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scm

The End of White Flight

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For much of the 20th century, the proportion of whites shrank in most U.S. cities. In recent years the decline has slowed considerably -- and in some significant cases has reversed. Between 2000 and 2006, eight of the 50 largest cities, including Boston, Seattle and San Francisco, saw the proportion of whites increase, according to Census figures. The previous decade, only three cities saw increases.

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I'm not sure what your point is. First, as for black population: the change is very low. Even so, is this a concern for you? Second, the area is almost exactly in line with the national average in your cited numbers. (What's the source, by the way?) The numbers in Va. are skewed (in a good way) by NoVa. The fact that we don't compare to an area that's one of the highest in naitonal income hardly means we're a bunch of idiots or that we have "depressed" wages. Maybe you should leave this type of reporting for our poor-of-an-excuse newspaper.

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Norfolk is not one of those cities -- blacks as a percentage of the population increased from 44.1% in 2000 to 45.6% in 2004. But it is interesting to see what all of you think -- will Norfolk's black population shrink in the future? (entire article here)

Other interesting stat while I was looking this up:

post-11351-1216767552_thumb.jpg

The degree gap is largely responsible for the depressed wages here -- not mean old people with their hobnailed boots on the necks of the oppressed millenials. And it isn't just Norfolk -- it is the entire MSA, which is almost 20% below the state for four year degrees or higher. Brain power jobs have to be created here before you will see meaningful change in many of the things all of you rant about -- wages, nightlife, heck, even sports teams. Too many jobs that only require HS diplomas for this to be anything more than a blue collar area.

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I think there are differences in the base mentality of people. I think an area has it, or it doesn't.

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I'm not sure what your point is. First, as for black population: the change is very low. Even so, is this a concern for you?

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I'm guessing you didn't read the article, and saw how the culture clashes have been problems in the cities where it happend. Those clashes occured where white population went up. Didn't happen in Norfolk, but will it happen in the future? Whether it is a "concern" to me is really irrelevant. The issue is, will the demographics in Norfolk change, potentially causing problems, as it has in other cites across the country?

As far as your questioning the degree stats, they came from Norfolk Development's web site. And you can try to spin them any way you want -- first, the comparison is to the state as a whole, all 5 million, not just NoVa. Second, Norfolk's gap with the national numbers isn't just a "few points" -- the percentage of folks holding a four year degree or higher is 17% lower than the national average. Everyone recognizes the lower wages in HR -- this is a graphic example of why it exists.

The fact that you are seemingly happy with being within a few points of "average" is indicative of a deep mind set here. The folks in VB don't want it to be compared to Charlotte, or Austin, or Durham -- they want it compared to Portsmouth. We now are in a knowledge based economy, and a city can't be leading edge without a leading edge workforce.

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If I had a dollar for every person in this area who thinks this way, I'd be a millionaire. The laughable thing is that everyone around here thinks this applies to everyone but themselves. Guess what? Somebody's gotta be wrong. It's kind of like people who think everyone else is a shi--- driver: except them. The only thing is everyuone else thinks the same way.

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It is really interesting to see how the topic has shifted from the tag "End of White Flight" to a discourse on education in Hampton Roads.

As I am precisely half-way through my undergraduate experience at a local University, I might be able to shed some light on the problems of education in Hampton Roads (and thus the low wages, "brain drain" phenomena, etc.).

I will take my High School as a chief example, even if not wholly representative. When you look at the highest-scoring, best-performing students from Tabb High (which does NOT include myself - I didn't start trying/performing 'til college), most of them went to UVA or William and Mary, some VT and JMU. The ones who went to those four are probably a 50-50 split between intending on remaining in Hampton Roads/Virginia and/or desperate to get out. Of those same students, a majority are looking at graduate or professional degrees (big bucks) and will be seeking such degrees at schools like Ohio State, Michigan, NYU, Georgetown, and others. These people will therefore be remaining in those regions because the Northeast/Megalopolis and the Midwest offer more-competitive pay, and there are a number of big research universities in those areas as well (several of my HS friends want to be professors / researchers, and frankly there aren't many viable options in HR, except perhaps ODU as a result of its rapid expansions: W+M and CNU [by faculty/student size] are relatively stagnant and will not be 'growing' in any physical sense).

Among a few of the truly stand-out students from Tabb, they went to Georgetown, Pepperdine, MIT, Columbia, Princeton, BU, and Olin for undergrad. And (I am thinking of 10-15 students in particular from the class of 2005 through class of 2008) they have no intentions of coming back. Plenty of wonderful, driven students come out of HR schools, they just flee to the Northeast or West because that's where the greater opportunities in their prospective career fields are (and greater opportunities to make money). That's part of why I will be going up to NYC in the Spring -- I can make inroads in my prospective career / dual-enroll in SIPA (CU's graduate school for International/Public Affairs). That's where my greatest career opportunities ultimately are, and that is probably where I will live the majority of my adult life, if not overseas.

Back to the HS example - many extremely intelligent students from my HS will wind up in HR as a result of joining the military; many have already enlisted and a good half-dozen of my closest friends plan to become officers (are in VT's Corps or at USMA) and hope to one day settle back in HR for their retirements (right-on for planning ahead). The military is in a way a blessing and a curse -- it keeps our regional economy relatively stable in hard times, but its population is constantly in flux and prevents a lot of military brats from growing up in one community, at one high school. Therefore, these students leave back to wherever they consider "home," or feel no attachment to HR and leave it for some place new. It's really complex to think about it, but all these factors are all inter-related. HR has great potential - and I have loved living here from 1993-1995, then 2000-today... but for college/grad/law students, it's not really the most economically-viable opportunity out there. And so, we leave.

For those of my graduating class (2006) who are planning to stay, I feel confident enough to say that many of the non-military career-aspiring are un-ambitious. They are, to take scm's comments a step further, completely content with "being average." They want to get their degree, come back to Tabb, and work a 9-5 until they die. I don't know if that is the case with a lot of area students who are drawn back to HR -- perhaps many are TRULY exceptional, brilliant, capable, and seek to make many positive changes for our region (I assume many UP forumers are probably in this category) -- but it seems much easier to me for the ambitious HR youth to just flee to areas where they will actually be met with innovation and excitement. Innovation and creativity seem to be at a premium not just in the culture of HR, but even at the universities (when you have established professors at CNU and W+M urging you to transfer out of the area, there's a problem).

I always ramble - my apologies. Kinda incoherent. But I think there are many valid points that need to be addressed by local leaders in education.

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It is really interesting to see how the topic has shifted from the tag "End of White Flight" to a discourse on education in Hampton Roads.

As I am precisely half-way through my undergraduate experience at a local University, I might be able to shed some light on the problems of education in Hampton Roads (and thus the low wages, "brain drain" phenomena, etc.).

I will take my High School as a chief example, even if not wholly representative. When you look at the highest-scoring, best-performing students from Tabb High (which does NOT include myself - I didn't start trying/performing 'til college), most of them went to UVA or William and Mary, some VT and JMU. The ones who went to those four are probably a 50-50 split between intending on remaining in Hampton Roads/Virginia and/or desperate to get out. Of those same students, a majority are looking at graduate or professional degrees (big bucks) and will be seeking such degrees at schools like Ohio State, Michigan, NYU, Georgetown, and others. These people will therefore be remaining in those regions because the Northeast/Megalopolis and the Midwest offer more-competitive pay, and there are a number of big research universities in those areas as well (several of my HS friends want to be professors / researchers, and frankly there aren't many viable options in HR, except perhaps ODU as a result of its rapid expansions: W+M and CNU [by faculty/student size] are relatively stagnant and will not be 'growing' in any physical sense).

Among a few of the truly stand-out students from Tabb, they went to Georgetown, Pepperdine, MIT, Columbia, Princeton, BU, and Olin for undergrad. And (I am thinking of 10-15 students in particular from the class of 2005 through class of 2008) they have no intentions of coming back. Plenty of wonderful, driven students come out of HR schools, they just flee to the Northeast or West because that's where the greater opportunities in their prospective career fields are (and greater opportunities to make money). That's part of why I will be going up to NYC in the Spring -- I can make inroads in my prospective career / dual-enroll in SIPA (CU's graduate school for International/Public Affairs). That's where my greatest career opportunities ultimately are, and that is probably where I will live the majority of my adult life, if not overseas.

Back to the HS example - many extremely intelligent students from my HS will wind up in HR as a result of joining the military; many have already enlisted and a good half-dozen of my closest friends plan to become officers (are in VT's Corps or at USMA) and hope to one day settle back in HR for their retirements (right-on for planning ahead). The military is in a way a blessing and a curse -- it keeps our regional economy relatively stable in hard times, but its population is constantly in flux and prevents a lot of military brats from growing up in one community, at one high school. Therefore, these students leave back to wherever they consider "home," or feel no attachment to HR and leave it for some place new. It's really complex to think about it, but all these factors are all inter-related. HR has great potential - and I have loved living here from 1993-1995, then 2000-today... but for college/grad/law students, it's not really the most economically-viable opportunity out there. And so, we leave.

For those of my graduating class (2006) who are planning to stay, I feel confident enough to say that many of the non-military career-aspiring are un-ambitious. They are, to take scm's comments a step further, completely content with "being average." They want to get their degree, come back to Tabb, and work a 9-5 until they die. I don't know if that is the case with a lot of area students who are drawn back to HR -- perhaps many are TRULY exceptional, brilliant, capable, and seek to make many positive changes for our region (I assume many UP forumers are probably in this category) -- but it seems much easier to me for the ambitious HR youth to just flee to areas where they will actually be met with innovation and excitement. Innovation and creativity seem to be at a premium not just in the culture of HR, but even at the universities (when you have established professors at CNU and W+M urging you to transfer out of the area, there's a problem).

I always ramble - my apologies. Kinda incoherent. But I think there are many valid points that need to be addressed by local leaders in education.

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First of all you have a lot of cars with Jesus crap stuck on them. Fish, license plates. In the end, you can generally associate belief in supernatural (religion) with low intelligence. CBN, tons of stupid churches... There I said it.

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Among a few of the truly stand-out students from Tabb, they went to Georgetown, Pepperdine, MIT, Columbia, Princeton, BU, and Olin for undergrad. And (I am thinking of 10-15 students in particular from the class of 2005 through class of 2008) they have no intentions of coming back. Plenty of wonderful, driven students come out of HR schools, they just flee to the Northeast or West because that's where the greater opportunities in their prospective career fields are (and greater opportunities to make money). That's part of why I will be going up to NYC in the Spring -- I can make inroads in my prospective career / dual-enroll in SIPA (CU's graduate school for International/Public Affairs). That's where my greatest career opportunities ultimately are, and that is probably where I will live the majority of my adult life, if not overseas.

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:ermm: Oh good Lord *smacks forehead*, i'm not even sure what to do with this thread. In the span of 11 posts we've gone from the end of white flight, to education, to religious beliefs and the overall intelligence quotient in Hampton Roads. To say this all qualifies as off-topic is an understatement. In deference to the original poster, lets try to refocus this on the original argument. Namely the demographic shift in Norfolk and the education gap. Stay away from the religious stuff though (you know who you are). That can go no where good and really has nothing at all to do with this forum. P.S. If you do wish to have a discussion about religion please carry it to the main coffee house forum, and take your chances there. muahaha devil.gif

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Hello...I am new here and I have been reading for some time now....I felt compelled to say something after reading this thread. I am an art teacher in a local school system and I love architechture. I have lived here (Newport News and York County) since I was two. I wanted to say that even though this area is no New York, Chicago, DC etc., it is a great place and it is what you make it....I believe we have a great education system here. Sure, it may not be MIT or Harvard, but this area does produce great minds and high achievers. CNU, ODU, William and Mary, Hampton U....If they choose to go eleswhere, then that is their problem. We have a ways to go as a united metropoltian area, but we are making strides....I know for me I had a blast playing golf today in Williamsburg, and even though I am not (tired from the golf), I love the idea that I could catch a show in Downtown, or walk the MANY beaches we have, or go to a club in ANY of the 7 cities....so much to do and so much too appreciate. Enjoy what we have.....

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I'll speak for me:

I love the area, born and raised. I can't speak for the population of urbaneers who are still in college or high school, but for us young professionals (young post grads) its hard to make a living a decent living. The general idea I get from this area is: "Wait your turn" or "your asking for too much" or "blah blah blah blah". I will not disclose my employer but let me give you an example of a real life incident that happen to me.

I've been working with this company for 4 and half years, when I graduated I started off as local instructor teaching at a technical college here in HR. I wanted to move to a concrete position in my field so I applied to the company I am at now. Initially (true story), they did not call me back. The job required you to list your salary requirements and I did (which I thought was pretty damn low). Finally, I got fed up and contacted the company and asked a higher up if they were willing to take me on as an unpaid intern. Ha, I received a called back from that.....but she was nice enough to say and I quote "Hey, I was looking at your resume and they have a new position open that I think you should apply for" and I kindly responded "this was the position I originally tried to apply for the HR department did not call me back". She said, well let me make a few calls, I kid you not I received a call from the HR department in like 20 minutes. After the lady got my information, I asked her "why did I not receive a call back when I applied for the position three times before", she responded "You were asking too much for the position". I said "well in your announcement, you asked for my requirements, if you had a range that you were only offering, why did you not listed that instead because I was willing to take the job, I just wanted to get my feet wet and move from instructing". She responded "I can't answer that". Needless to say, I was hired and for what the position entailed, I clean the floor with the company. In a year's a time, I had changed the departments outlook and capabilities in my short stay and never did one job function I was hired for; which was cool for me because I got to deal with the big wigs, servers and multi-million dollar information systems. I was like a virgin in the playboy mansion...So after a year, I asked my director if it was possible to get me a little more money because I did not think it was fair pay for what I was doing. He asked me how much I was making and I told him and he said "THAT'S IT? Sure we can get you a little more" After about a month or so, he came back with like a 7 thousand increase....I was disappointed and he asked me well, what did you expect to be make? I told him and he said and I quote "How old are you? I responded, He said they will not let me pay you kind of money.....Don't get me wrong, I think your worth it and I know you can get more on the outside, but they are not going to let me pay you that kind of money........" I was in awe, but what could I do...I had little options at the time. So another year goes by and my directors right hand man had got fed up and left (what I hear through the great vine, he was pissed at me because he was told not to supervise me, along with me unintentionally out shinning him). Perfect opportunity for me to get a position that I deserve and basically would be a cake walk because of my skill set. I applied for the job, my office was adjacent to the director's office, he acted like he NEVER received my resume..not so much as a "hey, thanks for submitting your resume". So after a week and a half I went to him and was like "you did receive my resume" he responded "yes, and I'm glad you applied. I'm not saying that you will get the job but it does show me your commit to what your doing". I shook it off because I knew that was code words for "your not getting it". I personally did not mind, despite the crap I was told later. They, this guy that I knew through common interaction in another department, an I.T. department applied for the position in an information systems department. He was your standard, retired navy chief, who had been on the market for about a year and had received a supervisor position within the last years because of restructuring. He was an novel guy, we worked in a pure Microsoft network...This guy had no experience running any information system, no experience with hard networks, no experience in programming, no experience in doing any of the unique things we put out. The only reason I though initially I did not receive the job in the beginning was because I did not have an extensive experience with one particular information system (which would have been a cake walk), so who was I to get mad at a person who did know that (which was about 40 percent of the operation). Ha, turns out he had less experience with it than me. Mind you, this is an information system backed by a database (all information systems are), so you have to remember, Information system, DB's, I'm the resident pro........So after all of this went down and my director made the decision, he called me in his room (hell I thought I was in trouble, he hardly ever did that, lol) he politely told me that he had hired this other gentlemen (35 years older than me). He told me he knew how talented I was and how much I have given to the department, but he wanted someone who had experience managing people, not a person who knew everything about everything (me).............He said, he's a retired navy chief, he has experience managing people and that's what he needed (I wont even get into his right hand man's functions). I ideally, I'm ok with being the outstanding incredible employee that every runs to, if your paying me. Nope, not going to pay you for what you know and can do, or your degree, I'm going to pay you this.....He did say one thing...he said "well, maybe you will learn something from him", and I actually took that in stride and say, heck maybe I will.....HELLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL NO, this clown didn't know anything about nothing. If it wasn't fixing a cpu you (which we did not do), he could not help anyone. He would fall asleep in meeting (I FREAKIN KID YOU NOT), big meetings......He was constantly getting screamed on by our customer based but he could not be touched because of the director. I eventually took another position within the department so I did not fall under that clown, but eventually, our department split from his. we took another one of his workers and you know what happen? I was replaced by 3 people and the other person who came over was replaced by 2. So two people were doing the jobs of 5 people but now, we were asked to do their jobs as well because they did not have the experience or background to perform. So me and my other co worker are stuck with a better position, these same responsibilities, their responsibilities (remember, we are in a different department all together) and our new management suck a******and they do not know any better so we are stuck dead in the middle........Now that's just my personal experience as it relates to me and I gave you guys the very very minimum...If that's the reflection of how young professionals are treated in HR, what are we expected to do? Now you may asked, why didn't I change companies? What I'm getting paid now is basically unheard of and it isn't great!!!!! I would literally start back where I was in the beginning making barely 28 grand a year. If you notice on a lot of job announcements in the area, they ask you to list your salary requirements... vs what they will actually pay. Up to 9 months ago, my current position was one in 4 in the entire HR.....

Mind you, I have a 4 year degree in Information systems and decision sciences....

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My friends.

Yea I cite my friends, because it's what I see.

One of them was working for a company, and making around $35K I think. I met this other guy in an IRC chat room, and we got to talking. He invited me to join his company but I declined (I was a bit nervous about my skillset, and I think I had just started working at NASA, making, oh, $35K). Well, friends of mine jumped on the opportunity, and the guy I met in IRC sold his company to eBay. With that, a number of friends went to the west coast, where eBay was happy to pay $80K + $20K signing bonus. One friend recently moved back, and I'm pretty sure he is making close to double that now, in HR. The key is working for a company outside of Hampton Roads, because they aren't expecting low salaries. He moved back about 5 months ago, but it eyeballing Raleigh and Washington DC. He knows that if he decides to leave the job, there isn't much else to go to here locally.

I do okay. I think personally I'm in the top 20% of households or something. I'm not always complaining for myself. I can pay my rent and pack away a chunk of money in the bank (rapidly decreasing amount, with the way expenses are going nuts.) But I know that at any time the company I work for (small startup) could go away (as all startups, I don't know of any real danger but...). I know that I've been through the "cool" places and they just weren't great. Maybe work isn't supposed to be. I still to this day learn more doing side projects than what I do at work.

The majority of my friends are in the tech industry, on the higher end. Programming, network / system administration (think big environments, UNIX, SANs, etc), and security (think writing exploits for software, reverse engineering malware, and white hat hacking).

A friend of ours that just graduated Virginia Tech was trying to find a job. He got a starting offer in 315 (Syracuse) for more than many folks with experience get in 757. Looked up the cost of living differences, 315 is cheaper. He ended up going to work for Cisco somewhere else though. Not Hampton Roads.

I'll speak for me:

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One of the things that I have notice in Hampton Roads is that most of the population looks down on our own institutions that are not ODU. ODU is not a major reasearch University, it does not hold the same prestige as VT, UVA, UNC, NCst, Duke. ODU is a good school but it is not the only school and this area does not have a large number of college graduates. NSU, Hampton, William & Mary, Regent and CNU have all produced outstanding graduates. I completed my undergrad and grad degrees from NSU and found that I could recieve more respect for my NSU degrees outside of Hampton Roads. I love this area and would like to stay but the pay and opportunities for advancement are just so much better elsewhere.

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One of the things that I have notice in Hampton Roads is that most of the population looks down on our own institutions that are not ODU. ODU is not a major reasearch University, it does not hold the same prestige as VT, UVA, UNC, NCst, Duke. ODU is a good school but it is not the only school and this area does not have a large number of college graduates. NSU, Hampton, William & Mary, Regent and CNU have all produced outstanding graduates. I completed my undergrad and grad degrees from NSU and found that I could recieve more respect for my NSU degrees outside of Hampton Roads. I love this area and would like to stay but the pay and opportunities for advancement are just so much better elsewhere.

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I have a friend at Columbia, actually Barnard. Tuition is crazy expensive. As would be expected for two people with the same major, you and I have similar outlooks on the future. To tie this in with the post's original intent... I'm white and I'm probably going to leave. :lol:

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Of the Universities in Hampton Roads which does not offer a Doctorate? ODU, NSU, William&Mary, and Hampton all offer Doctorates.

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Of the Universities in Hampton Roads which does not offer a Doctorate? ODU, NSU, William&Mary, and Hampton all offer Doctorates.

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Of all the local schools, wouldn't Regent University be considered the worst?

On the West Coast, companies tend to care more about skills over degrees. This can make for a happier workplace.

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Brain drain is certainly a big problem for HR. Actually everybody-drain is. Lots of people who I graduated high school with did anything they could to leave. Some went to college (but being the product of a Portsmouth public high school, that wasn't an option for very many). Many people went into the military. Lots of people stuck around. They still live in Portsmouth or have moved to greener pastures in Chesapeake, Suffolk or even Newport News. I looked into something on facebook. Every female on my facebook list who I graduated high school with and who stayed in Hampton Roads has at least two children already (I'm 25, btw. not very old yet). A couple of them have 4 children already!

I left HR to go to college. I went to JMU and was the only one from my high school there, while kids from NOVA, Richmond, VB had 20 or 30 of their h.s. classmates around. I think there was a girl from another Portsmouth high school on campus though. According to students from NOVA, NJ, Philly, etc. I was the farm kid because who ever heard of a place called Portsmouth, VA? When I said I was from Portsmouth, kids asked, "New Hampshire?" So it was in college when I started telling people "I'm from Norfolk." And even that was challenging.

I left VA to go to grad school, and when I told kids at Rutgers that I was from Virginia, I got the response, "Oh I know someone from Annandale," or "I just love Alexandria." "Norfolk? How close is that to Fairfax?" Maybe if I pronounced it "Nor Foke" it would've made more sense to some people.

Anyway, I like Hampton Roads. I considered coming back to HR after grad school, but it would be a dead-end move for me. The pay cut would be HUGE. Someone sent me some job announcements. The jobs were not very interesting and the pay was a joke compared to pay in other areas. The firms in my industry really aren't present in HR. There are only 2 or 3 firms who have small field offices there, so not many options if I ever want to switch companies. For me, and I'm sure for many others, coming back to HR is not in their best interest. Maybe when I retire...

I'm going to happy hour to catch up with someone I went to high school with, who I recently found out has been living in New York for 3 years (and she's not pregnant!). It'll be interesting to hear her story.

What can HR do to stop the drain? ODU and CNU are not in the same league as Penn and Columbia yet, but allowing those institutions to blossom can only do good things for the region. Both universities are very young (as universities go), so it will still take a long time for both of them to continue to develop. The region's technology incubator is a great idea, encouraging young geniuses in the area to cultivate their businesses here.

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What can HR do to stop the drain? ODU and CNU are not in the same league as Penn and Columbia yet, but allowing those institutions to blossom can only do good things for the region. Both universities are very young (as universities go), so it will still take a long time for both of them to continue to develop. The region's technology incubator is a great idea, encouraging young geniuses in the area to cultivate their businesses here.

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I'm not sure of your point. Your rambling thoughts are more than a bit confusing. First, just why are you comparing ODU and CNU to Ivy League schools? I mean, you can make the same argument about JMU. Hardly Ivy League. On the other hand, HR also has William and Mary, which is consistently ranked one of the best universities in the nation: i.e., on the same plane as UVA.

As for the so-called "brain drain," I'm not buying it. Maybe that's what the Pilot and Portfolio magazine want you to believe, but the success of business people in this area is as impressive as any other area our size. Maybe you need to pick up a copy of the ODU Alumni magazine some time, to see what I'm talking about. Obviously, you know all the successful people from this area, so I won't bother arguing about all the people you know who left. Uh, ok.

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Comparing ODU and CNU to Ivy League schools is a valid comparison if you're trying to make the argument that Hampton Roads is "just as innovative."

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