Dr. P Phillips Orlando Performing Arts Center [Phase 2 Under Construction]

[sunshine]

It is Georgetown, Penang, Malaysia. Metro pop. 1.6 mil

[JFW657]

It's not get away with. You have a city that has the world's biggest sphere, multiple castles, and Tension structures, huge glass atriums, Orlando is not exactly a conservative area for architecture. The problem is that the downtown core is so stodgy. In some ways i would think that being a city based on imagination and technology, and such a commercial city, that adventurous buildings are far more suited to it than these lookalike boxes. That IS Orlando's style - imaginative, outlandish, neat designs.

I couldn't agree more. I never have understood why downtown Orlando always got stuck with such stodgy, boring, uninspired buildings. Even attempts at stepping out of that box like Dynatech are boring compared to what you see elsewhere.

But still, the PAC design is fairly sleek for this town.

And as far as Milwaukee is concerned, that town has an appreciably bigger downtown than Orlando does, & that art museum in those pictures fits right in on that waterfront where it's located.

That's a pretty cool looking building.

[JRS1]

^^

Remember, Milwaukee is close to Chicago and there are very similar architectural patterns between the two cities.

^^

Orlando, Orlando, Orlando... we've got some good architecture here... and some cr*p. a few good examples I would say are as follows:

1) FH South

2) Healthcentral

3) Millenia Mall & Bloomingdale's bldg.

4) Winnie Palmer

5) SoDo

6) Celebration Place office (tall one)

7) Team Disney

8) Contemporary

9) Peabody

10) OCCC N/S Bldg.

11) Dynetech

12) Reedy Creek bldg. at LBV

just a few--- as far as radical designs, who knows.

[RedStar25]

I wonder how much of the city will be torn down to make way for that PAC.

[cwetteland]

I've heard comments like, Orlando isn't ready ... or ... why is Milwaukee ready and Orlando not. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? They build it or you don't. There is no test to see if a city is "ready." It's either in the budget and the deciders like it, or not.

Are they saying that if they picked a "too creative" design that the citizens of Orlando would rise up shouting, "We're not ready?" I doubt it!

[palmtree73]

I've heard comments like, Orlando isn't ready ... or ... why is Milwaukee ready and Orlando not. WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? They build it or you don't. There is no test to see if a city is "ready." It's either in the budget and the deciders like it, or not.

Are they saying that if they picked a "too creative" design that the citizens of Orlando would rise up shouting, "We're not ready?" I doubt it!

AMEN! Aren't half the people here new residents who moved here within the last 10 years -- possibly from somewhere less traditional and conservative? I think we're ready.

I saw an interview on CNN with Caylee's grandmother with the ubiquitous skyline shot behind her, and my thought was "What generic city is that?" I don't think most people can identify our skyline, and all you need is that one structure, like the one in Milwaukee, to make a lasting impression.

Edited September 18, 2008 by palmtree73

[spenser1058]

more really good news on financing for the venues: the FL Supremes have said "never mind" to their earlier decision:

http://blogs.orlandosentinel.com/news_politics/

(scroll down to 2:26:40pm)

Roll on, DPAC!

[JRS1]

^^

yeah, the whole "ready" argument.

well, Orlando was ready for a giant convention center, a sprawling international airport, sprawling highways, respectable retail, large hotel projects, major event, new biomed industry, and, most recently, a downtown residential resurgence.

many people will never know that or see that for their cities.

it's a give and take. I think our dpac will be phenomenal in how it will further strengthen the City Commons area and the CBD as a whole.

[JFW657]

It's not that difficult to understsand if you think about it.

What was meant by "not being ready" is that when you look at the rest of downtown, you don't see anything close to being on the cutting edge of design like some of the buildings being used as examples of what should be or could be here. Those buildings would look outlandish, would stick out like a sore thumb & wouldn't fit into their surroundings in downtown Orlando. They would be completely out of scale & character here.

Plus, Orlando is not a particularly "mature" city either. How would a building like some of those you all are talking about be accepted in a city that has never had much to speak of in the way of performing arts or artistic vibe to begin with? A lot of being ready has to do with the prevailing mentality of a city & you can disagree all you want to, but Orlando does not have the kind of mentality for such outlandish architecture downtown. Ya gotta crawl before you can walk.

I-Drive is a different story, but DTO is not I-Drive.

Like I said.... not difficult to understand at all.

Edited September 19, 2008 by JFW657

[jack]

Ready is not the question. Are we willing to spend the cash to get it and have returns to justify the expenditures?

Edited September 19, 2008 by jack

[JFW657]

Matter of opinion I suppose.

I think "ready" is at least part of the question.

Certain things "fit" in certain communities & certain things don't.

I don't think an outlandish looking Gehry-type structure would fit into downtown Orlando.

You may agree or disagree.

[JRS1]

Chicago built the Harold Washington Publ. Library in the late '80's and made it look like a classical architecture structure. same with AT&T and the KPF 900 N. Mich, all from the same era.

pretty conservative designs for a city that is as mature architecturally as NYC...

I don't think that's the deal with Orlando downtown. They selected governmental designs for the CNL towers to bolster the City Commons center, and Grand Boh. is a classical design. Courthouse too. Shoot, not even Miami is radical in terms of designs. The most outlandish designs there are Ten Mus. Park and the PAC. Everything else is fairly conservative there, just nice ala Miami style.

the mentality downtown is conservative with the design board or whatever. but having radical designs doesn't necessarily denote the next stage in architectural evolution, when you have bigger cities still building conservative looking buildings.

[bic]

Shoot, not even Miami is radical in terms of designs. The most outlandish designs there are Ten Mus. Park and the PAC. Everything else is fairly conservative there, just nice ala Miami style.

Espirito Santo

Gehry's New World Symphony (under construction)

Federal Courthouse

Marlins Stadium (proposed)

1111 Lincoln Road (under construction)

Miami Art Museum (proposed)

Miami Beach Publix

COR Building (proposed)

[Hisma]

neat stuff. Orlando will get there some day, it's still a mid-sized city with an undersized downtown. FWIW, we're already on a good track.

I say, once the PAC & Events Center are complete, a new wave of development will crop up (hopefully the economy will improve by then), and we can get some better stuff.

btw, most of those buildings in Miami are outside of the CBD. Downtown Miami is mostly dull condo towers w/ a few office buildings mixed in. When orlando gets to that level, we'll hopefully see the good development downtown, not on the outskirts.

[NewsDude]

neat stuff. Orlando will get there some day, it's still a mid-sized city with an undersized downtown. FWIW, we're already on a good track.

I say, once the PAC & Events Center are complete, a new wave of development will crop up (hopefully the economy will improve by then), and we can get some better stuff.

btw, most of those buildings in Miami are outside of the CBD. Downtown Miami is mostly dull condo towers w/ a few office buildings mixed in. When orlando gets to that level, we'll hopefully see the good development downtown, not on the outskirts.

3 of those building are in Downtown, the Stadium is 5 blocks west of Downtown, the COR Building is up the street near midtown Miami and the design district, and the 3 other ones are in South Beach. It doesnt matter where it is, Miami has been able to go there. I could probaly come up with a couple other building in the downtown area that are what were talking about. I think in time orlando will get there, look where we are now, nobody would have expected this boom and buildings we have now as little as probaly 7 to 10 years ago.

Edited September 20, 2008 by NewsDude

[JFW657]

Classical is not the same as dull. You can have exciting classical architecture. The problem with Orlando is more that it is dull.

However, I think that you CAN mix modern designs with classical architecture quite happily. Now I don't know what you mean by "fit". If you mean blend in with everything else, I don't think it will. That's the nature of Downtown Orlando - nothing really stands out. Just another unidentifiable skyline. A strip mall of a city. So to a certain point I don't think it SHOULD fit in. We don't need cookie cutter buildings, we need something with character, whether that is classical, modern, or expressionist. Just something that has some soul to it.

I couldn't agree more. All I'm saying is that buildings like LA's Disney Concert Hall or some of those other things that lean & curve in all odd directions look, let's face it... too bizarre for Orlando.

Especially for a building like the PAC. We don't need a whole load of controversy surrounding that project.

I'm sure we'll work our way up to that type of architecture one day, but for right now in the case of the Orlando PAC, I think the level of design we're getting suits us just fine.

[demon]

Espirito Santo

Gehry's New World Symphony (under construction)

Federal Courthouse

Marlins Stadium (proposed)

1111 Lincoln Road (under construction)

Miami Art Museum (proposed)

Miami Beach Publix

COR Building (proposed)

The Publix looks just like the American Airlines Arena. Can't wait for some drunk guy to show up to Publix with tickets and ask where his seats are.

[demon]

It's not that difficult to understsand if you think about it.

What was meant by "not being ready" is that when you look at the rest of downtown, you don't see anything close to being on the cutting edge of design like some of the buildings being used as examples of what should be or could be here. Those buildings would look outlandish, would stick out like a sore thumb & wouldn't fit into their surroundings in downtown Orlando. They would be completely out of scale & character here.

Plus, Orlando is not a particularly "mature" city either. How would a building like some of those you all are talking about be accepted in a city that has never had much to speak of in the way of performing arts or artistic vibe to begin with? A lot of being ready has to do with the prevailing mentality of a city & you can disagree all you want to, but Orlando does not have the kind of mentality for such outlandish architecture downtown. Ya gotta crawl before you can walk.

I-Drive is a different story, but DTO is not I-Drive.

Like I said.... not difficult to understand at all.

Dude I stood outside of Dynatech yelling; "we're not ready! Come back in ten years." The constructions workers started throwing things at me and the cops said I was disturbing the peace or something. Government censorpship if you ask me.

In all seriousness I don't think it's a matter of being ready, I think it's supply & demand. Right now I don't think any building needs to stand out in Orlando. We don't have many corporations here to build a signature tower. And we're just starting to get residential towers. Eventually they'll need to stand out to attract residents.

[Boomer136]

From what I understand part of the design process included looking around Orlando for inspiration and to express this 'Orlando-ness' and perhaps magnify it. So what do we have? A very BIG visor. Design criteria met, I would say...

[WeNeed2Progress]

In respect to Orlando and projects in Miami, I can definitely see that 1111 Lincoln Road project with its cypress garden fit into downtown very well.

Now that the DPAC is good to go more-or-less... When the market rebounds, does anyone foresee the "Theatre District" development coming to fruition? That project, in my mind holds much potential.

[JRS1]

Espirito Santo

Gehry's New World Symphony (under construction)

Federal Courthouse

Marlins Stadium (proposed)

1111 Lincoln Road (under construction)

Miami Art Museum (proposed)

Miami Beach Publix

COR Building (proposed)

those are great shots... but I thought we were talking about downtowns...

The truth about ESP: ESP isn't radical; from the east, or west, it's just a squared off glass clad tower, with a concaved sloped wall against it on the western facade; it looks off balance; from the east, it is unrecognizeable with zero architectural features whatsoever; it's half a building; no symmetry at all. it faces Brickell and ignores the neighborhood behind it. I never understood the design logic with that; anyone can do that; it's structure isn't anything special; it's like some guy took a clay model it seems, laid a flat plank to one side, then mashed it in on that side to get that effect. that Plus One proposal, albeit a cheap knock off, didn't take a genius architect and engineer to concoct, and when you look at the surface features closely, is fairly intricate in its own right.

That new Miami art museum looks like a rip of the dpac. if dpac is bland, then so is that proposal.

the federal courthouse is no more eye catching than FH South;

the proposed Marlins stadium is the design that had the Orange Bowl in mind (I think it's there on the right); that's from a few years back;

that Gehry bldg is nothing more than exposed x-bracing or cross bracing around the rim of a square bldg; JHC & the old Merchantile Exchange cornered that market 40 years ago.

COR is a neat proposal;

the rest aren't even in downtown Miami.

-----------------

the point is that people are always hating on Orlando designs compared to super-radical designs built around the world. the fact is, that this is the US and for the most part, most all US cities have conservative architecture as a supermajority of what's built there.

as for buildings here and there in Miami that are eyecatching, I can find just as many in Orlando metro that fit that bill.

my point is with regard to downtown. Tampa is conservative, Jax is, Atlanta is, Miami is, Charlotte, Cleveland, Chicago, NYC, LA, SF etc... Chicago's twisty treat tower if built is radical. Not even Trump is radical... it's like Fairwinds on steroids times seven.

------------------

in fact, I'd go as far as to say that you would be hard pressed to find a better looking grouping of buildings of these types in Florida:

1. Bloomingdales -- retail

2. Winnie Palmer-- medical

3. *FH South-- medical

4. *Target SoDo-- non-upscale retail (if anyone has seen it lately, you'd know what I'm talking about)

the point is that we've got some nice stuff here. might as well throw in the FAA Tower at OIA as well; it blows Miami's away as far as design goes- but not DC-Reagan's tower... and LAX's is a landmark.

5. Dynetech- yes, I'm adding Dynetech to that list. it is unique and odd during the day and night; it stands out and I'd put it up there with BOA and ESP for uniqueness and nighttime lighting; not saying it's better... only that it's up there (height aside).

again, the point is that Orlando architecture doesn't suck as much as people think.

Edited September 20, 2008 by JRS1

[JRS1]

^^

replying to my own post here...

I think I was a little harsh on the ESP critique. but the point, unless lost in an other wise long post, is that 99% of the really radical projects people crave are outside the US, and that metro orlando has many innovative or uncommon looking buildings just like in some of these other cities. its just that the only uncommon bldg in downtown seems to be Dynetech-- but, add PTP to the list, except PTP suffers from the same criticism I made of ESP in Miami, so... take what I said with a grain of salt.

I guess ultimately, I would like to have seen something like those two twisty towers over that PAC pictures a few days ago in that immense project, but something like that would have to go in Parramore, b/c its so big...

I'm ok with the dopac design- as long as the other developers come through and build nice projects to compliment the building- and I'm including the two projects that are supposed to frame it along Rosalind.

[prahaboheme]

I think the term "radical" is being confused with "quality" here. Not all things radical are of good quality and not all quality architecture, most actually, is not radical.

It's all about what's contextual and DPAC fits the bill. 1111 Lincoln Rd is also contextual, and perhaps, radical--but hey, South Beach has been working at it for 30 years to get proposals like this. Orlando will get there, eventually.

[JRS1]

I think the term "radical" is being confused with "quality" here. Not all things radical are of good quality and not all quality architecture, most actually, is not radical.

It's all about what's contextual and DPAC fits the bill. 1111 Lincoln Rd is also contextual, and perhaps, radical--but hey, South Beach has been working at it for 30 years to get proposals like this. Orlando will get there, eventually.

I agree with you... but it's also a paradox, b/c, take Winnie Palmer and its funky globe lobby... I don't think there's anything in Miami that different design-wise from the norm that would make Winnie look plain by comparison.

Orlando does have these projects here and there... they just don't get as much press or respect b/c its Orlando. if Winnie Palmer was in Chicago, it would fit in like a glove...

Edited September 20, 2008 by JRS1

[JFW657]

take Winnie Palmer and its funky globe lobby... if Winnie Palmer was in Chicago, it would fit in like a glove...

If Winnie Palmer were further north in the main downtown core, it would fit like a glove.

Winnie Palmer is not very "radical" in terms of design.

Twisty towers & towers that lean this way & that like something out of a Dr. Suess book, or buildings with curvilinear walls that lean in & out at odd angles, etc. etc. are what would come to mind when using the term "radical design".

Stuff that sits right on the edge of ugly.

Those are the kinds of structures IMO, that would not be a good fit in DOWNTOWN Orlando.

On I-Drive or at Disney, by all means.