garages are better than surface lots, the hotel is cool, and obviously the various large medical and educational centers are a great addition to Orlando. But for now and the foreseeable future, Lake Nona has an incredibly high point of entry economically. Hopefully this can change. 

Talking specifically about the urban design, this looks like real urbanism:

The Town Center looks like Waterford Lakes meets Maitland Center. The overall design is already 20-30 years out of date:

This looks like a nice, traditional suburb:

This and the rest of Narcoossee is an abomination that I can't believe the City of Orlando still allows:

And, finally, this is my issue with Lake Nona's connectivity. Original plans (which I can't find better copies of unfortunately) called for light rail stops and a bus circulator. As far as I know, no actual accommodations for rail tracks, dedicated bus lanes, or stations for either were designed or built. Tavistock and the City really dropped the ball on this. 

Yes trust and believe I don't think Lake Nona is the prototype development but I do think its great considering what type of development central Florida is accustom to outside the city center. And I totally agree that narcoossee is a let down. But who knows, in 15 or 20 years that area could go through sprawl repair and we can see that shopping center turn into a mixed use development.

The urban district is by far the most exciting area of lake nona and will be main focus of urbanism. The town center is limited to lower height restricts and cannot include any residential therefore it cannot be as urban as one would desire it to be.

There is a plan for "Future Mobility Hub" (whatever that means) close to the hotel. With brightline next door at the airport, and the deep pockets on Joe Lewis, im pretty sure if there were ever a push in the region to expand rail service, Lake Nona would be a top priority. I think tavistock understands if they want to continue to lure the top of the top companies they have to somehow incorporate more transit.

Below is a more updated plan for the town center.. This plans includes the greenlink cutting through the town center. I do like the idea of the greenlink extending from the future urban district via the signature bridge over Lake Nona Blvd into the town center, but the below plan seems concentrate retail and entertainment in the middle of the town center and create room for larger corporate offices at the peripherals. I agree that the street network is lacking and this could have a much more urban feel.

 

As you can see below, it seems like they consolidated the previous block structure into superblocks.  They could have done a better job at providing a more gridded street network but I do still have faith the the streetscape will be very appealing and pedestrian oriented. With the curbless streets, large sidewalks and multi-trails this will be a great pedestrian experience. . Take a look at some of the sections below.

 

 

 

Nevertheless, its still an exciting project. The renderings below still give Lake Nona (central Lake Nona) a very urban feel. It could be much better but its still great for Orlando.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[orlandocity87]

Cool plans and renderings, thanks for sharing.

Where in Lake Nona are the last two? They almost remind me more of Neo City.

[Urbo]

34 minutes ago, orlandocity87 said:

Cool plans and renderings, thanks for sharing.

Where in Lake Nona are the last two? They almost remind me more of Neo City.

The last two are the Urban District/Greenlink (image below shows exact location) . Also, check out the link below for a fly-through of what the greenlink and urban district could look like. Loads of potential and if this gets executed I think many people will change their stance on Lake Nona being urban.

https://www.halvr.com/greenlink

 

 

 

 

[spenser1058]

I’m going to break it down when I’m in Orlando again by precincts, but it’s probably telling Lake Nona is in the most conservative (aka most Republican) council district…

[aent]

13 minutes ago, Urbo said:

The last two are the Urban District/Greenlink (image below shows exact location) . Also, check out the link below for a fly-through of what the greenlink and urban district could look like. Loads of potential and if this gets executed I think many people will change their stance on Lake Nona being urban.

https://www.halvr.com/greenlink

 

 

 

 

Interesting! Here's a link more about Lake Nona Greenlink since this was the first I heard of it:

https://www.lakenona.com/articles/lake-nonas-greenlink-reinvents-resident-recreation-and-mobility/

 

[spenser1058]

Here’s another example of, ummmm, diversity in the district. There are two candidates in the District 1 race. Both are, ahem, Republicans. One is a member of the real estate industrial complex and the other is a retired policeman.

Again, I haven’t looked by precinct and maybe Lake Nona Town Center is a bastion of progressivism. However, if this were an election in Atlanta, it looks a lot more like one outside the Perimeter than Virginia-Highland/Morningside (let alone Midtown).

[aent]

1 minute ago, spenser1058 said:

Here’s another example of, ummmm, diversity in the district. There are two candidates in the District 1 race. Both are, ahem, Republicans. One is a member of the real estate industrial complex and the other is a retired policeman.

Again, I haven’t looked by precinct and maybe Lake Nona Town Center is a bastion of progressivism. However, if this were an election in Atlanta, it looks a lot more like one outside the Perimeter than Virginia-Highland/Morningside (let alone Midtown).

I know! Isn't it absolutely great to have a representative in an upcoming urban area with not exactly the same views as every other one? A little diversity of ideas? I'm glad Lake Nona has brought some diversity in areas where most other cities struggle.

[jrs2]

14 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

I’m going to break it down when I’m in Orlando again by precincts, but it’s probably telling Lake Nona is in the most conservative (aka most Republican) council district…

...except for the people living in those micro apartments...because no nature loving, gun toting, bass fishing, big government hatin', Blake Shelton loving, flag waving, pig roasting, Taliban hatin', cow pie tossing, chew spittin' (he said "tossing") Nascar loving, Bible thumping, sick deer population cleansing, armed forces loving, Trump necktie wearing, big truck drivin', conservative would live there!  that would just be un-American (and the truck wouldn't fit in the garage (or the extra freezer for venison).

you see...I can see both sides...

[spenser1058]

2 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

...except for the people living in those micro apartments...because no nature loving, gun toting, bass fishing, big government hatin', Blake Shelton loving, flag waving, pig roasting, Taliban hatin', cow pie tossing, chew spittin' (he said "tossing") Nascar loving, Bible thumping, sick deer population cleansing, armed forces loving, Trump necktie wearing, big truck drivin', conservative would live there!  that would just be un-American (and the truck wouldn't fit in the garage (or the extra freezer for venison).

you see...I can see both sides...

Did I mention both candidates are white males (I’ll go out on a limb here and guess both are straight since their candidate info doesn’t indicate otherwise but please correct me if I’m wrong). Oh, the diversity!

5 minutes ago, jrs2 said:

...except for the people living in those micro apartments...because no nature loving, gun toting, bass fishing, big government hatin', Blake Shelton loving, flag waving, pig roasting, Taliban hatin', cow pie tossing, chew spittin' (he said "tossing") Nascar loving, Bible thumping, sick deer population cleansing, armed forces loving, Trump necktie wearing, big truck drivin', conservative would live there!  that would just be un-American (and the truck wouldn't fit in the garage (or the extra freezer for venison).

you see...I can see both sides...

Would those folks live in a micro apartment? Just curious…

[Urbo]

Couldn’t one make the same argument from the opposite side about the core of the city? Is downtown just as welcoming to heterosexual, right leaning, upper-class Christians? Does downtown cater to high end and luxury consumers? Diversity goes both ways. People naturally want to be around other like minded individuals, and there is nothing wrong with that. Historically the problem has been forcing people to live in on side of town versus the other. But people have the freedom to live anywhere they want. And if people of like minds naturally concentrate in one small area of town out of their free will, what is so wrong about that? 

[spenser1058]

10 minutes ago, Urbo said:

Couldn’t one make the same argument from the opposite side about the core of the city? Is downtown just as welcoming to heterosexual, right leaning, upper-class Christians? Does downtown cater to high end and luxury consumers? Diversity goes both ways. People naturally want to be around other like minded individuals, and there is nothing wrong with that. Historically the problem has been forcing people to live in on side of town versus the other. But people have the freedom to live anywhere they want. And if people of like minds naturally concentrate in one small area of town out of their free will, what is so wrong about that? 

Given all the right-wing churches downtown (and their schools), apparently so. You do have a point, however, especially in today’s America. People self-select their neighborhoods now based on their politics (it’s yet another reason gerrymandering has become so easy).

My point is simply that so many folks have been describing Lake Nona as this great example of diversity. In fact, it’s like most other newer, outer suburbs, or so it appears with just the cursory glance I’ve taken. When I get down to the precinct level (and maybe even the block level if my friend who does psychographics for a living can run some numbers for me), we’ll probably see something similar.

Edited August 25, 2021 by spenser1058

[jrs2]

13 minutes ago, Urbo said:

Couldn’t one make the same argument from the opposite side about the core of the city? Is downtown just as welcoming to heterosexual, right leaning, upper-class Christians? Does downtown cater to high end and luxury consumers? Diversity goes both ways. People naturally want to be around other like minded individuals, and there is nothing wrong with that. Historically the problem has been forcing people to live in on side of town versus the other. But people have the freedom to live anywhere they want. And if people of like minds naturally concentrate in one small area of town out of their free will, what is so wrong about that? 

well stated!   bravo! 

35 minutes ago, spenser1058 said:

Would those folks live in a micro apartment? Just curious…

oh, I don't think so...they can't fit their stuff in them...not there or in those Tiny Houses they have on those reality shows that Millennials seems to be so excited about living in..

[spenser1058]

What I find interesting is that, as a downtown dweller, I happily embrace the demographics of the neighborhoods where I live. In fact, I choose them for that (among other things - it’s why I chose downtown Orlando instead of WG way back when - it’s come a long way but still no rainbow flags on Plant St. yet)

What I am amazed by is that we have a pretty good idea about the demographics and psychographics of Nona just like downtown. If that’s what you gravitate toward, embrace it. No need to obfuscate. Embrace what you believe in. 

[IAmFloridaBorn]

We just have to stop referring to Lake Nona as urban and all is well. 

Heck I'd even argue that's it's not medical city as originally planned. 

Edited August 25, 2021 by IAmFloridaBorn

[Urbo]

33 minutes ago, IAmFloridaBorn said:

We just have to stop referring to Lake Nona as urban and all is well. 

Heck I'd even argue that's it's not medical city as originally planned. 

nothing comes out as originally planned, but doesn't mean it lacks value. Lake Nona will be one of the largest life science clusters in the southeast. what is the gripe with this development that is nationally acclaimed by many others except the own residents of Orlando? You cannot name 5 other developments currently under construction bringing more value to the city than Lake Nona. Do you consider any development outside the city center urban? Or does a place have to be a pre-war neighborhood to be considered urban? im very curious...

[IAmFloridaBorn]

2 minutes ago, Urbo said:

nothing comes out as originally planned, but doesn't mean it lacks value. Lake Nona will be one of the largest life science clusters in the southeast. what is the gripe with this development that is nationally acclaimed by many others except the own residents of Orlando? You cannot name 5 other developments currently under construction bringing more value to the city than Lake Nona. Do you consider any development outside the city center urban? Or does a place have to be a pre-war neighborhood to be considered urban? im very curious...

Downtown Orlando is not even Urban in my opinion. It's the closest thing to it in Central Florida but that's it. Everything else in Central Florida is suburban and will be so until this region decides to build different. Lake Nona was that opportunity and they chose to keep it suburban which it is. I just can't understand why it's referred to as urban. The definition of urban is subjective so I'll likely never wrap my head around ones reasonings for referring to such place as urban. 

 

I'd argue From Florida Hospital to Orlando Health and all in between including EA is bringing more value to Orlando than Lake Nona. Although Lake Nona is Orlando city limits so it doesn't matter at the end of the day honestly. 

The conversation comes down to ones liking of the style of how things are being built which you and I likely aren't going to see eye to eye on. 

[spenser1058]

I’m reading a rather large bio of Martin Andersen, who is more responsible than just about anyone for Orlando becoming a city and how it looks, both good and bad (some of you will be glad to know he wanted OCCC downtown, as well as DPCPA, although Loch Haven mostly exists in the first place because of him).

I look forward to reading in a couple of decades about a Tampa billionaire who embraced his adopted city and spent a fortune downtown while a UK billionaire embraced the Orlando ‘burbs and spent a fortune there. History will decide who made the better decision and whether those decisions could have been influenced.

Meanwhile, “Martin Andersen: Editor, Publisher, Galley Boy” by Ormund Powers is a fascinating read about the Orlando he believed in and is available from OCLS.

Edited August 25, 2021 by spenser1058