Dr. P Phillips Orlando Performing Arts Center [Phase 2 Under Construction]

[demon]

Orlando struggles because no one really cares about it.

I'm deeply offended by this comment. This forum is filled with people who care about this city. We may not always agree, but if we didn't care we wouldn't spend so much time here.

[JRS1]

^^

Cloudship, you make some really good points about Orlando.

as for the caring issue, realistically, Olrlando is all about neighborhoods. Parramore is a failure, but the rest of the central city isn't. Parramore is a small portion west of I-4; but everything east of I-4, and/or north and south of downtown on both sides of I-4 isn't a failure or a haven of apathetic residents.

I agree about the notion of having landmarks. Chicago is all about that; but Chicago is home to names like FLW and SOM over the past century, and the Burnham plan, which went farther in creating a sense of community more than any one building ever could. the thing I like about Chicago, for example, is that when they build something, they build it big, so it stands out; people take pride in that. I'm not just talking about Sears... I'm talking about places like the US Post Office, Merchandise Mart, McCormick Place, O'Hare, UA Arena, Buckingham Fountain, etc... it's like just about every building they build held some sort of record at that time; it's like a city of relevant monuments.

Orlando is on a similar track of having big things here. OCCC, the hotels, OIA & FAA Tower, the WDW PUD, the FH and ORHS main campuses, the Celebration and Baldwin PUDs, retail industry as a whole and individual title holding properties, entertainment & retail corridors, other structures, etc...

But as far as having a specific bldg. downtown to make people care more or rally around it, we have that now. It's not a building per se... it's the CBD as a whole. And it's in the form of dozens of eateries and bars and stores from Jefferson to Church, and from CSS all the way to Thornton Park, with Lake Eola as the glue, and properties such as CSS and PTP and now Paramount as the catalysts (and someday soon 55W). dpac and it's neighboring new projects will strengthen that. So will the new Events Center which will also bring a new hotel or two to the Church St. corridor.

and here's one more thing. transportation. God-willing CFRAIL gets approved. the new 408-I-4 Interchange will be built out in perhaps 5 years if I read correctly. when those two projects are complete, and the Events Center is in full swing on one side of I-4 with the new Hilton flanking the other side, with the dpac flanking 408 to the north, that will create such a visual explosion that it will "wow" drivers and visitors and residents as they drive by downtown. By then, there will be newer projects already U/C as well.

sorry for the long post. And there's one more thing: the convention center. Downtown is doing everything it is doing without the benefit of a downtown convention center, like Chicago, Atlanta, New Orleans, Louisville, Tampa, Jax, and other cities who get hotel project that piggyback off of that industry. not major development, but development nevertheless.

sorry: one more thing also-- downtown events- which bring relevance to downtown.

Edited September 21, 2008 by JRS1

[RedStar25]

I am not trying to dis downtown Orlando. And I am not saying that there aren't a few people who care. But there is not a whole community that cares.

This has been one thing which has really prevented me from being able to move to Orlando permanently. The lack of an involved community makes many ventures fairly difficult. When I am talking pride I am not talking "my city is better than your city". I am talking "this is my home. It makes a difference to me if it is clean and if it is safe, and I am going to put effort into making it that way".

It doesn't have to be modern or have every amenity. In fact, often times it's the older buildings that matter most. And that is where I see Orlando still not having that community feel. It's still about what amenity do we need now, that building is getting old lets replace it, let's make it consistent and non offensive and all PC. I think the PAC is a great spark to drive that. Maybe it isn't. Maybe some other Spark will happen and the PAC will just make up the filler. Maybe I am just getting too anxious.

You are right in that a building is only one way to help trigger that sense of community. I think retail and restaurants can encourage that, but are as much a second step. Events are important. and even more so, events that appeal to all groups. Not necessarily at the same time, but which don't isolate

certain groups intentionally or otherwise. Transportation, too will be a huge part of that.

I just am trying to fight the approach of not daring to do anything special, because doing nothing bold will only lead to nothing happening. somewhere something has to happen to get things moving.

Growing up in Orlando I believe there are tons of people who care about it as a community..... can any city really proclaim to have 100% community spirit? Come to think of it... isn't the notion of "community" somthing inherently speculative?

Nice projects for Miami... but gee... there are a lot of Visors on thoes buildings too....

Edited September 21, 2008 by RedStar25

[JRS1]

^^

yeah, I agree. I love those structures in Miami too.

I agree also that there is a big sense of community in Orlando... maybe not in the unincorporated parts of the OC, but definitely in the core. Not to mention Winter Park, Maitland, Apopka and Sanford, to name a few suburban cities.

^^

As for big boxes for buildings: see all of downtown LA, most of downtown Chicago, Manhattan, and every other city in the US. nice designs is a matter of taste, I think. for instance, I happen to like the 1960's style from SOM in Chicago and most every other downtown with those big black box buildings like Daley Center, Atlanta's Equitable, the 699' twins in LA, and a whole sleu of Manhattan bldgs. But that's just me.

[bulldogger]

I understand taking pride in a community or city. Ask about two thirds of everyone you meet in Orlando where they are from and there is an answer other than Orlando. Probably one tenth of everyone is from New York City (or it seems that way to me). They still wear their Yankee hats and are very proud of New York and give props to their old home town.

One thing I have to say about this... where you at now? I grew up in PA, but I don't see myself leaving Orlando. I love this town and I love seeing it grow up and yeah, there are problems. I wish we had the mass transit infrastructure of Boston, New York, or Chicago, but they can wish all day they had our tree lined streets and fresh air that accompanies them (New York stinks literally 24/7). The tree lined streets of Winter Park and neighborhoods of Orlando is what makes me feel like I'm at home. That's my community. Fourth of July in Winter Park is like Mayberry. If we didn't have community, you couldn't get half of our city population down for the fireworks on the 4th.

The New Yorkers in Orlando that I ask if they would ever move back always say NEVER. How's that for community.

[codypet]

I understand taking pride in a community or city. Ask about two thirds of everyone you meet in Orlando where they are from and there is an answer other than Orlando. Probably one tenth of everyone is from New York City (or it seems that way to me). They still wear their Yankee hats and are very proud of New York and give props to their old home town.

One thing I have to say about this... where you at now? I grew up in PA, but I don't see myself leaving Orlando. I love this town and I love seeing it grow up and yeah, there are problems. I wish we had the mass transit infrastructure of Boston, New York, or Chicago, but they can wish all day they had our tree lined streets and fresh air that accompanies them (New York stinks literally 24/7). The tree lined streets of Winter Park and neighborhoods of Orlando is what makes me feel like I'm at home. That's my community. Fourth of July in Winter Park is like Mayberry. If we didn't have community, you couldn't get half of our city population down for the fireworks on the 4th.

The New Yorkers in Orlando that I ask if they would ever move back always say NEVER. How's that for community.

It depends where you're at in Orlando. I hated living in East Orlando. Most of Orlando is made like that. 1/4 acre lots with 2 trees in every parcel and poorly built cookie cutter homes. That's nothing to be proud of....not just that everyone was inside their homes all day. Moving to downtown, well south of downtown, I noticed that the tree lined, lake filled neighborhoods are really something that you can feel is trully pretty and be proud of where you're from. Unfortunately, most of orlando live in the cookie cutter suburbs. Most of the Slantinel message board when Publix open stated that it wouldn't survive a year cuz "there's no reason for anyone to be downtown" That's the reason why there's no percieved pride in the town, noone cares to go to the part of town that's the nicest.

Edited September 22, 2008 by codypet

[steve_o]

My perspective is that many people move here and then move on. Its a cookie cutter town built for the transient. Someone who wants to live where there is work for as cheap as possible until they move on and do the same exact thing somewhere else. Many "newer" cities are like this.

People do "care" about this city, just don

[JRS1]

It depends where you're at in Orlando. I hated living in East Orlando. Most of Orlando is made like that. 1/4 acre lots with 2 trees in every parcel and poorly built cookie cutter homes. That's nothing to be proud of....not just that everyone was inside their homes all day. Moving to downtown, well south of downtown, I noticed that the tree lined, lake filled neighborhoods are really something that you can feel is trully pretty and be proud of where you're from. Unfortunately, most of orlando live in the cookie cutter suburbs. Most of the Slantinel message board when Publix open stated that it wouldn't survive a year cuz "there's no reason for anyone to be downtown" That's the reason why there's no percieved pride in the town, noone cares to go to the part of town that's the nicest.

well, I will rally everyone I know and pressure them to support Publix Paramount if it's the last thing I ever do to prove those naysayers at the little tribune wrong.

I came up with a proposal myself in terms of Orange County planting 1 million oaks in and around the metro; and that everyone would contribute $50 towards that end. they grow fast. I'm 3 years into my place and 2 oaks which were planted in 2005, and were stickly looking and about 10-12 feet tall if that are now to where I can climb them and walk under them when walking the dog... amazing. there should be a law against chopping down oak trees. 3 years and I can stand under it in a rain storm and not get wet. can you believe it?

[codypet]

BTW - most people that do move in and out with little love for this city only live in the suburbs. I had a big change of heart after moving from E. Orlando to downtown 6 years ago. I do agree, its a different vibe down here and wish others could feel it.

You're not kidding. The I noticed the difference in vibe and I've only lived downtown for 2 months. Its definately a step up, and feels like a different town compared with E. Orlando.

[prahaboheme]

well, I will rally everyone I know and pressure them to support Publix Paramount if it's the last thing I ever do to prove those naysayers at the little tribune wrong.

I came up with a proposal myself in terms of Orange County planting 1 million oaks in and around the metro; and that everyone would contribute $50 towards that end. they grow fast. I'm 3 years into my place and 2 oaks which were planted in 2005, and were stickly looking and about 10-12 feet tall if that are now to where I can climb them and walk under them when walking the dog... amazing. there should be a law against chopping down oak trees. 3 years and I can stand under it in a rain storm and not get wet. can you believe it?

Did you present your tree plan to the City? Orlando is in desperate need of tree coverage, especially in areas like OBT, Colonial, and most of East and South Orlando. The perception of a city can easily change with landscaping.

[spenser1058]

well, I will rally everyone I know and pressure them to support Publix Paramount if it's the last thing I ever do to prove those naysayers at the little tribune wrong.

I came up with a proposal myself in terms of Orange County planting 1 million oaks in and around the metro; and that everyone would contribute $50 towards that end. they grow fast. I'm 3 years into my place and 2 oaks which were planted in 2005, and were stickly looking and about 10-12 feet tall if that are now to where I can climb them and walk under them when walking the dog... amazing. there should be a law against chopping down oak trees. 3 years and I can stand under it in a rain storm and not get wet. can you believe it?

JRS1 can pick up where Mayor Marks left off!

http://www.hmdb.org/marker.asp?marker=6914

Interestingly, an unexpected dilemma crept up as a result of Mayor Marks' tree-planting drive. He encouraged the planting of fast-growing laurel oaks instead of live oaks. Only problem was that laurel oaks have a life span of only 60-75 years on average (as opposed to hundreds for live oaks), and since they were all planted about the same time, much of downtown's wonderful forest cover all started dying and limbs falling and, in a few cases, trees actually toppling during the same period in the 1980's and early '90's. The City's Urban Forester (did you know we had one?), Andy Kittsley, recommended everyone replant with live oaks this time

Edited September 22, 2008 by spenser1058

[JRS1]

^^

wow. then live oaks it is.... maybe that's where Live Oak got their name from.

no, I didn't present that to the City. But, I agree that landscaping can do wonders in most places. However, with regard to Americana... it's a lost cause.

how much can a live oak cost these days anyway? (if I'm not mistaken, a live oak is the tree in front of 55W, right?)

[RedStar25]

I understand taking pride in a community or city. Ask about two thirds of everyone you meet in Orlando where they are from and there is an answer other than Orlando.

Isn't the premises of your question wrong? If asking someone where they are from... wouldn't they respond with where they were born or the last place they lived?

Why not ask... Where do you consider home?

Edited September 23, 2008 by RedStar25

[mrh3]

Hi everyone it's great to see this discussion come into full bloom about Orlando architectural styles. I was recently reading from a book entitled The Handbook for Commercial Real Estate Investing by John McMahan and ran across the following statement:

In commodity markets the emphasis is on job formation with real estate viewed largely as a factor of production. As a result, commodity markets generally reflect a strong progrowth and projobs philosophy. In fact the often stated public objective of these policies is to keep land costs and building rents low so that the area continues to be attractive to new firms and existing firms don't leave.

These policies are accomplished by a very gerneral plan: relatively lenient zoning restriction, largely nonunion labor, and an expedited entitlement process. The result is real estate markets with relatively low rents and high vacancy rates. This situation also encourages a considerable amount of shifting between urban nodes as new product becomes available, often at lower costs. Examples of commodity markets include Atlanta, Austin, Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Memphis, Orlando, and Phoenix.

Many institutional real estate investors believe that the public policy creating commodity markets implicity favors real estate speculators at the expense of long-term investors. As a result, of the top 10 target markets identified by institutional investors in 2005, none were commodity markets.

Point being that major capital is not flowing into Orlando to create cutting architecture and towers because is not worth the investment from a national or global scale. Someone will always build it cheaper so don't waste capital. Harsh reality from an industry perspective.

Edited September 23, 2008 by mrh3

[sunshine]

So is Miami in NYC level?

Even though we dont have cutting edge arcitecture in term of commercial office, we shouldnt limit our PAC to the same mold. It should be time to make a statement but whoever make the call did not take the opportunity.

[JRS1]

^^

Suntrust was an SOM building; BOA used first class materials; Regions is granite; so is Wachovia, and Dynetech and Lincoln are Lincoln Properties. Dynetech and Vue have firdt class designs. If Kuhn had enough capital, PTP would've been more first class-- I was told about the change order list.

City Hall and OC Cthse also look first class compared to other cities. add Grand Bohemian too.

I don't buy into that article so much based on what I see with my own two eyes downtown. granted, there are some bldgs I'd like to forget about, but what we've got is on par with many larger cities... there's just not that much of it here.

[mrh3]

I am sure that the quality will improve over time JRS1, I was using that to explain what exists now. Regarding Sunshine, Miami is a relatively supply constrained market so it will most likely fare better over time. At least for the near future.

[JRS1]

Hi everyone it's great to see this discussion come into full bloom about Orlando architectural styles. I was recently reading from a book entitled The Handbook for Commercial Real Estate Investing by John McMahan and ran across the following statement:

In commodity markets the emphasis is on job formation with real estate viewed largely as a factor of production. As a result, commodity markets generally reflect a strong progrowth and projobs philosophy. In fact the often stated public objective of these policies is to keep land costs and building rents low so that the area continues to be attractive to new firms and existing firms don't leave.

These policies are accomplished by a very gerneral plan: relatively lenient zoning restriction, largely nonunion labor, and an expedited entitlement process. The result is real estate markets with relatively low rents and high vacancy rates. This situation also encourages a considerable amount of shifting between urban nodes as new product becomes available, often at lower costs. Examples of commodity markets include Atlanta, Austin, Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Memphis, Orlando, and Phoenix.

Many institutional real estate investors believe that the public policy creating commodity markets implicity favors real estate speculators at the expense of long-term investors. As a result, of the top 10 target markets identified by institutional investors in 2005, none were commodity markets.

Point being that major capital is not flowing into Orlando to create cutting architecture and towers because is not worth the investment from a national or global scale. Someone will always build it cheaper so don't waste capital. Harsh reality from an industry perspective.

I'm misunderstanding this article. if rents are low, then why is the vacancy rate high, if new firms are being attracted there? ORL has had a low vacancy rate for office space which increased when Suntrust shifted some operations out of the tower, and when Dynetech came online.

So Orlando is a commodity market. correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Dallas, Houtson, and Atlanta all had good office product downtown; not exactly slouches, and we're lumped into that category as well.

So they are saying in cities where rents are high, more $$$ is infused into the property, denoting that there is enough $$$ for better designs.? If that's the case, then ATL, DAL, and HOU break that mold, and us to a certain extent.

[mrh3]

I'm misunderstanding this article. if rents are low, then why is the vacancy rate high, if new firms are being attracted there? ORL has had a low vacancy rate for office space which increased when Suntrust shifted some operations out of the tower, and when Dynetech came online.

So Orlando is a commodity market. correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought Dallas, Houtson, and Atlanta all had good office product downtown; not exactly slouches, and we're lumped into that category as well.

So they are saying in cities where rents are high, more $$$ is infused into the property, denoting that there is enough $$$ for better designs.? If that's the case, then ATL, DAL, and HOU break that mold, and us to a certain extent.

This is so off topic. Maybe Sunshine can start a new thread...

Basically, rents are never pushed upwards in the commodity markets like Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta. Vacancy and rental rates are relative terms. Each market has a natural full occupancy, but they tent to be higher in commodity markets. As far as rates go, I would imagine that Orlando and most of these other markets top out in the $40's-$50's PSF annually with an average in the mid-20's, where as certain constrained markets like Seattle, San Francisco, Boston or Chicago rents can approach $70-$100 PSF annually with an average closer to $50-$60 and a natural vacancy rate around 5% that can easily drop down to 1%-2%.

If there is more money to be made in a particular office market investors will act rationally and invest more money to make their product more competitive. BTW: Dynetech was an owner occupied build to suit as was the OCC. The large speculative office buildings like Suntrust, BofA, Wachovia, have not been constructed downtown Orlando in over 20 years because of this phenomena. I would image that the trend will be toward smaller buildings along the scale of the Lincoln Properties and the PTP for office buildings downtown. Additionally, if Kuhn had been able to achieve higher rents/sales per square foot he would have been able to finish the project with high/more expensive finishes. Banks will only loan you what they think they can get back.

Edited September 23, 2008 by mrh3

[sunshine]

Currently I dont really see anything in Orlando has a "radical design". Win Plamer is just ok but way too short to make any kind of noise. If the height is double and closer to the actual core, it will be great.

The closest design that Orlando had that can be considered edgy (something will appear in archictecture magazine) is the following....sadly, it is not built.

What happended to the unknown major company HQ that are supposed to move to downtown orlando? Can someone revealed what company was it now?

[jack]

Hi everyone it's great to see this discussion come into full bloom about Orlando architectural styles. I was recently reading from a book entitled The Handbook for Commercial Real Estate Investing by John McMahan and ran across the following statement:

In commodity markets the emphasis is on job formation with real estate viewed largely as a factor of production. As a result, commodity markets generally reflect a strong progrowth and projobs philosophy. In fact the often stated public objective of these policies is to keep land costs and building rents low so that the area continues to be attractive to new firms and existing firms don't leave.

These policies are accomplished by a very gerneral plan: relatively lenient zoning restriction, largely nonunion labor, and an expedited entitlement process. The result is real estate markets with relatively low rents and high vacancy rates. This situation also encourages a considerable amount of shifting between urban nodes as new product becomes available, often at lower costs. Examples of commodity markets include Atlanta, Austin, Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Memphis, Orlando, and Phoenix.

Many institutional real estate investors believe that the public policy creating commodity markets implicity favors real estate speculators at the expense of long-term investors. As a result, of the top 10 target markets identified by institutional investors in 2005, none were commodity markets.

Point being that major capital is not flowing into Orlando to create cutting architecture and towers because is not worth the investment from a national or global scale. Someone will always build it cheaper so don't waste capital. Harsh reality from an industry perspective.

I tried to say that on this forum. Of course is did not come out as eloquently.

Edited September 23, 2008 by jack

[jack]

This is so off topic. Maybe Sunshine can start a new thread...

Basically, rents are never pushed upwards in the commodity markets like Dallas, Houston, and Atlanta. Vacancy and rental rates are relative terms. Each market has a natural full occupancy, but they tent to be higher in commodity markets. As far as rates go, I would imagine that Orlando and most of these other markets top out in the $40's-$50's PSF annually with an average in the mid-20's, where as certain constrained markets like Seattle, San Francisco, Boston or Chicago rents can approach $70-$100 PSF annually with an average closer to $50-$60 and a natural vacancy rate around 5% that can easily drop down to 1%-2%.

If there is more money to be made in a particular office market investors will act rationally and invest more money to make their product more competitive. BTW: Dynetech was an owner occupied build to suit as was the OCC. The large speculative office buildings like Suntrust, BofA, Wachovia, have not been constructed downtown Orlando in over 20 years because of this phenomena. I would image that the trend will be toward smaller buildings along the scale of the Lincoln Properties and the PTP for office buildings downtown. Additionally, if Kuhn had been able to achieve higher rents/sales per square foot he would have been able to finish the project with high/more expensive finishes. Banks will only loan you what they think they can get back.

As our market gets tighter, we will see an increase in building design. The same with residential. In hyper competitive markets, you have to do whatever to get noticed.

[Hisma]

Currently I dont really see anything in Orlando has a "radical design". Win Plamer is just ok but way too short to make any kind of noise. If the height is double and closer to the actual core, it will be great.

The closest design that Orlando had that can be considered edgy (something will appear in archictecture magazine) is the following....sadly, it is not built.

What happended to the unknown major company HQ that are supposed to move to downtown orlando? Can someone revealed what company was it now?

edgy or not, i think that mass of buildings looks terrible and I'm glad it didn't get approved for pizzuti lot.

[prahaboheme]

^doesn't this go back to a point made earlier (by someone) that as Orlando continues to expand its roots it will grow a greater sense of identity? And if the lack of/presence of identity is directly related to the quality of architecture/infrastructure (which I agree it is) then don't you think downtown Orlando is right on par with this proposal?

[RedStar25]

Hi everyone it's great to see this discussion come into full bloom about Orlando architectural styles. I was recently reading from a book entitled The Handbook for Commercial Real Estate Investing by John McMahan and ran across the following statement:

In commodity markets the emphasis is on job formation with real estate viewed largely as a factor of production. As a result, commodity markets generally reflect a strong progrowth and projobs philosophy. In fact the often stated public objective of these policies is to keep land costs and building rents low so that the area continues to be attractive to new firms and existing firms don't leave.

These policies are accomplished by a very gerneral plan: relatively lenient zoning restriction, largely nonunion labor, and an expedited entitlement process. The result is real estate markets with relatively low rents and high vacancy rates. This situation also encourages a considerable amount of shifting between urban nodes as new product becomes available, often at lower costs. Examples of commodity markets include Atlanta, Austin, Charlotte, Dallas, Houston, Memphis, Orlando, and Phoenix.

Many institutional real estate investors believe that the public policy creating commodity markets implicity favors real estate speculators at the expense of long-term investors. As a result, of the top 10 target markets identified by institutional investors in 2005, none were commodity markets.

Point being that major capital is not flowing into Orlando to create cutting architecture and towers because is not worth the investment from a national or global scale. Someone will always build it cheaper so don't waste capital. Harsh reality from an industry perspective.

Brilliantly put mrh3! Finaly someone who has researched the market.

So is Miami in NYC level?

Even though we dont have cutting edge arcitecture in term of commercial office, we shouldnt limit our PAC to the same mold. It should be time to make a statement but whoever make the call did not take the opportunity.

Sunshine.... you confuse me sometimes... exactly who's statement should Orlando have made? Lets see how this thing looks in person and functions before we complain to much about it. I personaly am not sure what to make of it yet.

But... I think its potential all lies in its translucent exterior and how it is lit.... I mean imagine... those four giant coloums could light up like a Florida sunset and all their color reflect off the extended roof.... now that would be stunning....

Edited September 24, 2008 by RedStar25