bic

Dr. P Phillips Orlando Performing Arts Center [Phase 2 Under Construction]

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Boomer136    203

I went to the website before and viewed the renderings bic posted. I don't mind the roof overhang... I just think it should've been 2 levels taller.

woops. didn't see the above post. fabric roof? bad idea. not happy right now.

Perhaps I'm mis-reading Liz, but solar panels?

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Boomer136    203

So Boomer136...

Why do you say there wont be a reall pipe organ in the acoustic hall? Isn't it apart of the budget?

They are a must have now adays for a PAC to be considerd world class. What are the dimentions of the Chamber (if you know)?

1. The cost, not just initial but maintenance.

2. Who'd use it? If it goes in, much easier to use electronic to set in, take out, like a grand piano and patch into the house sound. The upstage traveling beastie in Wisconsin is all pipe organ. Loose the seats, you loose revenue. Why permanently kill seats to have a pipe organ for how many dates in a year? Don't think either the OPO or the folks that bring in guest orchestras would be very happy with that idea. And to be quite honest, the CBD has a couple of great ones. Get it, great! They're just swell! Oh I kill me, organ jokes. Seriously, unless some group unknown until now ponies up the money, there won't be one. No inside info, just common sense. Perhaps a Baroque society can team up with some Camille Saint-Sa

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cloudship    7

but I am very disappointed in the fabric element of the overhang. that's an architectural element that this town can and should do without- OIA arrivals section included.

I can't for the life of me place which one, but it reminds me so much of an airport. Particularly with the fabric roof.

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RedStar25    206

1. The cost, not just initial but maintenance.

2. Who'd use it? If it goes in, much easier to use electronic to set in, take out, like a grand piano and patch into the house sound. The upstage traveling beastie in Wisconsin is all pipe organ. Loose the seats, you loose revenue. Why permanently kill seats to have a pipe organ for how many dates in a year? Don't think either the OPO or the folks that bring in guest orchestras would be very happy with that idea. And to be quite honest, the CBD has a couple of great ones. Get it, great! They're just swell! Oh I kill me, organ jokes. Seriously, unless some group unknown until now ponies up the money, there won't be one. No inside info, just common sense. Perhaps a Baroque society can team up with some Camille Saint-Sa

Edited by RedStar25

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prahaboheme    672

Am I missing something here? The negative feedback seems a bit unfounded excluding a few legitimate improvement suggestions from Jaybee.

I am thrilled they have decided not to disrupt the street grid on Magnolia. If anything, that in itself proves the architects were pedestrian-friendly. Additionally, the Orange Ave plaza looks to be a unique addition downtown--i'm especially fond of the rectangular boxed in effect of the hotel/office space. It is hard to draw too many other conclusions from this until we see more detailed renderings.

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scottb411    0

The idea of the roof extension for the protection of the elements is very similar to the Angel Wing at First Presbyterian downtown but the architecture is similar to First Methodist across the street. I don't work or live downtown, but the outdoor plaza looks like it will be a nice area to have during the day with all of the benches as a new park. It reminds of the proposal for centerplace, which I'm sure is off the board of getting built:

http://www.orlandoskyscrapers.com/ViewItem...?parentCatId=41

If restaurants and retail line both sides of the outdoor plaza, I think this will be a really fun place to be at night. Maybe this will be Orlando's way of getting retail back into the downtown core. The second rendering of the palm trees makes me think of the Cheesecake/Brio area at Millenia but on a larger scale.

From the outside, I think Orlando's PAC looks like it will be more exciting and have a lot more going on than Miami's PAC which looks like it is surrounded by a parking lot:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/88/26185029...6817c47.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/95/26184629...e38f74e.jpg?v=0

I also took a look at Atlanta's Symphony Center and it looks like an 80's epcot building:

http://www.atlantasymphony.org/symphonycen...Picture018.aspx

A look at their new PAC doesn't really excite me either:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wizum/450959472/

I'm sure that the renderings were never going to be able to satisfy what most where looking for but I think this is exactly what Orlando needs. Just my two cents.

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Maybe this is a dumb question, and I might be missing something, but aren't the hotel and office building slated to go up in future phases, i.e. as the demand/developers materialize? If so, what happens to the plaza in the meantime? Paved center with empty lots on the side?

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Jaybee    1

Ummm, before everyone decides that this is a fabric roof, at least do a little research...

"A great steel roof, resembling the outstretched wings of a bird in flight, will draw visitors into the new Dr. P. Phillips Orlando Performing Arts Center..."

One extra thing, it was funny how the model had trees in the central courtyard, but the architect didn't bother with a streetscape around the building in the model. The plans show some thin points in the streetscape around the building. Hopefully there won't be any mistakes ala the Disney in LA - there are very bad streescapes without trees in the back of that structure.

I guess the Lincoln Center comparison is growing on me...

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Magicfan95    0

It seems like too many on here want something crazy that is unlike anything we've seen before. The problem with those designs is that, unless they are the Guggenheim or Sydny Opera House, they tend to wear on people over time and date very easy. Especially in a conservative city like Orlando.

I prefer a design that looks different, but won't wear off over time.

Personally, like the arena, I think this design is perfect for Orlando. A very abstract building would be nice, but it would look so out of place in the downtown area.

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Boomer136    203

Well if you go to APOBA (Associated Pipe Organ Builders of America) you will see that the up keep for a pipe organ is less than that of an electronic. And the Pipe Organ will last longer.

On a side note digital/electronic organs can not produce three dimentional sound. Speakers project sound in one direction where as pipes radiates sound in ever direction.

And yes Downtown Orlando does have some wonderfull instruments (Saint Lukes Cathedral and First Methodist). But it would be exceptional if Orlando's premier preformance venue house a new, forgive the pun, great organ.

How do you know the organ is not funded? It may be apart of the Over all cost. At most you were talking about $2-3 million for a new Large organ from a leading builder. Say 100 ranks by Dobson or Casavant.

As for who would use it? Well the symphony and opera of course. Most major orchestral/opera scores have organ parts in them. The main purpose to undergird the bass line and fill out the sound with fundamental tone. Then of course you have your organ symphonies, etc...

I just want to see this PAC have everything it should...and In my opinion that would include a large pipe organ.

Tho if it dosn't I guess the symphony can still perform at First Methodist when an organ is needed.

Well.... first everything produces 'three dimensional sound', its called a polar pattern and at low frequencies most things are omnidirectional, and true: speakers are designed to 'cover' an area with the high frequencies: Here is what the back side of a speaker cabinet looks like:

Behindthespeaker.jpg

The roll off around 63 is because that is where the high pass filter starts its roll off. Everything beloew 63 is omni as well.

The pipes have their polar patterns as well as do all instruments. That is why if one is recording or reinforcing the sound and someone wants the sound of a clarinet to be darker for example, you don't have to get a new player or instrument, you just move the mic into a zone of the pattern that has more fundamental and low overtones than high. And high frequencies are directional off the pipes as well.

The real reason why pipe organs sound better is because of the multiple sources speaking together instead of getting the phase issues inherent in combining tones in the electronic realm. That is why some shows like Lion King uses an A-B system in which the two principle singers lets say on deck have their own speaker in each listening zone around the theatre. The Dead's Wall of Sound was the same principle. Added to that, many of the electronic installs in churches are done by folks who don't have the ears to do it right as compared to the pipe guys that fly in.

Be that as it may, you know the difficulty of actually building an organ for a room, each piece has a location that is very precise. Setting and striking a pipe organ is something that while interesting to contemplate, sounds fraught with problems. In Wisconsin, they permanently installed the ranks and cabinets on the upstage beastie. You would not be able to have 360 degree seating as a patron sitting next to the mid reed tone box for example would get a much different experience by the flute rank or out in the house. A pipe organ just takes up too much real estate, if nothing else though, I am given to understand the infrastructure will be there to install an organ at a later time. For the amount of program time of the organ, not now later might be the more prudent course. Until then, FUMCO and St. Lukes will have to serve as venues I believe.

Talking about cost, sunshine mentioned about the high cost versus the aesthetics of the exterior. Performance spaces are filled with high dollar specialized equipment. The multi-form acoustic space also has some serious hydraulic powered seating wagons and lifts going on. Think of it as a factory, it's not the walls that costs, it's the stuff inside.

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NewsDude    0

From the outside, I think Orlando's PAC looks like it will be more exciting and have a lot more going on than Miami's PAC which looks like it is surrounded by a parking lot:

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/88/26185029...6817c47.jpg?v=0

http://farm1.static.flickr.com/95/26184629...e38f74e.jpg?v=0

I also took a look at Atlanta's Symphony Center and it looks like an 80's epcot building:

http://www.atlantasymphony.org/symphonycen...Picture018.aspx

A look at their new PAC doesn't really excite me either:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/wizum/450959472/

I'm sure that the renderings were never going to be able to satisfy what most where looking for but I think this is exactly what Orlando needs. Just my two cents.

Architecturally I think Miami's PAC is much more intresting, modern, stand out. And around their PAC the City Centre a huge retail center development is coming up next, an opera venue and the area is already buzzing, new condos and new fine dinning. Hopefully our OPAC plaza comes out spotless and perfect . Atlantas symphony look amazing! The PAC not so much.

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RedStar25    206

Very good point Boomer. I guess I was thinking we will see a builder selected sometime in the future or even after the building is built.

Of course we are assuming the organ will be chamberd. There are a few organs out there that actually can be rolled onto stage. Detrioit's PAC comes to mind. This is very difficult to do and if Orlando could pull this off sucessfully it would be truly unique.

I just came from a work shop at the University of Tennessee. In thier performance hall the organ is off to the side of the stage in its own case. Tucked into a nitch in the wall.

Richards Fowkes at University of Tennessee Opus 15

45 Ranks Tracker action (let it be known Im not a big fan of trackers)

opus15.jpg

opus15-1.jpg

15_004.jpg

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JRS1    0

^^

well, there better not be fabric in the roof.

I figured the glass lobby would glow at night, like the video stated.

^^

Miami is Miami. the Pelli center is nice, but its separated by Biscayne Blvd. This center will have a huge courtyard pointing towards city hall.

They criticized Miami's PAC b/c it looked too abstract compared to the Sidney Opera House. Now, we're using Miami's PAC as a litmus test?

^^

I'm going to talk to Russell.

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Jaybee    1

...On the note regarding pipe organs, there is no comparison between an actual pipe organ and an electronic one. There are pipe organs that are assisted by amplification, and there are electronic ones that may sound pleasing (but not real to the trained ear). The City's comments on the PAC were such that a pipe organ could be accommodated in the multi-form hall, but I do not think it is actually part of the current cost of the project, but I could be wrong.

And anyone who believes that a pipe organ has the same or less amount of upkeep as a electronic one is smokin' something in their pipes - I should know, as I play the organ frequently.

My personal favorites real pipe organs are the Aeolian-Skinner of Boston (which I think has one in FUMCO) and Schoenstein of San Francisco.

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bulldogger    79

Regarding the private building on property, I believe CNL III is still to take up the south west office building. I'm sure it would be easy to get a hotel chain to sign on in that north west location. You will have arts and business travelers.

We started getting bored on this forum as of late and now we have 2 out of our 3 large public works making news... one even broke ground. Downtown is not dead. Nor is it dying... like the rest of the real estate market throughout this country.

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pip    0

Any word on the exterior building materials (besides the glass of course). Meaning a stone facade, type of stone, etc..? (hoping not pre-cast!)

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prahaboheme    672

Architecturally I think Miami's PAC is much more intresting, modern, stand out. And around their PAC the City Centre a huge retail center development is coming up next, an opera venue and the area is already buzzing, new condos and new fine dinning. Hopefully our OPAC plaza comes out spotless and perfect . Atlantas symphony look amazing! The PAC not so much.

I think it is great Miami is building up a neighborhood around their new PAC. The area is in need of life. I am happier Orlando has decided to build theirs in an already established, and vibrant, center.

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bic    75

I am just worried that such an Auto-centric design is going to end up killing it.

One thing I hope they do to help bridge the gap between the PAC itself and the plaza across the street is to brick that portion of Magnolia that bisects the site rather than go with asphalt.

I'm really disappointed that no effort was made to incorporate the new curved portion of South Street into the north facade of the PAC. It's such a boxy and bland building on its back sides, it would have been a good opportunity for the architects to do something unique with that curved street.

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Jaybee    1

Regarding the private building on property, I believe CNL III is still to take up the south west office building.

The CNL III is across the street on Anderson, not at the South west corner of the site. Skybridge across Anderson connects. Parking located under the building, ala Solaire. Coming up soon on DDB DRC.

Thankfully, no Skybridge proposed across Orange.

Edited by Jaybee

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JRS1    0

I'm really disappointed that no effort was made to incorporate the new curved portion of South Street into the north facade of the PAC. It's such a boxy and bland building on its back sides, it would have been a good opportunity for the architects to do something unique with that curved street.

at first, that's why I thought they curved it, to create a dramatic vista from a curved north facade. guess not.

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JRS1    0

something to think about.

everyone should either go to Miami or do the street view on google map. I'd up;oad the images but it will take too long.

Our new PAC will have a dramatic front door, which I think has been severely underrated. Miami's PAC does not have one to speak of. If you thought ours looks pedestrial unfriendly and pro-auto, look at Miami's and how Biscayne cuts through the middle of it. At least ours will have the huge overhang-- I think it's 8 stories up, over magnolia, a huge glass wall (depicted I guess) and the two leveled crosswalk to the public space to the east, which will also be built up.

Also, while I love Miami's PAC, it doesn't offer anything at the sidewalk level. you can drive by it and miss it if you aren't paying attention save for the afterthought-looking crosswalk with Carnival sign on it, which is weak. the crosswalk-balconies over magnolia ours depicts are two-levels and massive. Also, Miami's from 2nd Ave. looks not much better than driving by our Fed Cthse.- no BS.

I think Miami's does a good job of hiding it's mass- but do you want that?. Ours will be in your face. Miami's will mainly look good from a 747 or public highrise observatory, which doesn't exist.

I'm starting to do a 180 on this thing... ("...you wanted miracles... I give you the F...B...I...")

Edited by JRS1

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