Central Prison

[avery]

The central prison is an eye sore. Why not replace it. Just because a building is old does not necessarily mean it has good character. I'm a huge proponent of historic preservation, but not in this case.

Maybe Hatem Properties can retrofit the structure and prison cells into studio apartments. The prison yard can be overhauled into a scenic courtyard. Sorry...I couldn't resist.

[only]

Which other major to mid-major cities have maximum security prisons in their downtowns?

DC, Baltimore, Atlanta, New York are all close to downtown.

That's just off the top of my head.

[Jones_]

A note on the history...only the old west wall is left standing...that and the site itself are all that are really historic. If the wall can be preserved I would be for building something with some architectural merit (define that anyway you like) if you could get a road connection accross the tracks somehow.

[urbanesq]

^^ Central Prison is part of the character of downtown Raleigh?? That's the craziest thing I've ever heard.

It's not part of downtown; it's not integrated into downtown in any way-- visually, physically or socially; it acts as a barrier between downtown and NCSU; it is ugly; it is an employment center, sure, but it is a negative factor in residential location choice.

I expect nobody's talked about relocating it because that's an expensive thing to do, and I've never heard that it is in any way inadequate for the purpose it serves.

That said, the site would be a great location for redevelopment, connecting the really pretty Gov. Morehead school campus, Pullen park and NCSU to the Boylan Heights area and downtown proper. It would be an ideal location for high-density residential because of its proximity to downtown, the propoesed rail stop (which WILL happen one day SOMEhow, DAMMIT--- but I digress....), and the student population at State.

[orulz]

...if you could get a road connection accross the tracks somehow.

I can't help but think it would be easy... the elbow in Morgan is significantly higher than the tracks, so you almost wouldn't need any fill at all on that side. You'd have to put in some fill dirt between the prison and the Governors School, but if memory serves there's a bit of a berm there already. Much less complicated then (for example) the RR grade separation Blue Ridge and Hillsborough.

[Subway Scoundrel]

I don't think that condos have to look tired in 10 years...

Do you agree that the prison is more a part of the character of the city as Dorthea Dix is? How do you feel about the shutting down and redevelopment of Dix? I'm just curious, no flame intended.

Dix are large grounds that are underutilized. The Prison is in a tight corner blocked in by railroad tracks. I am not saying it will not go sometime, but I would hope that Dix gets developed (or whatever happens to Dix) way before the prison goes. We can not even get the warehouse district off the ground let alone Hammond Rd, land east of Washington School, South Raleigh. Geeez, we just got someone to agree to build on the parking lot next to the Hudson (RBC American HQ).

I just hate to see (or people talk) about getting rid of "industry" (yes, the prison is an industry) or instituioal DT landmarks so more condo's can get built when other open space is available.

Again, Dix is not a lot or small parcel, it is a very large tract and that is why so many people are salavating over it.

Again, this is just my humble opinion.

[Subway Scoundrel]

I don't think that condos have to look tired in 10 years...

They don't have to but many will. The Paramount will look OK in 10 years but not like it looks today. In 10 years, come back to the board and see what people want to be built.

Go to any city that has building actively in the last 30 years and yes, you see buildings that look old very soon. Good example is Seattle. Yes, many tall buildings and such but not exactly going to win awards. I am interested in seeing 222 Glenwood will look like. Another example is Vancouver. So many condo buildings have been built in the last 20 years and you can just see them aging like a half eaten apple.

Use to be that the BofA building (Hanover 1) was great for DT but now we kind of look at it and "well, OK". And saying "just build better" will not happen.....Look at the new CC Hotel . Look at what will be proposed as builders add cheaper options.

No flame intended but I just don't want to be a person who is all about building condos so I can say "Look at that" and "we have this many condo's being built DT." Raleigh need's them and keep building them but they will not look the same to everyone on this board in 10-20 years.

I remember the day when people were happy to see Devourx Meadow torn down as it was old and an eyesore. Now it is a garbage dump truck parking lot right near the fastest growing part of DT and I do, along with others, wish it was still a baseball or ball field.

Again, just my humble opinion....

[MR-2]

I see no issues with the central prison that would lead me to want to get rid of it. Rather, the judicial building across from it bugs me. When they have the new justice center built, I'd like to see the old one replaced with a 40-floor building. It happens to be in a great spot for that.

[orulz]

I see no issues with the central prison that would lead me to want to get rid of it. Rather, the judicial building across from it bugs me. When they have the new justice center built, I'd like to see the old one replaced with a 40-floor building. It happens to be in a great spot for that.

I believe you're talking about the jail, not the prison.

The prison is located on Western Boulevard across from Hunt Drive, bordered on two sides by railroad tracks and the Governors School on the other.

[ChiefJoJo]

Lot's of talk in the news lately on the new inmate hospital project at the prison (& next to Boylan Heights). We've talked about the likelihood of the state selling it for development (down the road) in conjunction with both a transit-orianted development on the NCRR rail line and with Dix across the street. As the article notes, even the city council has discussed it privately, but it's clear that the prison will stay put for a long time. Bad news for the city and Boylan Heights.

[ERG]

Lot's of talk in the news lately on the new inmate hospital project at the prison (& next to Boylan Heights). We've talked about the likelihood of the state selling it for development (down the road) in conjunction with both a transit-orianted development on the NCRR rail line and with Dix across the street. As the article notes, even the city council has discussed it privately, but it's clear that the prison will stay put for a long time. Bad news for the city and Boylan Heights.

[waltergropius]

Lot's of talk in the news lately on the new inmate hospital project at the prison (& next to Boylan Heights). We've talked about the likelihood of the state selling it for development (down the road) in conjunction with both a transit-orianted development on the NCRR rail line and with Dix across the street. As the article notes, even the city council has discussed it privately, but it's clear that the prison will stay put for a long time. Bad news for the city and Boylan Heights.

[dmccall]

There is a long history of not crediting the actual story breaker around here. I got this story and didn't run it because, for the life of me, I cannot see what the short term problem is to a few BH houses. The remaining buffer is fine, IMHO. I AM upset, however, that the DOC is digging in here instead of transitioning this facility to a more outlying area. With this land, the state could buy a ton of rural land. I don't mean this in a short term sense, but more in a 20-30 year sense. The prison was built out of town originally, and the town grew past it. At this point it is a giant obstacle to any kind of walkability beyond Boylan Heights.

When I went over there to investigate, btw, I was struck by how poorly people in Boylan Heights are keeping their yards. This neighborhood has so much potential, but frankly could use some fixing up that only takes some sweat equity and TLC.

[ERG]

Furthermore, the N&O failed to inform taxpayers about this project last summer when it was approved. In fact this project slipped under the radar completely from the media until now.

Foxy, you ask why move the Central Prison? I would ask why anyone would want the State Penitentiary (essentially) downtown, in a capitol city, or in any city for that matter? Note that when it was first built, it was outside the city limits.

[Subway Scoundrel]

New Raleigh broke this news last weekend and has renderings of the new buildings, a site demolition slideshow, and aerial maps detailing the location of the project.

I would ask why anyone would want the State Penitentiary (essentially) downtown, in a capitol city, or in any city for that matter? Note that when it was first built, it was outside the city limits.

[serapis]

One word---Jobs !! WIth this facility, hundreds of jobs will now be close to downtown. I have no issue with the prison there. Go ahead and move it to nowhere Franklin county and watch how many people quit and go work somewhere else. GO tell employees that make $23K a year, they now have to drive 40 miles each way to go to work. It is the main prison in NC in the Capital City.

BTW, the land it sits on is not that big? Yea, lets build condos on it ? I guess people think we should move the blind school so we can build more condos ?

As people have stated before, there are numerous places to build in downtown Raleigh whrere the prison property does not matter. Build all these proposed condos downtown.

Even if it did move, I guess BHs would fight just to fight whatever was planned.

[cthayes75]

The state doesn't have the money to build a new maximum security prison anywhere in the state. They've spent all the debt the can afford for the next 10 years building new UNC system buildings.

The state is going to need 7,000 additional prison beds over the next 5-7 years and they've spent a couple of billion dollars on UNC system buildings after the voters had already given UNC $2 billion in construction bonds in 2000.

The issue of building at Central Prison is much, much larger than a few residents in Boylan Heights getting their panties in a wad over a new building.

[Transplant]

One word---Jobs !! WIth this facility, hundreds of jobs will now be close to downtown. I have no issue with the prison there. Go ahead and move it to nowhere Franklin county and watch how many people quit and go work somewhere else. GO tell employees that make $23K a year, they now have to drive 40 miles each way to go to work. It is the main prison in NC in the Capital City.

BTW, the land it sits on is not that big? Yea, lets build condos on it ? I guess people think we should move the blind school so we can build more condos ?

As people have stated before, there are numerous places to build in downtown Raleigh whrere the prison property does not matter. Build all these proposed condos downtown.

Even if it did move, I guess BHs would fight just to fight whatever was planned.

[ncwebguy]

Prison workers making $23k/year would be a lot closer to being able to afford their own home vs. renting a small apartment (if they can afford one) in Raleigh city limits. Most workers either live in less than ideal conditions in Raleigh, or outside Raleigh in Knightdale, Garner, or even further away. If a central location matters, why was the new mental hospital built in butner instead of the Dix campus?

Would Central Prison be any less central if it was south of 440 off Hammond Road? It seems to be good enough for Wake County to build a few hundred more beds down that way. If they don't want to be near another prison (two if you count the womens' correctional facility at MLK and Rock Quarry) how about near 40/Wade? The state already owns a fair amount of land north of Wade and the closest neighbors are in the Blue Ridge and Trinity Road corridors. Would it have an environmental impact on the NCSU teaching forest and Umstead?

Wake County's jail is not at Central Prison's level of security, but is close, is *in* the CBD, and you wouldn't know it was there unless you were looking for it. It has had problems with overcrowding, but not security. Central Prison looks similar to the prison in the Shawshank Redemption. Which might not be so bad if current Amtrak (and potential future Triangle Transit) passengers approaching from the west get an up close and personal view.

In Boylan Heights, the houses closest to the prison are also on the active rail line. A few are owner-occupided but most are the last remnants of the neighborhood before the Western/MLK connector was built and westbound traffic snaked through via South Street. Renters often have little to no neighborhood pride and landlords do as little as possible to keep rents low if their tenants don't say anything. Years ago there were plans to put condos or townhouses on the warehouses on the NW corner of the neighborhood south of the tracks, but I think the financing fell through. I don't think the neighborhood fought them, but I'm not sure.

Due to the area's topography, it doesn't lend to replacign any and all natrual vegetation with well-manicured lawns common in master planned neighborhoods. And some residents are, shall we say, eclectic and make landscaping choices that use little to no water, chemicals, or work. On the east side, landscaping is worse in the rental units near Heritage Park and North/South Saunders.

New Raleigh has no problem "borrowing" from this site and others without giving any credit, but look out when the shoe is on the other foot! After "breaking" the news that Yancy's was closed as it was serving lunch does not make it a credible news source. To say nothing of a history of spamming this site with "posts" that are little more than a link to another site.

[Subway Scoundrel]

Please. according to the DOC website, the 700 jobs that are there could be recovered 10 fold if they developed the 29 acres.

29 acres is big. a typical city block is about 4 acres, so you're talking around 6 or 7 blocks. I would say that is big. I'm not sure what land is going for around there, but if handled correctly, I bet $3-$5Million an acre is reasonable. Could you build a brand new facility for $100-$150Million, no. But its a start.

[Gard]

^^^

I agree with Subway. The prison at this point in time is a non-issue when we have plenty of other land around we have yet to develop. Aside from that, the city "approval" is largely symbolic since the state can do what they will, city approval or not if they are he** bent on it.

[Jones_]

Instead of tearing down and rebuilding the most desirable portions of our city time after time, the grid should have been expanded outward in every direction with medium density development. Land price distribution downtown probably would have been more even. The constant teardown and rebuild in the core has left us with economically infeasible lots (such as Layfayette) due to the huge costs of the land and then crackville dirt cheap portions of town within spitting distance of each other. The fact that the State has serviceable facilities on the prison site makes the opportunity cost of moving it very high. The price that can be had for that land will not touch the price along Fayetteville St or in Hayes Barton (4-5 million an acre), making it almost impossible to ever develop in our lifetimes (like Subway said) unless the State just decides it needs more space and wants to move its death chamber farther from the public eye. Blount Street Commons can happen because very little office space was lost in the sell off....very little opportunity cost to the State.

[Transplant]

The city can not even guarantee that anything will be built on 2 sides of the new $220M convention center on the new $8M Fayetteville Street, let alone, 1/2 mile away on the other side of the railroad tracks not officially downtown. Build downtown and by the time they are even close to filling in some of the open space, maybe the prison can come back up for discussion. I think I will be dead and buried by that time and the hospital will be so out of date, they will need to turn that into condos.. (probably dead before the Layfayette gets built too)

[vitaviatic]

9453']

The state doesn't have the money to build a new maximum security prison anywhere in the state. They've spent all the debt the can afford for the next 10 years building new UNC system buildings.

The state is going to need 7,000 additional prison beds over the next 5-7 years and they've spent a couple of billion dollars on UNC system buildings after the voters had already given UNC $2 billion in construction bonds in 2000.

The issue of building at Central Prison is much, much larger than a few residents in Boylan Heights getting their panties in a wad over a new building.

[DanRNC]

^You are thinking way above what the leaders in NC can comprehend. What other states have their main state pentitentiary in a downtown residential area?